Why not horns?
Learsfool - You are certainly welcome. I had high hopes that horn lovers would come out of the woodwork and learn about each other and share their info about who is making and offering horn products and about shortcuts, bargains or mods that might further the appreciation of what horns can do. We got some info about Klipsch mods and some comments from horn designers and some people like Herman who really is adventurous and innovative. But mostly we went round and round defending our interest against an unnecessary and unwelcome onslaught of naysayers who justified their intrusion by pointing out repeatedly the title of the thread. All in all - not very successful. As for the $5000, I threw that figure out there as a contrast to the $60,000 you often see for quality horn systems. There isn't much finished product for sale under $10,000, even used. Unless you purchase vintage items like Altec, Klipsch and JBL. I used an old pair of JBL L-200s as bass modules, bypassing the crossovers and horns inside them and hard-wiring the woofers to a power amp. I used the preamp I already had and bought a DBX Drive Rack PA for about $400. Then I used an amp I already had to drive my horns. So my rig didn't cost me very much. The horns and compression drivers were about $3500 at the time including shipping from Canada. If you get the urge at some point, you might find that you can add a better horn to your Cornwalls. Or you might have very good results for a lot less money by investigating some of the aftermarket upgrade options available for Klipsch. I have no experience with them but the reports seem sober and realistic and numerous. Or you could just decide that you are happy and keep on keeping on. If you are in western Colorado sometime, you are welcome to hear my horns. |
Hi Macrojack - many of us cannot afford the current horn designs, even if they are "only" $5000. I think I paid about that for my entire modest system. No, it probably isn't the very best out there, and yes, I do wish I could hear some of these newer designs. However, no one anywhere near me carries them, so I don't really know when I am going to be able to hear them. As for Altec and Klipsch, their older designs still beat anything else I have ever heard in any store or home I have ever been in. That's not to say I am closed to another possibility at all, I am merely stating the fact. I have read quite a bit about these newer designs, here and on other forums, but I can only speak to what I have actually heard. I, for one, thank you for starting this thread and for trying to help spread the word about horn designs, which have really gotten a bad rap very unjustifiably. |
Maybe I'm too dumb to appreciate that humor or maybe those jokes aren't funny but either way I'd like to steer this discussion, if there is one, back to the opportunities and options that horns can provide. It would seem that the guys who don't like horns were obstinate enough to chase away the few who do. Too bad. |
WTF was Herr Loewe thinking last night with his tactics? Jeez.! Now I am not saying I know footie better than him, but he played a wait and break game, totally the wrong tactics IMHO, they (the Germans) needed to get on the ball and press , not sit back and let the Spaniards (possibly the most complete 'footballing' side at present) take control and dictate the pace of the game, the odds on keeping a clean sheet when Spain had so much of the ball is slim. Shame they waited until ther knock out stage to perform so badly and without direction, so un-Germanic. Joke: David Blain is said to be gutted because his record of doing sod all in a box has been beaten by Wayne Rooney. and another.................... I met a fairy the other day who granted me one wish, I said 'I want to live forever'! 'Sorry' she said fairy I'm not allowed to grant wishes like that'! 'Fine' I said 'I want to die when England win the world cup' 'you crafty bastard ' said the fairy. |
There are hobbyists and professionals out there in Audiophile Village who have lifelong experience with every horn made by Klipsch, JBL, Altec, Electrovoice, RCA, Western Electric, etc. who have found ways to surpass the performance levels and/or practicality available from those companies. Many of these people are alive and walking among you. Whether or not you choose to notice and avail youtself of what they have to offer is, of course, up to you. I do not have comprehensive knowledge of all of these designers and experimenters but I had hopes when I started this thread that many would be named. This hasn't happened. Bruce Edgar was something of a pioneer, not so much for what he was doing but more for the fact that he managed to get some light shone on his products. Jim Smith, through his networking and marketing skills, brought a lot of attention to Avant Garde horns. Neither sold much to the masses because horns, as stated earlier, need to be of a certain size and good ones tend to be expensive. When entry into the world of sophisticated horn design is mid five figures, many will be reluctant or unable to explore. I was in the second category. Speakers priced well above $25000 per pair were way out of my league. But a combination of luck and a lucid moment conspired to put me in possession of world class performance for under $5000. So here are some names and products to investigate. There is Classic Audio Reproductions, which Ralph Karsten owns and recommends. Earl Geddes can be found through his Circle on Audio Circle. He has a pretty big following of DIY guys because he sells kits and his forum provides all manner of assistance to his customers. Tom Danley is considered by many to be the leading light in horn design today. He is more focused on medium sized venue desgn, particularly churches, but his Unity drivers and Tapped Horns have proven to be useful innovations for some audiophiles. Clayton Shaw of Emerald Physics makes an open baffle/horn hybrid that sells at a reasonable price and has won many converts. Audiokinesis also works with waveguides and since he is present here I will not presume to synopsize his work, as I've probably already botched some details elsewhere. And then there is Bill Woods who many feel makes the purest mid-range horn currently available. If you are clever and lucky enough, you can create a very affordable and successful hybrid using Bill's horns and a quality bass cabinet. I'm sure this is not a comprehensive list. In fact, I just remembered Oris horns as an option I overlooked above. Certainly there are many others. Do you know of any that I failed to mention? Or can you add to what I've said? Feel free to correct any misinformation or oversight. But let's get our heads together and share what we know about current horn offerings. Aren't you tired of the same old recycled and boring products from the famous brands? Isn't it time to stop letting the magazines tell you what you can like? There is a quantum leap at your disposal if you care to avail yourself of it. |
WOW!!!! Such precision. The Spanish will be making orange juice in the final. They have gotten better in every game I've seen. I think they will make things really miserable for the Diving Dutch -- unless the referee plays their game and that isn't something we can rule out in light of the uneven officiating so far. Today we had a no cards no how guy and that seems preferable to the gift wrapped penalty kicks, offside no-calls and calls, and the disallowed goals provided by some of the refs so far. I believe Bert Doppenberg is Dutch, isn't he? |
Jonk - Which Altec models are in the ~$2K range that sound as good or better than say the KHorns? I've heard Altecs only twice. Once highly modified (Altec drivers in another box) in someone's home, they sounded excellent. First time I heard horns and a big reason I now own KHorns. The other time was at a show where some guy had them open baffel, bi-amped with SS on the bottom and 300b's on top, electronic crossovers, the whole 9 yards. That sounded pretty good too. I don't think either setup gave me a hint of what a pair of Altecs (Model 15, Model 19...I'm guessing now) would sound like. |
The three top Klipsch Heritage models are wonderful. The Klipshorn, Lascala and Belle all deserve to be listened to. The midrange horn throats are properly designed and do not give you that "honk" sound that you might get from Altecs(at a reasonable listening distance). My experience with Altecs and many other horn designs with large throats(not all)is that you need to be a good distance away from them. It is unfair to say pass up Klipsch. Many people, including myself, enjoy them . I am in no way suggesting that Altecs are bad or inferior. I have heard them good and bad. I also have heard the Heritage series sound bad(not when I got through with them). I am standing by the 3 Heritage models I mentioned in defense. Although I like the Cornwall and Heresy somewhat, I do dot think they are in the same category. So there you have it ! |
Pass up Klipsch buy Altecs. Only reason so many suggest Klipsch is they made allot of home loudspeakers. So more have experienced the poorer performing Klipsch models. But I know you will not listen enjoy your Klipsch. Keeps Altecs more affordable for folks in the know. So ya buy Klipsch forget Altec leave those for me. |
Interesting that soccer should come up in this thread, because like soccer Horns or planers, stats, etc. are a matter of taste. Trying to convince someone who does not like horns that they should like horns is like trying to convince someone who does not like soccer that they should like soccer...a tough sell to say the least. And like the many other sports that we all have available to us, so too do we have other types of speakers. 3 things I learned about soccer during this year's World Cup: 1. It's a lot of fun to watch, and we in the US are fools not to join the party, at least once every 4 years (I don't mean participating with a team, I mean fans paying attention. For every minute of WC news coverage, there's 10 minutes of where will Lebron James end up). 2. The stereotype of the soccer player taking a dive and pretending he's injured is not true. It's way worse than that. 3. I hated instant replay, particularly in American football because it stops the game and destroys momentum looking at every play under a microscope. If what I've seen during the World Cup is the alternative, bring on the microscope! |
My observation with Walsh drivers like those in the OHMs is that they excel most on a good system with recordings that have a lot of mid-range energy. The large surface area of the Walsh driver available for conveying midrange compared to most other drivers is the reason I believe. Big band and large brass ensembles is where this is most evident. I find many Duke Ellington recordings to be absolutely mesmerizing, for example. The power dynamics and brashness of the orchestra just come through in full bloom within a huge soundstage where everything is laid out perfectly for digestion with relatively little or no fatigue even at high volumes. No easy trick, even for horns! |
Macrojack....Mr Decibel here. On a review here on Audiogon of the Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers, the reviewer states " Horns, in particular, along with drum kits and guitars(both electric and acoustic)have an uncanny natural quality that comes extremely close to sounding like real instruments playing in real space. This reviewer had the Ohm 2000s for a 120 day trial. It was a rave review. He also speaks of PRAT(pace,rhythm,attack and timing)being fine. He kept the Ohm Walsh 2000s. You started this thread asking "Why not horns?". I good friend of mine who exchanges home visits(listening sessions) with me has top of the line B&W s. We enjoy each others systems, but ultimately he prefers his and I prefer mine. Interesting though, he needs to readjust his listening back at his place, because he speaks about the sessions at my place each and every time. He still stays with the B&W. I do not try to sway him in any way to make a change, nor will he change me. I have been on so many forums over my years, and the forums I enjoy most are those of acceptance and sharing of thoughts,information and experiences. Some here do show that. However, people are entitled to their opinion, which is fine. I have kept away from this for a while now, but realistically, it is the bashing, the insulting, that takes away my enjoyment. I have been around the audio block for a long time. I consider myself and audiophile(hobbyist who seeks high quality audio reproduction through means of high quality electronics). This includes the entire reproduction chain, critically the speaker/room interaction. I also consider myself a music listener. It is to this end that I am an audiophile. I can listen on my pool deck, my boom box, my car system and elsewhere and tap my feet to music that is playing. My main system , however, takes me to a "representation" of the event, as " I " want it to be. I have helped many many people over the years put systems together, some have acquired horns, others (as my friend with the B&Ws)not. Some with tubes, some with ss. Some with analog/digital, etc. I easily accept that not everyone is in my camp, nor do I expect them to be. I believe you are quite happy with your system. While this is the case, just listen and enjoy. I do......Thank you.....Mr DB. |
No comments? No notice? Jonathan Weiss or Weisselk, as he's known on Audiogon is sort of like the Anthony Bourdain of audio. He has similar gourmet leanings but that is not why I make the reference. Jonathan, like Tony, has an obsession that he travels to feed. Or he used to. Before Oswald's Mill. Once he started that up, the audio world, or it's most retro cutting edge facets, started beating a path to his door. If you visit the Oswald's Mill website you can see a chronicling of The Tastings. Those are a series of get togethers Jonathan hosted at his Mill in north central Pennsylvania annually. The most hard core hobbyist DIY people converge from near and far with their latest projects and strangest innovations. Read about them on the site. You can also check out the OMA forum which I know DanEd reads. The horn world is a bit lonely. Few get involved and many mistakenly believe they've seen and rejected it. Fact is there are few experts and, unlike conventional box type speakers, horns require a tremendous depth of knowledge and experience that hardly anyone explores. The cookbooks that exist for box speakers haven't been provided for horns. I've come to believe that horns are a relatively untapped (insider joke) resource that hold a potential well beyond anything that can still be extracted from box or planar designs. |
The Dutch should have to much in their arsenal for Uruguay, although the Dutch have always been a bit suspect in the knock out stages of the World Cup, they need another Cruyff! Spain can and do play beautiful football (if they show up that is) with their marvelous array of talent, but have been under performing, especially Torres who has been truly woeful. The Germans are playing like a team on a mission with verve and passion, I mean how many teams could stop Argentina from having a sniff of the ball, never mind score a goal?. So, its Germany for me to beat Holland in final. I hope FIFA pick Mr Howard Webb as the referee, a no nonsence kind of chap who is a top notch referee for the final. |
Of course you don't like vuvuzelas - they're horns, after all! I'd be worried about Uruguay if I were you. They've won two more World Cups than the Dutch. They even won one in Brazil. Plus everything is upside down. Both Germany and Spain were upstaged in the Group stage and Spain was eliminated in one of the biggest upsets in history. Seems plain enough that the tables can turn at any moment. Admittedly there is no excuse for Ghana losing to Uruguay but it would be unseemly now for the Apartheid people to walk away with a trophy in South Africa. Uruguay is down two starters as well, including their best scorer, Mr. Handball. If Germany is as strong as they look, I'm betting that they will take the trophy home in a rain of vuvuzela cacaphonic orgasm. |
Macrojack, LOL! I don't like the sound of live vuvuzelas. Thanks for the well wishes for the Dutch. Two players are being with held for cards for the next match, but the Dutch are deep enough for it not to be too much of a concern. I would consider them more of a technically proficient team than a physical one. HUP HOLLAND! |
Unsound - I wish you and the Netherlands good luck. It seems that the outcome of these games defy prediction so who knows what will happen next? The Dutch are particularly physical and if they find themselves governed by a card happy referee, their game could be sunk quickly. Thiel must not reproduce the vuvuzela very well. they sound great on my horns. Vernneal - Poor bass is utterly incorrect. You have not heard good horns. As for size, they tend to be large but that is a subjective determination influenced both by perception and the realities of available space. |
So far I've watched just about every minute of the World Cup and I have to say that my horns reproduce the drone of the vuvuzelas very well. Of course, I've never actually heard a live vuvuzela chorus with which to compare but I'm convinced that the sound is convincing. Then again, who cares, the games are so engrossing and the announcers so entertaining that sound quality is the last thing I'm thinking about. Then again, perhaps there is an added value in having such a full throated, vibrant reproduction. Whichever, I can definitely see why the whole world is gaga about this game. Less scoring makes for more tension. |
We live in a neighborhhod with Victorian style homes including ours and the Grammophone like look appealed to her. We think alike in this way in that I think that is part of the appeal of horns to me, is that tie to the past.While the ancestral heritage of modern horns is most commonly associated with the gramophone and phonograph, for which the horn provided acoustical amplification without electrical signals being involved, it should be kept in mind that horns were also the leading speaker technology in the earliest days of commercial radio broadcasting. Those being the years between roughly 1920 and 1925. Rather than providing mechanical/acoustical amplification of the vibrations of a stylus and an associated diaphragm, in radio applications a headphone-like transducer was used to convert electrical signals to sound, which in turn was amplified by the horn. A nice collection of these things is shown here. My collection of antique radios includes a mahogany version of the Amplion Dragon (another example of which is shown at the upper right of that page), which to collectors is one of the more desirable models. I haven't yet tried it in my main audio system, though :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Well, my wife saw my wallpaper on my PC which is a photo of the room with the GOTO horns in them at Capital Audio Fest and says she likes the looks of the big conical plywood horn used CapitalAudioFestPics We live in a neighborhhod with Victorian style homes including ours and the Grammophone like look appealed to her. We think alike in this way in that I think that is part of the appeal of horns to me, is that tie to the past. So maybe there is a pair of big honkin yet retro styled horns somewhere in my future? Ya never know.... |
I've had KHorns for a little over a year. I have them in a dedicated 12' x 13' room, and I think they do well in this size room. Bigger room would certainly be better for them, but smaller speakers have not done better in this room. Mapman - They extend 22.5" from the corners along the wall, and 27.5" into the room from the corner. 49.5" high. I have a door within 22.5" of a corner, so I put a 2' x 4' MDF board there so the speaker pushes flat against it. You may or may not be able to do this with your window, depends how far the sill or trim extends out (my door trim is .5"). Other things posted above about these speakers (need to be in corners, etc) I agree with except for the possible exception of what JohnK posted ("To me Klipschs are responsible for much of the negatives tossed about by non horn owners."). If this is true maybe it's because it's easier to make them sound bad (wrong amplifier, not properly set in corners, etc.). I've only heard a few decent horn systems, so I can't really say how well the KHorn represents horns in general. But I will say that for the price (assuming used @ $2K or so) they are very competitive with other speakers. I prefer them to the Logans and maggies I've had in this room, albeit with different electronics. I run my KHorns with a 2A3 SET amp. |
basically, the wall (for the k-horns) is part of the bass horn, so not having it flush ends the lenngth of the horn at the point where it is no longer effectively one piece. It is no differentin principle than the horn that loads the midrange, but the wavelengths of the respective frequencies produced are different hence the different lengths of the horns needed to load the respective low ends of the particular band - breaking the one solid piece that forms the bass horn is no different than if you sawed the midrange horn in half and set the two pieces next to each other - the horn loading the midrange driver would not consist of the two halves now but only the half that was continuous from the driver. |
The speakers extend along the walls about 22' or so. However, due to the 'home plate' shape the part not touching the walls comes out aout 32 1/2". As I understand it, it is preferable to have a wall extend beyond the actual point of contact. With that said, I have one such wall, but the other is interrupted by a window a foot or two from the 22' extension. In the course of fiddling with my system, I have switched output sides a few times; haven't noticed any difference between the two sides. Just one comment re: the Lascalas. I liked the sound, but the stock Khorns have far superior bass. |
Mapman: The bass extension of the k-horn depends on the length of the horn - which is the lenght of the corner in each direction. I believe that to get the full extension you need corners that extend 48 inches in each horizontal direction. False corners work just fine so long as there is a good connection to the speaker cabinet. |
When viewed from above the K-Horn looks like home plate with the point going into the corner. The idea is for the bass to vent from the rear and use your room walls as an extension of the basshorn. While there is probably no more than 24 inches of cabinet adjoining the side and rear walls, you do want your walls to extend smoothly , without interruption well beyond the speaker cabinet if at all possible. I'm not sure that failure to do this is a game breaker, it is said to compromise bass performance. Maybe there's a K-Horn owner here who can refine my comments. I used to sell Klipsch in the late 80s and I can remember achieving pretty good results with a pair of K-Horns and a Levinson ML-9. Try putting a wanted ad on Craigslist in your area. You never know but what somebody will give you a call. |
Mapman: You may want to consider the LaScalas. It is my understanding that the bass is horn loaded via the cabinet construction and unlike the k-horns does not require a corner to provide the horn. It does not go very low however - I believe around 55 Hz. My reason for the suggestion is that this way you stay with a full horn loaded system. The Heresey bass, I believe, is not horn loaded. This is not to cast aspersions on the Heresey or Cornwall but just a rather purist approach, i.e., if you want to try horns try a complete horn system. Of course there is the practical side in that you have ready access to the Heresey. If you do opt for any of the Klipsch please keep us posted as to your assessment - pros and cons. |
Mapman - at the risk of being slightly off topic, I can say from experience that Khorns can work in a smaller room. My space is 13 x 13 and while I suspect my imaging would be a little more focused with more space, I'm very happy with the sound. I have modified them a bit - Crites tweeters and crossovers and Trachorns. I'm running a primarlly analog system with low powered (but really nice )amps - and at least for me, the result is such that I'm not inclined to change anything. |
I've heard some very good sounding horn systems and think I have a good idea of what to expect. Klipschorns would require a complete re-arranging of my wifes sunroom, but the end result could work, so I have not discounted that. Cornerhorns are likely the only pure horns that I will ever fit into my home anywhere. Should I be concerned with the 12X12 room dimensions with cornerhorns? That is another concern. I'm always scanning the market for a local reasonably priced pair of Klipschorns. WE'll see..... |
