Excuse me, I meant to write above "..blind testing is NOT a test methodology...".
Why Do So Many Audiophiles Reject Blind Testing Of Audio Components?
Because it was scientifically proven to be useless more than 60 years ago.
A speech scientist by the name of Irwin Pollack have conducted an experiment in the early 1950s. In a blind ABX listening test, he asked people to distinguish minimal pairs of consonants (like “r” and “l”, or “t” and “p”).
He found out that listeners had no problem telling these consonants apart when they were played back immediately one after the other. But as he increased the pause between the playbacks, the listener’s ability to distinguish between them diminished. Once the time separating the sounds exceeded 10-15 milliseconds (approximately 1/100th of a second), people had a really hard time telling obviously different sounds apart. Their answers became statistically no better than a random guess.
If you are interested in the science of these things, here’s a nice summary:
Categorical and noncategorical modes of speech perception along the voicing continuum
Since then, the experiment was repeated many times (last major update in 2000, Reliability of a dichotic consonant-vowel pairs task using an ABX procedure.)
So reliably recognizing the difference between similar sounds in an ABX environment is impossible. 15ms playback gap, and the listener’s guess becomes no better than random. This happens because humans don't have any meaningful waveform memory. We cannot exactly recall the sound itself, and rely on various mental models for comparison. It takes time and effort to develop these models, thus making us really bad at playing "spot the sonic difference right now and here" game.
Also, please note that the experimenters were using the sounds of speech. Human ears have significantly better resolution and discrimination in the speech spectrum. If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music.
So the “double blind testing” crowd is worshiping an ABX protocol that was scientifically proven more than 60 years ago to be completely unsuitable for telling similar sounds apart. And they insist all the other methods are “unscientific.”
The irony seems to be lost on them.
Why do so many audiophiles reject blind testing of audio components? - Quora317 responses Add your response
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Excuse me, I meant to write above "..blind testing is NOT a test methodology..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpO3ICTTddo |
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the biggest irony with these testing nerds is that they are usually the ones with the least exposure to a wide and varied spectrum of equipment. Its not even a question of affordability, but in most cases, its a dogmatic view of the hobby and refusal to listen. that being the case, they fail the number criteria in scientific methodology. they fail to observe. If you listen to a lot of music, and over the years have experience a good assortment of equipment, trust me, trust your ears. audio reproduction is no different from food or wine. Its is consumption that stimulates the senses. Its basis is science, but satisfaction and fulfillment comes down to giving the listener an experience. if you want plain sustenance, Mcdonalds is right there for you. Its got everything you need and it measures well :) |
Ive been at this long enough to see all sorts. The most common zealot is the one motivated by the desire to compensate for his own insufficiencies. Whatever the circumstance, he is unable to experience variety. That said, Ive found one right here. The guy is on a cable forum screeching about cables. The engagement is his reward. “I stuck it to them” its pretty sad. |
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peguinpower the biggest irony with these testing nerds is that they are usually the ones with the least exposure to a wide and varied spectrum of equipment ...I don't know if that's true or not, but I've long suspected it. Its not even a question of affordability, but in most cases, its a dogmatic view of the hobby and refusal to listen.Yes, exactly. And what we see recently on A'gon are proselytizing fundamentalist measurementalists - a noisy few - trying to reduce every discussion to blind testing. It's absurd. (And this thread has shown that science recognizes blind testing is not infallible even when conducted by experts - and the measurementalists here are obviously not experts.) ... that being the case ... they fail to observe.Incredible, isn't it? |
@cleeds @penguinpower I think you are right about exposure. They may not even have what we would call a system. But i suspect they’re often young and maybe have some electronics exposure and want to impress everyone with their knowledge. They remind me of the kid who had taken auto mechanics in school & just got his first car. Then he goes to the drag strip with his new 4 banger and tells the racers with 30 yrs experience how they are wrong. @penguinpower but its good to give some push back. the nerds wanna take over the house. not on my watch lol That’ s partially why I started this thread. Far too many newbies here who are too dogmatic about their measurements dogma. There is plenty of evidence showing its inadequacies. Paul McGowan and many others have given good info on it. But the new know it alls don't accept it |
^^^artemus, there are those too. A few life examples: guys tells me bbq cant get any better than his local guy, but has never tasted product from a true pit master me telling my wife, the wine is costco is all I need, wife pays for a wine tasting in Paris selected by an excellent sommelier, I eat crow the people who try and lump all things in one bucket dont know there are truly fine things in this world. Beer, cars, shoot, I even learned to appreciate a good chair recently. |
That’s funny. Because I had no idea how cars work and so signed up for Auto Shop to learn. Every day the "class" was the teacher blathering some nonsense about maybe try and not skin your knuckles up too much today, I did that one time the wrench slipped boy did it hurt, yadayada blah blah freaking blah. So I asked every kid there. They are all madly turning wrenches changing the carbs out and blathering banter. Not a one of them in the whole class the whole time had the foggiest idea how a car works! They were all monkeys with a hammer trying to fix a helicopter. Including the teacher! So when I got a motorcycle and needed to tune it up I got a manual and learned myself. Two years later with a 240Z pulled the engine tore it down took it to a machine shop put it back together and it started on the first turn of the key, just fired up like it had never been taken apart. Even the timing was only very slightly off, because I had set it by eye very close which I was able to do because by this point I understand very well exactly what I am doing, how every single little bit of it works. All the stuff no one else was able to tell me about even in a class where that is supposed to be all they do. If you want to learn this stuff the odds of running into someone like me who really does understand and can actually explain it are slim to none. What that means is if you utter the words "double blind" in anything other than mockery and derision then YOU are the ape trying to fix the helicopter with a hammer. YOU need to drop the BS step away from the keyboard go out and DO and HEAR and LEARN- on your own. I know it is scary having to actually do something. Yes it is a whole lot easier to jabber away on a keyboard pretending to know. But you know what? We can all clearly see that you do NOT know, because otherwise you would never utter the words double-blind in anything other than mockery and derision. |
BTW have you noticed that all of dletch2's posts have been removed ....at least from this thread. I didn't ask for it. Quite honestly I'm inclined to let people like him to continue to show themselves. If they don't self destruct they loose all credibility. But then too, there are far to many measurebators with dogmatic opinions who have not developed the "agree to disagree mentality. No board can tolerate very many of them and we are getting more than our share. |
^^^miilercarbon i was in the presence of a true master race mechanic from a Japanese manufacturer with decades of experience. He taught my colleague how adjust the valve clearance on a particular engine. Simply spacing the intake valve tight to the gauge, and the exhaust a little loose gave a 30hp boost in output. you dont learn stuff like that from testing nerds. You get it in the field trying, failing and learning. |
The one you mention, wretch2, not only should all his posts be removed but then he should be suspended. For a start. And this is from a guy who abhors censorship. But if the whole point of a forum is to exchange ideas to help people find what they need to build a better system, how can you do this with people clogging it up with nothing but blather, and worse? You can't. So they need to go. The wretch is not being censored. There are no end of sites he can blather to his hearts content. Just not here. |
you dont learn stuff like that from testing nerds. You get it in the field trying, failing and learning. Extra extra: trying failing and learning is called testing. Nerds are people too as gear nuts prove every day. Not sure what people are even arguing about. Just do your own tests your way when you choose. Or not. Its all good. May you test long and prosper! Let’s just ban everyone so the world is a cooler place and more time to listen to, not test, all the wonderful hifis with golden ears. Cheers! |
Uh, folks breaking news: double blind IS a form of listening and learning. So it sounds like everyone agrees that is a good thing, but of course there is a place and time for everything.Maybe for some, who are filled with self doubt. For me, it's just one of many disciplines that I choose not to partake as I find it unnecessary and a bit of a fool's errand. By the time I got a piece of equipment, it's already been analyzed to death. Anything I do to it afterwards, is just tuning it to my satisfaction. All the best, Nonoise |
millercarbon ... if you utter the words "double blind" in anything other than mockery and derision then YOU are the ape trying to fix the helicopter with a hammer. YOU need to drop the BS step away from the keyboard go out and DO and HEAR and LEARN- on your own.Let's please not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Scientific listening tests have value - though that value is limited - and they have their place. But they are not infallible nor are they reason to dismiss empirical results with a wave of the hand, which is what has begun to happen here. It's even worse when the demand for some sort of blind testing is accompanied with the accusation that a listener is insane, deluded, retarded, etc. - all of which has happened here. |
@mapman so what? true experiences are not in had the laboratory nor in school, but in the real world, where stuff comes at you from every direction. if you havent learned how valuable true experience is in life and business, then nothing I say will change you mind. youve got to experience it first (see what I did there?) |
edgewound ... actual engineer's posts removed because they don't agree with the narrative.I'm pretty sure he was no engineer. That's pretty juvenile, and petty. It's actually pretty disgusting.What was juvenile and petty were the personal attacks in the posts he made - just as he did under his previously-banned user names. |
Actually...McDonald's "food" is not good you, and will lead you to an early grave. This has been measured. Making such snobbish comments on those of us that don't buy into the all the audiophile nonsense, have actually listened to this varied gear and reach a conclusion that the prices don't justify the performance...by actually listening, and not falling for the psychologically subjective things they are told are there. Refusal to listen? That's an incredibly ignorant assumption and statement to make. You can snicker all you want at those that don't join your elitist club...the same reason's I never joined a fraternity. It's not what you know...it's who you know. And it's pretty fake. |
If you want to learn this stuff the odds of running into someone like me who really does understand and can actually explain it are slim to none. This kind of renaissance man is a thing of the past because we have been sold the idea of the "Expert". He/She supposedly knows a very large amount about a small subject. But I have lamented many times that the various experts know a lot about their specific ingredient which goes into the pie. And the amount of experts needed to build a pie may be 10-20-25, etc. But no one knows what the pie should taste like. Therefore the pie is often quite inferior to the one grandma used to make and she only had a 5th grade education. This is not to belittle education but the process itself which is often quite flawed. |
@edgewound - this is a forum. i hope we are all adults. you have not been attacked. I say what I mean and if your feelings get hurt, thats tough. Rest assured, if you are happy where u are, well and good. I can be happy for you. However, I can be just as vocal as the opposing position. And if it hurts feelings, fortunately, Ive got thick skin. |
Cross post: Well …. It looks like DLetch2 is gone. Whether banned or just quit on his own, I have no idea. Honestly I am not surprised, following the previous patterns of this guy, most recently posting as Audio2Design, before that as AtDavid, Roberttdid, Dannad, and perhaps other names I lost track of. One thing I guarantee is he will be back. Guaranteed. It will be easy to spot. Again. |
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It sounds like you have the inside scoop on this Glubson. And let me be straight with you dbag: if someone threatens me via PM telling me “I know where you work”, like your previous Audio2Design friend did, or David Letchworth, whatever, I will not back down and submit to the bully. I am not afraid of him. And go ahead and tell him, I mean what I said to him, if he does something to me. This is my livelihood, and will do everything I can to protect it, protect my family. Whatever it takes. Tell him. I will spend my last dime, take my own life, to do what I told him I will do. I promise you that. I mean it. Tell him. One word that threatens my family, and I am all in. I know who he is too. Tell him that too. |
Blindtest has no significance save in blackbox situation for a researcher or statistically like in medical research... In audio blindtesting is a circus most of the times save well organised for marketing reason.... One single audiophile dont need it.... I lived through hundred of single changes positives or negative or neutral in the last 2 years.... In this step by step listenings experiments i never needed an external authority over my ears... Blindtest out of serious science is a circus.... If someone dont trust his ears in audio he is the one gullible to external tools negating the verdict of his own perception... Any tool is a useful slave but a useless master.... Pseudo scientists ideologue are like religious fanatics...Their alleged skepticism is a blind faith in fact.... True skepticism is a tool not a master....And beliefs are only roots you cannot all cut....Choose well.... Musical timbre perception is never a placebo, it is a learned bias....I dont doubt timbre....I doubt only speck of sound or ghost of music.... And anyway you dont doubt what you create yourself.... I never bought tweaks and i dont buy new cables.... |
