Why does most new music suck?

I'm not sure what the deal with "civility" is. I mean, are we to handle every utterance and statement with kid gloves?

Look, you can't throw out a sweeping and myopic generalization like "new music sucks" (which itself is an "uncivil" observation) and then expect a gentrified, socratic discussion among strangers. I don't think audiogon is the domain of sycophants. However strong a statement you start with is going to generate as equal or stronger statements in return.

With all due respect to Goose, Bryon, et al., and with the exception of a few responses involving mentions of death, etc., most of the responses have actually been pretty restrained. And my own comment that Goose's stone is gathering moss seems born out by his comment about his own musical frames of reference; e.g., the Stones, the Who, and the rest.

Seriously - the Stones, Beatles, Who, etc., started FIFTY FRICKIN' YEARS AGO. That doesn't diminish the power of their artistry or legacy in the least, but if one is pining away for the expressions of half a century ago, then one really seems to refuse to accept the inevitable change in musical paradigms and directions.

Yes, I say "accept". You don't have to like it, but you can't simply out-of-hand reject it as substandard. That shows true superficiality.

It's like saying "All rap sucks" or "All country sucks". Completely untrue. Yes, there's a lot of rap and country (and classical and jazz - I mean, how many decades back has jazz been set by smooth jazz and Kenny G?) that's pure marketing and image and stereotype and geared towards the here and now, not the far and yet unknown. But there're also a few rap and country artists who are every bit as important as Daltrey and Hendrix and Richards.

06-05-13: Onhwy61
To paraphrase Edgar Quintet -- civility and good manners are ordinarily the last refuge of a degenerate nobility.

I have read a great number of your posts, Onhwy61, and found them generally entertaining, intelligent, and friendly. This one seems out of place, to put it politely. You can't really be calling me "degenerate" for commenting on the tenor of this thread.

Bryon

I would have used the word 'vestige' in place of refuge. However, 'refuge' is the place I go as it applies to music, being a built house.

To paraphrase Edgar Quintet -- civility and good manners are ordinarily the last refuge of a degenerate nobility.

One aspect of good music is knowing the rules and when to break them. The same applies to good conversation.

Although I'm not aware of Megan Fox, how is it any less relevant? Call me the author.

06-05-13: Csontos
Frederich Nietzsche... "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music".

Small correction... There is no evidence that this quote is from Nietzsche, in spite of its popular attribution. It is, however, a tattoo on Megan Fox. Perhaps it is an act of snobbery, but I will look elsewhere for words of wisdom.

Bryon

Frederich Nietzsche... "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music".

06-05-13: Csontos
I really don't see a lack of civility here.

Then you missed it. Here's a sample, each from a different contributor...

You must be old.

...you might as well go on Eagles tour or cough up $500 for a Stones ticket. It sounds as if your stone gathered moss long ago.

Most new things (music, fashion, books, art, ect.) suck because you've gotten old and become inflexible. You know what you know and really don't want to know anything else.

You are sucking lemons. Sorry you are missing out. Oh wait, I am not sorry.

If you aren't willing to do that and don't like what is out there today, then stay at home, listen to your superbly recorded albums from yesteryears and enjoy.

Hopefully you'll see the light before you die...

Sounds like lack of civility to me.

06-05-13: Csontos
I'd be disappointed had this thread become an exercise in etiquette.

06-05-13: Csontos
You really gotta hate those snobby tube guys though:)

Anyone who has read my posts will recognize the absurdity of these remarks.

Bryon

gotta spin "In the Year 2525" when I get home tonight for sure......

Without civility, any hobby like high end audio best characterized as a form of OCD would self destruct in no time.

Can high end audio continue to survive? We'll see. If it doesn't, I'm probably still not quite ready to predict the end of civilization as we know it. Unless lead there similarly by other OCD types, you know the ones....

You really gotta hate those snobby tube guys though:)

New music, along with so many other things "suck". Maybe the music sucks because it's a reflection of everything else.

IF not for audiophile etiquette we'd all be offended and nobody would be here anymore.

Me: my system is better than your system
you: no, my system is better than your system
ME: no, ....

...you get the picture!

Etiquette, with audiophiles?
Surely you jest sir.
:-)

I really don't see a lack of civility here. My goodness, look at the op's opening statement. And I don't see a lot of hostility either except for Bongo's 'you're sucking lemons' statement (must have been meant for me). I'd be disappointed had this thread become an exercise in etiquette.

Okay, I'll admit that what I said was a bit of a downer, and optimism is always better than pessimism, but people shouldn't follow their cult leaders rants, blaming a group of people for the ails of society.

That's where is all starts. History is full of the results. Use that tether.

All the best,
Nonoise

I like Bongo's advice.

No one will ever get the satisfaction of saying "I told you so!" when the world comes to an end. (Okay, maybe in their next life.)

As to civility, the good news is that people here are passionate about music (among other things). When passion runs high, manners are sometimes forgotten.

I'm in the camp that generally prefers to read the optimistic responses so my kudos go to Todd and Mapman for seeing the half full glass.

IS there really less civility or do things like the internet merely allow us to experience more of it along with all the rest?

The canary's in the coal mine alright, but I'm not sure it's civility. Youth have always been aware of the bullshit they're being put through. They don't waste any time pointing it out. Up here, Canada is still struggling to identify it's culture while the teacher's union is one of the richest. Since when has music not been a reflection of current events? Music soothes the savage breast so subject matter is not the issue. How it's put together is. Problem is, there's nothing left to put together.

Nonoise

You probably need to shake your blues at a local rave. Try something called E. You won't worry about the Mayans again.

I think the loss of civility is the canary in the coal mine in that it is one of the symptoms of a declining civilization. History is full of the declines of empires from Easter Island to the Roman Empire to the recurring 52 year cyclic reinvention of the Mayans and their eventual unraveling.

Standards of living have been so improved that, short of nuclear annihilation, we won't see our own decline or that of others but rather a gradual realization that we have simply, and irrevocably, taken a turn for the worse.

The music that results from that is a reflection of that trend which seems to annoy us to no end. Because of this slow and bastard form of decline we will always have that tether to the past that allows us look both forward and backward.

Lest the youth aren't made aware of this tether they will continue onward into god knows what, but it won't be for the better. The loss always manifests itself culturally. Better teachers are needed but to blame poor schooling on unions is a bit of a stretch. Unionized teachers of Europe are the contributing factor to their higher achievement levels they hold over us.

All the best,
Nonoise

Hey Elizabeth, Ah one, ah two, champagne bubbly music. The pride of North Dakota don't yah know. Yah sure, you bet!

A lot of hostility on this thread. Some notable exceptions, like Mapman. Whether or not there has been a decline in popular music, there seems to be a decline in popular civility.

I expect the responses to this post will prove my point.

Bryon

Csontos..so what's your point?

What? No coffee drinkers out there? Pity. Hopefully you'll see the light before you die for the open minded, or on the other hand, hopefully not for the closed. I recently watched a reality flick about a guy who had a half million vinyl record collection. No new music. Good luck hearing each one just one time in your life.

Probably also harder than ever for most musicians to make a living, at least in the USA these days, just like it is for so many others.

On the flip side, hardship has sewn the seeds of a lot of really good music over the years.......

The major reason's for the decline of music quality is poor education in the school systems. Back in the 60's and early 70's High School Students were required to take Music education classes which taught music theory and the history of music such as jazz and classical. When the AFL-CIO unionized the school teachers in the late 70's they lowered the standard's making it easier for low quailty teacher's to obtain their teacher's certificates. Art and music classes are just about non existent nowadays in the school's resulting in lack of knowledge and the importance of music to the current generation of students. Asia, Europe and Canada still maintain their high education standards which is why high end audio and music awareness is stronger in those countrie's than in the states. The result is mediocre talent shows on TV as well as poor recording artists with major labels. Justin Bieber is a prime example of the garbage coming out of the current music industry. Their is still some damn good rock band's around today but not on the same scale as thirty or more years ago.

"I get disheartened to hear audiophiles say that music is shit, dead , over."

I think that in many cases like this, with "audiophiles", the user has high or particular performance/sound quality expectations that are not being met for whatever reason that creates a barrier to discovering and enjoying new music. I have suffered this curse myself over the years from time to time. You tend to listen to the same old stuff because you get pleasure from the familiarity that compensates from just not enjoying what you are listening to.

OR in some cases, people really only like certain music or songs and that is it.

Whatever floats your boat. ITs all OK. Its only usually a problem when one gets stuck in a pattern of blaming others for not fulfilling their own personal needs.

Toddnkaya

Amen brother.

The problem with your request for albums that are well recorded, well written and performed, is that music is subjective. There are people out there who don't like the bands you listed.

I could list MY favorite albums that *I* consider solid, however you may not like them at all.

Music is always evolving and much of it will reflect current tastes and trends. If you like it, great; if not that's okay- but that doesn't make it "bad" just not your style.

As other's have said, the industry has changed- the way music is produced, promoted, purchased, discovered has changed drastically. Sometimes in order to listen to talented artists without resources, you have to suffer through poorer quality recordings. Just as going to live performances isn't all about sound quality, it is an experience. Some of us are able to go to a show or buy an imperfect recording and enjoy it for what it is.

If you aren't willing to do that and don't like what is out there today, then stay at home, listen to your superbly recorded albums from yesteryears and enjoy.

I agree with Toddnkaya- this may be the best time for music. I am always amazed at the never ending talent in the world. Do I like all of it? No way. Is there a lot of crap (IMO;)) recorded today? Yep. But there is certainly not a dearth of great music.

Dare I say , that there is more great Pop Rock bands now than in any era ?
I guess I said it.
My tastes haved moved from straight ahead Rock n Roll back in highschool to Pop Rock, Folk, Alt. County, Blue Grass, Americana
By Pop Rock, I don't mean Adam Lambert , I listen to progressive , innovative (even if reinterpreting styles/genres) intelligent Pop Rock.
The Shins, Vampire Weekend, Broken Bells, The XX, Ben Howard, Wilco, The Wood Brothers, The National, My Morning Jacket, Gomez, Grizzly Bear,Spiritualized, newly discovered bands such as Alt J, Jim James, Here We Go Magic and more!
What a dynamic and exciting time to be a music lover!!!!
I grew up listening to one of three stations playing Rock music in Philadelphia. I listened to what they played . Now the world of music us at our finger tips!! The Internet , social networking, Spotify , MOG , YouTube ,
Rapsody, Sirrus , Cable music , etc... It's easy in this day and age to discover new music. All you need is time and an open mind.
I get disheartened to hear audiophiles say that music is shit, dead , over.
My initial reaction is , I pity these close minded foolish people who do not embrace all the wonderful music released in the past 30 years and today.
You invested thousands of dollars in amazing systems to listen to Bowie and the Beatles and Queen and Rush over and over again ? Really ?
I say ,"Open Your Minds" Discover great new music, it's out there.

Remember ROCK&ROLL sucks and is evil. So I would assume all music after also sucks and is evil. I an dating my age yet again. If anyone wants they can send me ALL the offending music. I will safe guard it for you.

You are sucking lemons. I see and hear dozens of bands everyday that are the equal of the bands you mention.
The difference is that the labels have gone away, and with that, recording studios have gone away as well. Bands do not have access to six figure recording budgets any more, and if they do record, usually self-finance it. In fact, the only real money they make is through live touring. So get out of your #$%@^& rig cave and go to a show. I went and saw three this week: Mumford and Sons, the XX and Watsky. All brilliant. Sorry you are missing out. Oh wait, I am not sorry. Just tired of my generation taking this position, over and over.

There's a lot of good new music out there. The way you listen has much to do with whether or not you will find it worthwhile. If you simply listen once, maybe not even all the way through and declare it bad, well.
I'm sure we can all recall a few albums that took some work to find out how good they were. That hasn't changed. Sometimes it takes work but it's worth it in the long run.

Frogman, you are killing me. Especially since I must admit that you are absolutely correct. But did you have to say it? :)

Agree with you mostly, although honestly I haven't heard a lot of new music. FWIW, compression can "mess up" even good to great music. There are plenty of examples, including Bruce Springsteen's "Magic."

Bryon, et al,

I agree with your statement that more production equals more dilution of talent. And I was impressed by your careful and methodical articulation of your point.

I guess what got me, though, on the original post was the implication that compared to the giants of yore, the modern day artists are superficial, etc. Yes, many modern day musicians struggle (or not) to surpass bubble-gum cheese pop status. But the same can be said for just about any decade of music.

Idk; I think when we start denying the modern for a celebration of the past - the whole "ubi sunt" (oh, where have they gone?" motif) is when we delude ourselves to how relevant our perspective really is.

Even "bad" music sounds pretty good on a good stereo. Every little bit helps.....

Gustav Mahler, at a concert which featured new music of Arnold Schoenberg, was asked his opinion of the piece. "The younger generation," he declared, "is always right."

He went on to say he in fact did not like the piece himself, but that was not the point.

I'm not sure what the particular piece was but I'm probably on Mahler's side on both counts. Nevertheless, each of us is free to choose what we want to listen to. If we say other music sucks we'd better be prepared for a challenge to that statement.

Again, there's a lot of good and even more bad music produced at any moment in time. So listen to the good and try to avoid the bad. It probably means that if you listen to the radio at all you need to be prepared to spend a lot of time changing stations. I know I do.

Frogman, you're statement about modern "country" music is not surprising. The majority of today's country music sounds like soft rock from the 1980-90s. It's a long way from Hank Williams.

Byroncunningham, thanks for alerting us to the threat to our civilization, although you're not the first with that observation. Let's face it, music designed to appeal to young people probably won't make much sense to adults.

I have had an interesting and eye-opening experience concerning "pop" music over the last several months; "pop", as defined by what gets a lot of radio play. The only radio that I listen to are the jazz and classical stations in the NYC area. I have been spending a fair amount of time doing landscaping and other outdoors work at a weekend property in upstate NY far from any major towns and I listen to local stations while I work. The choice of radio stations is very limited and my choices are either current pop or country/western; there is classic-rock station that is difficult to pull in most days. I have never liked country music (to put it mildly), but the surprise for me has been how much better contemporary country music is than the vast majority of current "pop" music. There is no comparison when it comes to how well songs are crafted or the level of musicianship and singing. Most of the pop that gets air play is pretty dreadful IMO, while I find myself actually enjoying much of what I hear from the country music stations. I almost can't believe I am saying that, but it's true.

This has been an interesting thread, though IMO some of the responses have been a bit unkind.

As I mentioned in my post on 5/28, I’m one of the folks who believe that popular music is getting worse. I think there’s been a bit of confusion on the thread about whether people are saying…

(1) POPULAR music is getting worse.
(2) ALL music is getting worse.

My impression is that most of the people who agree with the OP, myself included, are saying (1) but not (2). And so the assumption that we who believe that popular music is getting worse are (a) old, and (b) unwilling to explore new music is, IMO, false. FWIW, I am 40 and I explore new music regularly, including some of the artists that have been mentioned on this thread as examples of good contemporary music.

In my view, the observation that, as people age, they relate less to contemporary popular culture is an accurate generalization. But, IMO, that fact alone does not invalidate their opinions about popular culture, including popular music. In fact, there is some reason to believe that older people are in a BETTER position to judge the relative merits of eras of popular culture, for the simple reason that they have far more experience with multiple eras than younger people do.

And finally, the view that those who believe that popular music is getting worse are simply out of touch seems to be based on the assumption that cultural and artistic regression isn’t possible. But even a casual look at the history of art, science, and politics will reveal that cultural regression in all three is not only possible, but a common historical reality. If you need an example of that, look no further than the middle ages, when many of the artistic, scientific, and political achievements of the ancient world were lost, hidden, or destroyed. That is cultural regression. And if you’d like more recent examples, look at the artistic, scientific, and political regression in virtually every totalitarian state in the 20th century, and there were plenty of those.

Yes, I know, I’m being dramatic. We don’t live in the middle ages, or in North Korea. But the point I’m making is that there is absolutely no guarantee that music, or art more generally, or science, or governance, will progress over time, or even stay constant over time. On the contrary, all of those domains of human affairs are vulnerable to regression, and when they regress far enough, they collapse.

But now I’m being dramatic again. Happy listening.

Bryon

Only the good stuff.

Bottomline is most music sucks old or new! Of all the recorded music how many recordings do you need or want?

The development of technology is not dependent on the evolution of music(or is it?). What are you worried about?

"This made things embarrassingly clear that the Grammys have become all about television ratings and very little about the music."

Ya think? I mean, I'm all over Mintzer and his work with the Yellowjackets, but this statement isn't exactly groundbreaking.

As P.E. said so many years ago, "Who gives a **** about a g*dd*mn Grammy?"

Most new things (music, fashion, books, art, ect.) suck because you've gotten old and become inflexible. You know what you know and really don't want to know anything else. You were once a young leopard invading the temple, but you're now old and saying things typically said by old people. You're "One step closer to death", and they sang that about you 40 years ago!

Big +1 on Bob Mintzer! When CD's 1st came out (mid 80's), Tower Records used to carry Japanese imports of releases unavailable in the states (of American artists!). I own Mintzer's 1st 2 records (recorded just prior to his excellent Big Band recordings on DMP); 'Horn Man' & 'Source'. The musicians on these sessions included; Jaco Pastorius, Don Grolnick, Peter Erskine, John Tropea, Will Lee, Randy Brecker, & Lou Soloff. Great Stuff! Never seen him with a Big Band but I've caught him 3 times with the YJ's, Tremendous musician!

Bob Mintzer is one of the greatest musicians I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. His level of proficiency on his instruments, composing/arranging skills, and insight into the core of music, and art in general, is truly amazing. Those who don't know him or his work can read more about him in on his website. The comments below re the OP's question are from the "Blog" page in his website:

***********************************************************************************

Grammys 2013

February 12, 2013 – 6:14 pm
When I was doing session work in NYC I worked a few times for an arranger who played in the big bands of Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey. Most of the guys on the session were 15-20 years older than I. I had some quasi-soloing to do on one of the cues for a soap opera session with these musicians. The arranger commented privately to one of my friends later that he was perturbed that I did not play more like Al Klink from the Glen Miller band. The guys from my generation were emulating Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, and Joe Henderson. This arranger clearly heard things differently than I did. Needless to say, I was not called back to work for that arranger again after that. I did go out and did some research on the saxophonists of that era subsequently.

I am finding myself in a similar situation today after having attended the Grammy celebration last night. Only this time I am on the other end of the spectrum.

I feel like we were witnessing the further dumbing down of music, the lack of acknowledgement of so much of the profound music that has influenced what we do today, and disguising the lackluster level of musicianship we heard in a mass of glitz, special effects, special sets, and camera work.

First the good news. The Grammy bands, comprised of high school students from around the US were by far the best musicians to perform all day. They played with an amazing level of maturity, poise, and spirit that bodes well for the future of refined, informed playing. Justin Dicioccio and Ron McCurdy did fantastic jobs directing the big band and vocal ensemble. Bravo to them and all the students!

The live band at the pre telecast was great as well. My bandmate Will Kennedy from the Yellowjackets was on board. I couldn’t see him, as we were pretty far away, but I heard one snare drum crack and knew it was him.

On to the telecast which, I’m told, had the highest ratings of any Grammy telecast for the last 20 years. To me (music is VERY subjective and personal, so this is an important caveat) nobody in the whole telecast sang or played their ass off. There were a few nice tunes, but the live versions were far less compelling than the hyper-produced versions you heard during the announcements of the nominees. TO ME most of the music lacked subtlety, interesting harmony or melody, or rhythms for that matter.

There was no James Brown, Ray Charles, Tony Bennett, James Taylor, John Mayer, Stevie Wonder, or Aretha Franklin anywhere in sight!

One of music’s iconic treasures, Dr. John was buried in a large band with the Black Keys and a New Orleans brass band that wound up sounding like a high school garage band jam session. I did not hear Dr. John play one note! It’s unfathomable to me that musicians would play with such a great musician and blatantly play right over him.

A tribute to Dave Brubeck, an American musical hero, lasted 30 seconds (Chick Corea, Kenny Garrett, Stanley Clark), and was such an amazing slight to this great artist’s legacy and to jazz music in general. This made things embarrassingly clear that the Grammys have become all about television ratings and very little about the music.

The so called collaborations (aren’t you supposed to collaborate on a collaboration?) were very mis-matched, and again the performances were pretty bad.

Out of tune singing and mediocre playing of instruments do not a collaboration make!

The songs were forgettable.

Lots of other little things were disconcerting as well. At the pre telecast an 8 piece faux chamber music group performed a Phillip Glass in odd meter like piece that was not terribly interesting, then went on to win a Grammy. Hard to understand. Jazz musicians do far more interesting things with odd meter coupled with improvisation.

A Gil Evans arrangement from 1949 won best arrangement of a composition over several of the most prominent arrangers of this era. One would think that some note worthy things nave happened since 1949.

Music and art generally reflect some level of what is happening in society.

This year’s Grammys is a pretty good snap shot of the world we live in. Recognition and prosperity for a select few and the dissemination of information that doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth, frequently obscuring view of those who do the best and most profound work.

All we can do is continue to speak out on these issues and keep the flame alive for quality playing, live playing, the craft of musical composition, and informed musical decisions in creating our art.

I think I’ll go listen to some Al Klink!

*******************

There is no good new music. Go ahead, take a deep breath and begin with the word 'there'. Just do it. Now that wasn't so hard was it? Because if it is good, it's a remake. Why is it so hard to face the fact that music can be reduced to a mathematical equation. There simply is not an infinite number of original pleasing harmonies available. This is why the new stuff sucks. No different from the old stuff that sucks. Do the math. And top 40's is a ridiculous comparison. It's time to usher in the brave new world of 'Plagiary'.