roberjerman1,920 posts12-17-2018 8:38amThe power of advertising! Tell enough lies long enough and people will believe the lies. Report this
>>>>>Huh? You are Exhibit A of your own statement. 😬
>>>>>Huh? You are Exhibit A of your own statement. 😬
Why Power Cables Affect Sound
I just bought a new CD player and was underwhelmed with it compared to my cheaper, lower quality CD player. That’s when it hit me that my cheaper CD player is using an upgraded power cable. When I put an upgraded power cable on my new CD player, the sound was instantly transformed: the treble was tamed, the music was more dynamic and lifelike, and overall more musical.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
This got me thinking as to how in the world a power cable can affect sound. I want to hear all of your ideas. Here’s one of my ideas:
I have heard from many sources that a good power cable is made of multiple gauge conductors from large gauge to small gauge. The electrons in a power cable are like a train with each electron acting as a train car. When a treble note is played, for example, the small gauge wires can react quickly because that “train” has much less mass than a large gauge conductor. If you only had one large gauge conductor, you would need to accelerate a very large train for a small, quick treble note, and this leads to poor dynamics. A similar analogy might be water in a pipe. A small pipe can react much quicker to higher frequencies than a large pipe due to the decreased mass/momentum of the water in the pipe.
That’s one of my ideas. Now I want to hear your thoughts and have a general discussion of why power cables matter.
If you don’t think power cables matter at all, please refrain from derailing the conversation with antagonism. There a time and place for that but not in this thread please.
845 responses Add your response
tobor00735 posts12-17-2018 9:13am"A 2014 study published in Science Translational Medicine (Harvard medical school) explored placebo effect by testing how people reacted to migraine pain medication. The researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack." That percentage would pretty much cover the " significant" difference some people are hearing. Spend the extra money on room tweaks. >>>>I can’t go along with your detective work, slim. The drug industry has no relationship to the audio industry. There are many more variables involved in audio testing, variables that affect the sound, including real differences between X and Y, for example. Also it would be just plain silly to believe 50% of audiophile reports are due to the placebo effect. Do the math. This is standard naysayer fare. |
@david_ten Why would multi-thousand dollar components come without adequate power cables? n80 Good choice of word in 'adequate.' That's exactly what they are: adequate. That makes less sense than Geoff's explanation that the big buck manufacturers aren't aware of the power cable market. Again, they build their components to the highest of standards, not compromising on anything, but then just sticking an 'adequate' power cord in the box? It just makes no sense at all. |
No problems at all Geoff. My power cables are awesome. I think the folks that made my gear knew what they were doing. Seems a pity that apparently many of them are in the dark about this cable thing. Now, having no credibility is a problem. But admitting that you have that problem isn't going to help no matter how many steps are in the program.That ship has sailed. |
tobor007
"A 2014 study published in Science Translational Medicine (Harvard medical school) explored placebo effect by testing how people reacted to migraine pain medication. The researchers discovered that the placebo was 50% as effective as the real drug to reduce pain after a migraine attack."This is a red herring. The "significant" differences many audiophiles report hearing happen to those who are pretty sure in advance that they actually won't hear any difference. Many real audiophiles start as skeptics, but are willing to experiment. (Of course, some audiophiles claim to be skeptics, but won't experiment with things such as power cables. Those aren't genuine skeptics.) |
“Now, having no credibility is a problem. But admitting that you have that problem isn't going to help no matter how many steps are in the program.That ship has sailed.” n80, well said. Its very ignorant to think all high end equipment manufacturers with access to excellent test equipment are stupid and have no clue there’s a huge market for aftermarket power cords. rickjamesdj, I see no one responded to your very valid question. As one person mentioned, the contribution to sound quality, if any, is most likely due to lower noise floor by providing better shielding from EMI and RF from companion equipment. In my experience, a dedicate line is a lot more effective than a better power cord. As for using conditioners, many suggest plugging right into the wall especially if a dedicated line is available. |
stevecham3,001 posts12-17-2018 11:30amThe propogation of electronic signals through wire happens by way of electric fields, not photons. The electons move relatively slowly while the electric fields propogate at light speed. >>>>I like that you keep coming back for more. The electronic signals are propagated as electromagnetic waves. Didn’t I just explain that? Electric fields are a different animal. Your Piled Higher and Deeper (PhD) assuming you have one which I am actually starting to doubt must not have been physics or electronics. 😬 |
For those of you who have already reached your power cord decisions, there’s a limited time opportunity on A’gon which will end in just a few days… Sure they’re $24k but that’s for a PAIR and includes free GROUND shipping. You won’t believe the sound these cables are capable of producing! "It started with an earthquake-like rumble in the sub-frequencies, then exploded with midrange ferocity and peaked with piercing sustained highs!" Never leave receipts where your wife can see them…. |
kosst_amojan1,854 posts12-17-2018 3:43am@geoffkait Sorry, but the electrons are moving and it’s not accurate to say that their agregate motion equals null motion. Photons are the force carrier that move them and that’s extremely important, but the motion of the electrons is what’s really going on on. All one needs to do is understand how a BJT transistor works. The mechanism of their operation is the physical motion of electrons between differently doped regions. A P doped regions doesn’t have photon holes. It has electron holes. The physics of a transistor are dictated by the motion of electrons. >>I automatically defer to you when it comes to doping. 😵 But seriously, I know all about artificial atoms, thank you very much, which have precious little to do with signal propagation through wire. Nice try at diversion, however, and trying to present yourself as very knowledgeable. It will be our little secret. 🤭 |
kalali1,530 posts12-17-2018 11:52am“Now, having no credibility is a problem. But admitting that you have that problem isn’t going to help no matter how many steps are in the program.That ship has sailed.” n80, well said. Its very ignorant to think all high end equipment manufacturers with access to excellent test equipment are stupid and have no clue there’s a huge market for aftermarket power cords. >>>>Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway. Follow? For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord. The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market. |
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@geoffkait said: "
Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables" Okay." Ignorant" then. Why buy gear from ignorant manufactures who don't know that a different power cable will make their gear sound better. "or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway." What? Why in the heck would they care what you do to their component after you buy it? " Follow?" No! Your explanation is pure nonsense. "For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord." Bingo! This is probably THE finest explanation of the phenomenon of high end power cords. It basically states that no matter how good the OEM cord is the true audiophile (insert gullible rube there if you wish) is going to change it to something else. Now I get it. Thank you. " The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market." That logic does not follow. In a world of $24,000 interconnects and $40,000 speaker cables and $500,000 home audio speakers there is NO SUCH THING as pricing audiophile equipment out of the market. |
@geoffkait said: " Nobody accused them of being stupid. I accused them of being either ignorant of high end cables" Okay." Ignorant" then. Why buy gear from ignorant manufactures who don’t know that a different power cable will make their gear sound better. >>>>Agree. Although, they might be really smart about circuits and topology. Just because they don’t know about audiophile power cords or fuses or directionality does not prevent them from having a product that people will buy. I won’t but someone will. The amp wil still work. It’s a question of why are amp designers so slow on the uptake? They are probably nice people. It’s why I sometimes say amp designers are hyper-focused on circuits. When you have blinders on you miss the big picture. At least you seem to grudgingly admit the word stupid has a different meaning from the word ignorant. "or not wishing to spend money on an expensive power cord that would be replaced anyway." What? Why in the heck would they care what you do to their component after you buy it? Because they have to pay for the aftermarket power cord. Every cost gets multiplied. If they were trying to win Best of Show and they were aware of audiophile power cords you’d think they would use one at the show, but they don’t. They don’t even burn in the speakers or electronics before show time. Does that make any sense? " Follow?" No! Your explanation is pure nonsense. Oh, well. At least I tried. "For example, and I have no idea how much the top of the line Pangea power cord costs, but if a high end amp that I purchased came with a Pangea power cord the very first thing I would do is replace it with a real high end power cord." Bingo! This is probably THE finest explanation of the phenomenon of high end power cords. It basically states that no matter how good the OEM cord is the true audiophile (insert gullible rube there if you wish) is going to change it to something else. >>>>You should probably stick to photography. No offense. Now I get it. Thank you. Yuk, yuk! " The cost of really good power cords would place the amp maker completely out of the market." That logic does not follow. In a world of $24,000 interconnects and $40,000 speaker cables and $500,000 home audio speakers there is NO SUCH THING as pricing audiophile equipment out of the market. >>>>High end manufacturers have to know a priori what the market is for their product. If the don’t have a finance/business guy on board they won’t survive long. It’s not a world of $24,000 cables and $40,000 speakers. That is perhaps 2% of high end products. Besides $250,000 speakers would have made a better argument. - your friend and audio insider, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica Advanced Audio Concepts |
It amazes me how a subject such as this still continues, and brings such diversity. I have NEVER purchased a pc, ic, fuse, or isolation product, prior to evaluating them. As a member of the professional audio community, I was always able to get " loaners ", and never imagined anything I heard. None of that psychobabble bs, that what I was hearing is all in my head. And, although I think I am a smart and experienced guy in the 2 channel audio field, I solely rely on my ears, and not the photons, or any of that other crap some of you guys are talking about. I will say it again. " There are different kinds of us audio guys / gals ( consumers ). *** Those that are open minded, and use their ears ( like myself ). And of those, some who hear differences, and some who do not. *** Those that have never tried to listen ( experimented ), and are somewhat clueless to the audible effects of such devices. *** And then you have the " trolls " such as roberjerman and kosst, who fight against us " listeners ", demanding scientific data and proof, but will continue to battle, likely because of manhood issues, as it cannot be anything else. It just amazes me. Enjoy ! MrD. |
@mrdecibel "but will continue to battle, likely because of manhood issues" Well that’s a bit trollish too wouldn’t you say? And while I certainly respect the ability of those who claim exceptional hearing and the ability to be objective through subjective experience it isn’t totally fair for everyone or even anyone to simply trust the individual who claims such talent that is completely immune to the various preconceptions and variances the rest of us have to deal with, psychological or otherwise, but can in no way reproduce it for the skeptic. |
@mrdecibel "I am in no way being trollish" You questioned someone’s manhood issues in a thread about power cables. Maybe trollish was the wrong word. But there is a word for it. "" The rest of us have to deal with " ? Really ? Are you kidding me ?" No, not at all. This is what you said: "As a member of the professional audio community, I was always able to get " loaners ", and never imagined anything I heard. None of that psychobabble bs, that what I was hearing is all in my head. And, although I think I am a smart and experienced guy in the 2 channel audio field, I solely rely on my ears" It sounded to me like you were setting yourself apart. You know, "professional" and loaners always available and "never imagined anything you heard" and above the "psychobabble bs". So if you’re setting yourself above then you have to be above someone right? Like those who disagree with you? Look, I don’t have any beef with you. Just taking what you’ve said at face value. Sorry if I got it completely wrong. |
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@mrdecibel As a member of the professional audio community, I was always able to get " loaners ", and never imagined anything I heard. None of that psychobabble bs, that what I was hearing is all in my head. That’s amazing! I guess all the scientific evidence for human bias doesn’t apply to you. How’s the weather on whatever planet you are from? :)
I’m glad you exhibit such virtue! That of being so "open minded." Can you tell me: How "open minded" are you to the possibility that you are wrong in perceiving any of those differences you think you heard? Because you certainly don’t come off as "open minded." There is after all endless reams of scientific evidence concerning human bias and perceptual error, that you seem to be ignoring. Are you open minded to what humans have learned about perceptual biases? |
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N80. I am not fond of the power cables your brother in law gave you, but here is an idea. Your preamp and amp have iec inlets, with these upgraded power cords in use at this time. I am sure you have a few " standard " iec power cords, from say a desktop, that you can substitute them with. Make the change of the power cords, Listen for a few days, and get back to " us " with your findings. This will let all of us know what kind of " listener " you are ? A simple, no cost challenge. Actually,don’t do it for me, as I am way past that, but, do it for you, as the experience will be enlightening. And here is the thing. And here are your choices. #1 : You will not do it, nor feel like doing it. # 2 : You will do it, but the results might be, you either hear a difference, or you don’t. # 3 : If you hear differences, you could speak about them here. Or not. No hard feelings to any of you, but I am sure many of you have a " gift " in some area of your life. 2 channel audio is mine. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Costco, electrons do not give rise to photons in a copper conductor. Have you been hitting the crack pipe again? Electrons in a copper conductor are simply charge carriers. The photons are the tranmitted signal. Earth to Costco! 👩🏻🚀 The point is, getting back down to Earth for a moment, is that electrons are not (rpt not) the electric signal or the music signal. And electrons do not travel at any significant velocity in a conductor. If fact in an AC circuit since they move back and forth with alternating current their net velocity is zero, obviously. |
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Prof, what components in your rig has iec inlets, that you have tried aftermarket cords ? Your CJ Premier 12 monos certainly do not ( which, btw, are not bad cords, as I have dissected a pr. of them with better cords ). I am interested to know, as well as the pcs you tried. Thank you, and....Enjoy! MrD. |
From the beginning of time, men, in particular, have argued, combated, debated, etc., stating " mine is bigger ", or " mine is better ". Nothing new. Psychology 101, as I do not have to tell you. This lead me to my statement. And, if you followed the 2 specimens of men I mentioned, you will understand. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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mrdecibel I have tried a variety of Shunyata cables. I have friends who have loaned me other cables over the years (mostly...if I happen to need a power cable). I believe Audioquest was among them. Not used on my CJs of course, but on CD players (e.g. Meridian 508.20, 508.24 DAC, Meitner DAC, Bryston amplifier, an older tube pre-amp..... Cheers! |
