I think I know this one. Cause it's evil, right?
Why So Many Raidho Speaker For Sale?
If Raidho speakers are so great, why are there so many pairs for sale here? These are not inexpensive speakers by any means and it seems at least every other day there is a pair for sale with some people having them only a few weeks to a few months, and they are really taking a bath on them. What gives? Are they not as great as they are made to be? Is Jonathan Valin a shill for the company?
I heard the 4.1 diamond at Blink High End north of Boston and was very unimpressed. I have heard many other highly regarded speakers for much less money sounding wonderful. So, what gives?
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And now the thread has officially derailed, gone off the tracks, and plunged into the gorge below. First it was hijacked by someone whose only interest is self-promotion, and now it's becoming a commentary on people who spend amounts of money beyond the comprehension of other people. What can we talk about next? How about whether scientists named an insect "boll weevil" because it's evil, or it's purely alphabetic coincidence? |
@analogluvr , I share the same thoughts. Having freedom of choice means choosing using your own intelligence instead of magazines, dealers or other brainwash. That's the advantage of homo-sapiens to make own personal choice instead of going after someone like sheep in the heard or dog after 'master'. |
I have a better system then you can put together with true phi. There I said it. And my opinion why so many read whole speakers are available is because they are nothing impressive at all. I can't understand why people buy this stuff. It would be insulting to my intelligence if I paid this much for some of the stuff. |
It is very simple; when you want to know the real quality of a loudspeaker you need to use the same parameters over and over agian. In tests they show us different measurements. These measurements does not say anything about the real sound, stage, individual focus, diversity in sound, heights of instruments and voices. Audio is about the real quality, it is not about sales. Bose spends the most money on advertisement of all brands. Does this say anything about the real quality? No it does not. These days money and commercial impact have a big influence on how many of audio products are sold. At the end it does not garantee you anything. We agreed that these days many reviews are paid. So do these reviews say anthing about the real quality? It does not. The question is what is the real quality of a product? The way of how audio is being sold and promoted has little to do with honesty and realism. Audio is a decreasing market. The way they work, the market is getting smaller each year. When you want to change this, there is only one solution. Giving people more qualtiy for the money they spend. This is the only way to get more people interested in audio. |
[ xti16] Bo - distortion in the tweeter. Dude you just lost all credibility with me. I have yet to hear a more open 3 dimensional sound from any speaker. Maybe you should go on a worldwide tour with your magic and convince us all. BTW are the Audioquest still the best cables ever made? Yes, I must agree with xti16. If bo1972 is "hearing" distortion in tweeters his credibility must surely be questioned and yes I also remember reading bo1972's lengthy and I do mean lengthy posts on how Audioquest cables are the best ever. In truth, we are all entitled to our opinions but it seems clear that Bo's purpose here is to offer more than his opinion on Raidho speakers. Credit to bcgator, I feel he is right to suggest that without knowing total unit sales one can not draw any sensible conclusions on whether there are too many 2nd hand speakers for sale. |
bo1972 Thanks for totally hijacking my thread even though I asked you nicely to stop. This is now way off topic. Why don't you start your own thread? Please go promote yourself elsewhere in your own thread. FWIW, I could care less about your thoughts on Audioquest or Nordost. This was a thread about Raidho speakers and why there seemed to be a lot for sale used. Your on and on dribble has totally worn me out. |
The limitation in audio is that when you create a system by trial and error you still don’t know why the stage and sound is what you hear. Audio is all about properties and understanding why the sound and stage is what you hear. This makes it possible to control it a lot better. When you don’t spend time in reserach in properties, human hearing, human emotions, electricity, magnetism, smog and the acoustic it is not possible to understand and control it. The acoustics has by far the biggest influence on each audio system. That is why we have spend by far the most time in reseach of the acoustics. We understand that Tru-Fi is totally different than the trial and error way of creating an audio system. But trial and error has proven that for many people it never will work. I have spoken to many people who are in audio for a long time. I was surprised how many were not that happy with their set. I was also surprised how many people had not bought music for a long time. You can never become happy with any set without music. |
Suppose it's time to stop following this thread, as it has now been fully hijacked with self-promotion. FWIW, though I have not heard the new Monitor Audio speakers, I have much experience with Heil-based AMT tweeters, used in ADAM speakers in my studio setup. They are quite good, very honest and detailed without sounding harsh, but IMHO don't present the delicacy, air, sweetness and dimensionality I hear in the Raidho tweeter. I suppose we all hear differently, and this being a hobby for enjoyment, we should all listen for ourselves and decide what sounds best to us, in our room, and what we are willing to pay, for what are sometimes small yet important improvements. Radios aren't for everyone, and require a certain setup to sound their best. If your room requires a near field setup, they excel. Many of us buy used and if we aren't fully satisfied, or later find something we like better, and have some extra disposable income, we sell what we've got at a loss and upgrade. Sometimes we get lucky and sometimes not. I feel lucky to have found Raidhos. They work for me and are worth the price of admission (used). Are the D2s my last speaker? Who knows. But they sound better, to me, in my room than the YGs they replaced, and better than my previous Peak Consult, Piega, Genesis or Selah line arrays. Every speaker, and every component, has trade-offs. For example, I can live with a rising top (I'm getting older and my hearing there is diminishing) but could never live with over-ripe mid bass. To each their own. We can benefit from each other's experiences, on forums such as these, but we can't hear for each other... |
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I sold Nordost for over 9 years of time. I never sold a full Nordost set. Because Nordost is what we call: incomplete. We added Kimber intererconnects so the stage became deeper and wider. And we got a sharper (intimate) individual focus of instruments and voices. And a more involving (richer) mid frequencies. I never said Nordost is bad or worse. You need to understand the properties first before you can use it the best way. Audioquest is more complete what makes it easier to use and sell. I owned the Valhalla loudspeakercabel for over 12 years of time. When we did a shootout between the latest Redwood and the Valhalla, it became clear that time and properties overruled the Valhalla. Audio is all about properties and emotion. When a set owns more differerent properties you create a higher level of emotion. Each single person will choose for the most emotional (complete) sound. When we lsiten to most sets, sets are incomplete. When you add different properties to this set, it becomes a lot more emotional and intense. Music is all about emotion. The emotion is inside the music, not in your system. You need to understand first how the human emotion works and how emotion is being created. That is why we work and think by Tru-Fi. I never met a person who said my set is better than what you create by Tru-Fi. We invite people to hear our set. We explain each part you judge sound for. Each set what is being created by Tru-Fi is complete and very emotional and intense. This has nothing to do with personal taste. It is build on parameters you judge sound for. When people listen to Tru-Fi, often within 1 minute they say; this is what I want. It is sound what is based on the human hearing and emotion. Nothing more, nothing less. In over 7 years of time I brought many people from 2D to 3D sound. Beside the stage I created a lot more diversity in the whole frequency range. I gave the sound a much sharper (intimate) and realistic individual focus of instruments and voices. So many sets were incomplete and are now complete. Many of these people were always busy with their set and changing parts. When I asked them; do you buy a lot of music? Often they said; first I want my set to be ready. Many were busy for years. When you bring people from an incomplete sound/set to a Tru-Fi (complete) system it changes the use of their system completely. Our clients often use the words; addicitve sound. When a sound/system becomes physical, 3 dimensional and very involving you can’t stop listening. The emotion you can reveal of the music is so much bigger. Till januari 2016 I believed that an audio system is a matter of personal taste. Until a client of mine said: you have proven that Tru-Fi will outperfrom and be liked by each single person. When he said this: the first thing what I thought was; you are wrong. I coudn’t say anything to him. I needed time to think: after some time I said: I think audio is still a mater of personal taste. He said; no you are wrong. Because a system created by Tru-Fi owns a much higher level of emotion and intensity. You have proven this to me. At this point; for the first time I thought; he could be right. We work by properties. New products we first test to find out what the DNA is. We label it with the properties it ownes. Based on the properties and comparison with competitors we see if it is better and something we would like to sell. I had many expensive sets, but most people never will spend this kind of money on audio. I wanted to give them the same kind of exitement and intensity I already owned. By research I found out that all Monitor Audio speakers could create a deep and wide stage. This only can be achieved with amps and sources who also can create a deep and wide stage. In 2010 I was able to create a 3 dimensional system under 2000 euro. The joy and exitement this gives to people is priceless. With our way of measuring a room we were able to create a stunning sound even in the worst acoustics. That is why we want to share it now so many people will have a much higher qualtiy and emotion in sound. Diversity in the middle frequencies is the most important part to feel emotion during listening to music. All the sets we auditioned during a big audio show had almost no diversity in the middle frequencies. They don’t understand how diversity can be created or improved. This is what is needed to create a much more emotional and intense sound. This only can be reached when you are able to work and think in properties. Or you go back to trial and error. I can proof by facts and understood by each single person that a system created by trial and error is incomplete. Because this is how we work. We use different songs to explain to people what each part of Tru-Fi means and does. We want to go even further in this. We want to use different Conservatory students. We want to explain and show what intimate sound means and does with our emotion. I want to give people the same experience I had what made a huge impact on me how I use audio these days. It is our goal to give people more the same feeling as how music sounds in real. Without acoustic limitations. And played fully free and physical in a space. The big advantage about time is that it can be created for much lower prices. And now we want to share it with manufacturers so many people can use it. |
I've listened to a system in Austin that is over 400K, my friend has two very expensive systems. I went to RMAF two years ago and listened to very expensive systems. I say if you have the money, buy what ever you want and makes you happy. Ultimately I think everyone benefits from manufacturers pushing the limits and using some of their lessons learned to create more affordable products. |
@mr_m - Last year Bo never recommended speakers but if you asked about Nordost cables he would tell you how he sold them for 9 years and they were no good. Until he found Audioquest. I think Bo needs to make the rounds with various audio shows like Munich - RMAF - Axpona etc to educate us all since we have no idea what a great system sounds like!! LMAO |
I do not have any home theater and only use the Triton 1 for music. Both Stereophile and TAS reviewed the speakers in a stereo only music system and gave it rave reviews. It is the best speaker I have heard for my musical tastes and is definitely a keeper. I sold my Von Schweikert speakers after living with the Triton 1 for a few months. I have also had Vandersteen (3 different ones), DeVore, Paradigm, and Odyssey Kismet speakers and nothing compares to the Triton 1. I still have the Kismets as I will never part with them although I may loan them to my son. |
ricred1................ I never said I heard the new Monitor Audio speakers. I have heard them over the years and always found them bright and not to my liking at all. I have always preferred speakers with silk dome tweeters, that is until I got the GE Triton 1. Those have been a revelation and are the most I would ever spend on a pair of speakers. |
bo1972, there are no absolutes in audio, only preferences. I've heard several speakers that many may prefer to Monitor Audio, despite owning them and that's fine. Aerial, Magico, Rockport, Wilson, YG Acoustics, Revel, MBL, and many more come to mind. My advice to everyone is to listen and let your own ears decide, but take into consideration you're listening to a "system" not just speakers. |
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When you say that the AMT tweeter is bright I will not even take you serious. We never auditioned any tweeter with this level of authority. YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE OLD PLATINUM WITH THE NEW PLATINUM II SERIES. The differences are that huge. The ribbon tweeter of the older could become a little bright with the wrong electronics. The biggest problem in audio is that people cannot think and work in properties. We see this back that almost all shops demo Monitor Audio with 2 dimensional amps and sources. There are many products which use the word highend what only can create less than 1 metre of stage depth. THIS IS A HIFI STEREO PARAMETER. But when audio does not say this, you can say anything. And people will believe it is highend audio. |
Every driver has its pros and cons, Both AMT/Ribbon if done right can sound very dynamic and push far more SPL than Fabric domes. However I do prefer Fabric dome for music listening and AMT for Theatre rooms that require much higher SPL levels. Horns if done right wont sound like horns at all and will give you many more pros than cons, especially with Speed and Dynamics. A good example of a well engineered Horn Speakers are the Classic Audio Loudspeakers from John Wolff. |
We always visit shops, distributers or show with several people. We always speak with many people in audio after shows. It is not an opinon just by me. I would like to see that audio will use parameters. Because differences in stage depth and width between speakers is huge. The only thing you can read is that it can create depth. And those who are not bale to create depth, you won’t read. When music is being played in a much bigger holographic stage, the music creates a totally different impact on your emotion. The same you can be told about individual focus of instruments and voices. The AMT tweeter and other drivers used in the new Monitor Audio Platinum series showed us how big the difference are between it and the Wilson Audio Sasha. You can hear details which were not there with the Sasha. Beside this the energy of all the instruments is fully free of the loudspeaker. When a piano attack is being played at the same height as you hear in real it had a differerent effect on you during lsitening. It is a feeling of exitment. When trumpets and high hats are played a lot higher as in real listening to music is played in a different league. This is what highend audio needs. A sound and stage as in real. Music and audio is all about emotion. The material and techniques Monitor Audio uses in the new Platinum series give you much more layers and intensity during listening. It is all about timing and response. Read this review: http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl300-ii-loudspeaker#XH1LEwHdabBkqVQ5.97 |
stereo5 - You will find there is no speaker fits all because we all have different taste and expectations. I'll go as far as to tell you the downside to Raidho that I've noticed. If you want a concert in your home Raidho's are not for you. If you want bass that kicks you in the chest Raidho's are not for you. If you can't set them up properly (ideally at least 9ft apart and a good 3 or more ft from the back wall and a couple of ft from the sides) you will never hear the magic they are capable of. They do have a pretty tight sweet spot to hear the magic. IMO the magic is clarity that sounds so natural. Like you can tell what skin the drummer has and if he is using a plastic tip on his sticks or not. They disappear and sound so open like no other speaker I've ever heard. Very 3D as to where all the performers are standing or sitting. I feel like I'm sitting at an intimate live setting not a rock concert in a large stadium. But that comes with a price and honestly I don't think anyone pays anywhere near retail. I don't think any private seller is losing very much when selling (maybe 10 -15%) |
Mapman you are right, the kef ls50 are amazing , although I like my technic one driver, Iam waiting to buy use for collection.Audiophile they do change gear more often, especially those who can afford them.iam sure the Raidho are excellent speakers, but also how you use them...I would love to own them.. but can't afford them... |
Scansonic are indeed "the poor mans Raidho" ... the blurb I heard by the distro (at AXPONA) was that "Scansonic have a lot of the Raidho DNA" since Michael Borreson designed both - which seems to be a reasonable claim. Hearing that top-of-the-line Raidho-Aavik-Ansuz system all together (at Blink) was great, but it's hard to judge exactly *what* I heard other than I heard one bad muvva of a system, unobtainable by a mere mortal like myself ... but there certainly is some deep discounting to be had for ex-demos in the high-end in general - per A'gon listings. One thing I *cannot* criticize about Raidhos is the top end range. I live with these speakers and that tweater and they work wonderfully well for all sorts of music (from [glorious] pre-war Delta blues to modern minimal techno dub), so the comment by bo1972 is one I really cannot agree with. But that's OK, each to their own. I must admit - I was also torn between Rockports and Raidhos. I will certainly demo Rockports along with Raidho's when I next upgrade. |
The last time we auditioned Raiho speakers it was done by the distributer. During listening we heard ( again) the distortion in the tweeter. We had the same experience in some shows at the past. There was some depth, but for these prices I want a holographic stage to die for. And not just some depth. The only reason why they use small drivers is based on the looks. They are small, but the drivers are not capable of playing loud. Often the sound became stressed but also harsh in the mid en high frequencies. Listen to an AMT tweeter, and you never want any Diamond dome or beryllium dome back. With the cheaper Mcintosh the 802D3 sounded stressed and very unpleasent. For the Utopia line of Focal we had several demos with the same kind of problems in the high frequencies. Even the expensive Sonus Faber showed us many sss in the high frequencies. It is time to quit dome tweeters. Ribbon is a nice technique, but compare it to AMT. And you will think differently. It sounds so much more natural without any stress. The stage is so much bigger. When you hear the same music with all the differences in height of the instruments and voices the music is played in a different league. This league needs to be played and heard. And then we will talk again! |
I did hear them at the open house at Blink. I probably ran into you and didn't notice. That's one of the problems with revealing speakers, it's hard to tell how much the electronics and source come into play. When I first posted and said the D series, I believe I was mistaken. I have seen a mix of all the series, not just the D. I also have seen a lot of Scansonic (poor mans Raidho perhaps?) too. Of course the Scansonic has no bearing on the Raidho. I had been thinking in relatively small amounts of speakers sold in proportion to the ones for sale on Audiogon. I wrongly assumed most couldn't or wouldn't purchase the really expensive ones due to high cost. As much as I love music, I would never spend as much on a set of speakers than what I spent on our home. Then again, there are some very wealthy people in the world and to them 225K is like 2,500.00 to most of the rest of us. |
I am a Raidho owner (D3s), and as such I have an interest in knowing what the "stats" are regarding volume and prices here on a'gon. It seems that the number of D-level speakers offered for sale was (and remains) pretty small (including dealers). Not sure exactly what evidence stereo5 has for stating "there so many pairs for sale". As far as I see it the volume was small and commensurate with the price-band (very high = not many, very low = lots). However, stereo5 does make a valid point wrt price/quality -- no-one will ever get that equation fully solved. I was probably in attendance when Mr. stereo5 heard the D5s (there was an open house at Blink). They sounded good, but were we also hearing the mega-high-end Aavik mono blocks and pre-amp which were used also? Staging and depth was generally terrific but a couple of highly rhythmic tracks did seem to lack a certain "punch" -- but then again adding a pair of JL subs into the mix could be a winning combo (per Jonathan Vallin's recent review). One observation I have wrt pre-owned availability & numbers ... I certainly have noted a large number of D'Agostino Momemtums for sale (not only in US but also in UK). Do I read anything sinister here or is this an artifact of D'Agostino's market share/dominance? Ditto for Wilson speakers? Finally: bo1972's comment wrt use of diamond of a load of codswallop - the drivers in D-series have fully diamond coatings, diamond coating over ceramic. This is achieved using a very high Voltage bath which "fires" carbon atoms at exceedingly high velocity [resulting in the impact pressure being exceedingly high]. This technology is well-established in scientific instrument manufacture (i.e., for electronic microscopes) and does take a LOT of energy and a lot of time (ceramic "coating" takes about 5-6 days for a 6in driver and diamond coating adds an extra few days on to of that). |
I'm not a stats guy - math was never my strong suit - but seems like without them we're flying blind in this thread, and most other threads that ask why a particular brand is being frequently sold off. I don't know anything about Raidho's sales figures, but hypothetically if you told me they sold 1000 pairs of speakers per year, all models combined, and at any given time there were 50 pairs available here then I'd take notice. But if they sell 30,000 pairs (and again, this is hypothetical, I have no idea what they sell annually) and at any given time there are 15 pairs available, who cares? At the time this thread was started, was the quantity available for sale statistically significant, or anecdotally meaningless? Without numbers we just don't know... |
To me throughout my high quality audio experience, the Audioconnection of Verona NJ (John Rutan) is always an example of perfect product lines, perfect management and solid knowledge behind. They carry products for ALL budgets and the products are very good. Bo, If you need to learn(not too late even in mid-40's) jump on John's site and see what's being offered around at any particular price range to form your opinion solid instead of 'salad of phrases' that are often not supported by knowledge, or simply simply unrelated and dull. |
bo - the unstoppable, in $225 range there are far more than enough speakers that sound very nice and solid! not sure about you, but if I pay $225 for speaker pair, I'll expect it to be great. Seems like you show extremely depleted knowledge about quality speaker brands on budget and need more learning experience. Otherwise you will be probably still posting salad of phrases you've learned in the past without understanding them in depth capice? |
Regarding Raidho, off the cuff, probably just typical market stuff. Too many sold for too much by market standards. I have never heard these that I know of but I am sure they will find the right market price eventually. If many out there not being sold then cost is still just too high still versus the competition, that’s all. If people paid way too much that’s unfortunate but happens all the time. These are luxury products. Popularity can wane over time for no good reason especially when lots of competition (which there is). Live and learn. Remember the housing deal back in 2008? |
You are not able to look further as well. It is not about me, it is about others. Your Government needs to look after you. Like audio needs to look after the people who love music and audio. Products needs to be created for the 'real' needs of people. And not created for own personal benefit. When you look after other people, you will get back more respect and you will sell more. It is all about focus. They are blinded by the money. That is why they focus on short term distance. It is all about looking further. The main reason why audio is still at a low level is based on the fact that they are not able to look further. I can garantee you that when you look further you will understand that there is a lot more. At this moment only a very low level in quality is being used in audio. Only research and the gutts to look further will create new inside information and knowledge. This will give people a lot more quality in sound than what they give to you at this moment. The sound always will tell the truth! |