why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
"Using exotic cables to achieve a desired sound is not cost effective."
That statement is actually an excellent example of what is known as a Strawman argument. Misstating the opposing side’s position. It’s a common ploy of those who object, perhaps strongly, to expensive high end cables to portray cables as some sort of tone control device, as if the high end cable manufacturers are engaged in some sort of global conspiracy to manipulate the naive and gullible audiophile. And that audiophiles purchase high end cable to control some audio characteristic or another, you know, tame the highs, get more bass frequencies, etc. Furthermore the determination of the cost effectiveness of a given cable or a given anything actually would require a formal system engineering study, not an off-the-top-of-the-head opinion.
Too many here are stating things definitively so as to preclude any debate without the first hand experience to back it up.
I used to be in the camp that simpler was the better way to go and as long as one used a high enough purity with the conductor material, and use the least offensive dielectric, then that was all was needed. And, indeed, there are cables that fall into that category that fill the need without resorting to deep pockets.
It was only when I got some discounted, higher priced cables that I realized I was gravely mistaken in my belief. I had to hear it for myself. Not only was I wrong about the premise regarding construction, I was also wrong on the monetary amount needed to achieve my present state of audio satisfaction.
Considering what I've spent, slowing bleeding my wallet with various cables when I could afford to try something else, I just should have gone for the best I could afford and save money in the long run.
I have been running balanced cables for some time now . Yesterday i picked up a Krell KSA 100 off Craigs list . It has only rca inputs . Had to scrounge around to find a rca cable in the old dusty freebie bin of different cables i have . Plugged in some no name rca's so i could hear the new amp . To my amazement i was still listening to great sound . Go figure ? How is this possible ?
Anyone who wants to buy expensive cables more power to you . Just do not tell others they will not get great sound if they choose not to buy into them . End of discussion ? Good .
Although i do not think many would have argued against that . If our logic is wire is wire your expensive wire should also be great too . Just overpriced is all .
Although i do not think many would have argued against that . If our logic is wire is wire your expensive wire should also be great too . Just overpriced is all
.If overpriced, company would go out of business. The fact that many exotic cable companies have been in business for many many years, it's not overpriced that's all.
Precisely. There are makes that don't tout their cables as much as most. They simply know from experience and feedback that what they do works. They use beta testers. With those makes it's a slow process and it boils down to evolutionary improvements, not some kind of annual hype fest. Those are the ones you should pay attention to. When you unearth them, you find a long gestation process with few models to mark their progress.
The satisfaction you get should be on a level similar to one who commissions a performance. It is what this hobby is all about, isn't it? Just think of the equipment you buy, the effort you make to mix and match, and the final touches. It's all about the rewards.
jmcgrogan2 - If you wish to carry on a two way conversation with me let's do it in private . You are the type who wants to open these types of conversations by putting members dialogue in quotes and go around rebutting anything you do not agree with . Just accept the fact your statement was illogical like the continued shilling of overpriced cables .ok . Thanks
This is not about differing opinions, civil folks can air an opinion or debate an idea without being trolls. Childish responses?... a product of Internet threads without moderators, anywhere else (off topic or not respectful? YOU'D BE TOAST!), or if someone tried to act that way at an audio club event they would soon clearly understand that no one cared to respect their view point or speak to them.
You guys are too much . I would venture to guess neither if you would act the way you do here in public . Cant imagine you would tell a stranger to their face they were or are acting immature . Carry on boys with the good fight .
Maplegrovemusic, You obviously just don’t get it. You can’t disrespect someone and try to demean their POV and then expect to be respected for your opinion. We can disagree, that's fine but, we don't need the throwing of feces from cage to cage. Think about it. How about we get back on topic?
oh here we go . I will attempt to answer all incoming questions to the best of my abilities . Who was disrespected ? Any cable that it's profit mark up is greater than 500% which puts too many to list .
Talk about illogical, if something is overpriced, company will go out of business with low or no demand. The fact that many cable companies, Nordost, Kimber, Stealth ... have been in business for a long time, it's not overpriced.
All you can conclude is some consumers find it overpriced and some don't. This applies to all goods ... some find a Porsche is overpriced and some don't. If you do, don't buy it but respect the ones that do.
Not the same statement that made no sense as it did last time you posted it . They stay in business because gullible people like you buy them and the profit margins are insane to rational people .
my question wasn't meant to be argumentative. I have no way of knowing manufacturing costs. How about, what are some cables you like and feel are a good value and would recommend to friends?
Having an open mind i say try anything . Who's to say some spool wire at Home Depot will not float someones boat . I completely disagree with stating to someone you must spend x amount of dollars on wire if you want good sound . That is just ridiculous .
It's all quite simple realy. Would you take you 10 K McIntosh power amp and strap it with some 16g zip cord to your 20 K Martin Logan sound producers, I THINK NOT! And on the flip side would you strap your 50.00 Radio Shack'y music box to your 10.00 bookshelf yard sale bonanza speakers with 1 K audio cables, NOT REALY!
Point being, match your dollars and system with the best cable that you feel good about, and let the sound carry you away.
I set a maximum amount to spend on cables, but am always happy to spend less...I would never say you need to spend x to get good sound...but I also find the best sound rarely comes cheaply...
I just went to hear some $15,000 PBN speakers this weekend at a fellow audiophile's house this . The wires he was using were ten dollars a foot . Needless to say the sound was superb .
I don't set a predetermine budget on anything and buy what sounds best to my ear. My neighbor has $150K full loom of Stage 3 cables. I respect his decision. He's successful, earned the money and happy with the results. Who am I or anyone to criticize his decision.
I don't find any member suggesting one has to spend x amount of dollars but just recommending different products. Some happens to be expensive.
As a parting statement . Whatever floats your boat . Stop telling me and anyone else reading this we have to spend big bucks to be happy or that we are listening to subpar fidelity . Peace out .
"Who's to say some spool wire at Home Depot will not float someones boat" I agree, for many reasons - poor, non-resolving gear, poor hearing and perception affected by strong belief that all wires sound alike.
This sums up my whole point . He was a stranger i had just met . Why would i feel the need to tell him what cables he should be using ? Same goes here on the forum with your my opinion of what cables need to be used to get great sound .
if you are referring to me kjanki you are mislead . I hear a sound signature in all cables that have been in my system . Not much more to say on that topic . Next statement please
I'm NOT telling anyone, one must spend X amount to get a good sound. Like I said, I think most members are just sharing their experiences. It's your money so do as you wish. Why do I care?
Exactly , Who cares ? i sure do not . Some others wish everyone would spend more money on cables for some reason . Are they affiliated or making money some how ? If it is a livelihood i understand the fever determination to have that stance . Otherwise it is just the get what i have mentality .
Here is a way to explain the overpriced cables : Take and compare a $5000 amplifier with a $5000 cable . Lets take a close look at the materials and costs to build both . Amplifier - God knows how many actual parts ? Think of the labor involved in making it . Now look at the cable . You have a handful of materials to assemble . How many companies smelt and extrude the wire themselves ? If they outsource this they are paying materials and a hour of assembly , packaging .. ect
Maplegrovemusic, no I was not referring to you. You presented strawman argument, since people are only sharing their experiences not telling others how much money they have to spend. If anything I found people telling others, that spending money on cables is silly, that they are cheated by manufactures, that lamp cord from Home Depot is just fine. Even title of this thread suggests it.
Well, I just had friends over for a beer and some listening after swapping my entry level brand X cables ($400msrp) out from the monitors (tweeter/midrange) and replaced them with the same brand X extreme level ($1650) cable. I also replaced fuses (a slim wire on the mains) with Hi-Fi fuses in the preamp and phonostage.
The remarkable thing is I had noted a particular sweetening in upper frequencies and a much greater "humanness" and focus to the vocal bits, and a lose of edginess and slight grain to some upper frequency details. They noted the same and then we talked about the wire changes. It was more musical.
For me, this was a system upgrade worth the expense, especially since I bought the wire on A’gon used 9/10, already burned-in, and the fuses had a 30 day trial guarantee, of which I will not be taking advantage.
So, to my ears, (and wallet) this was a totally acceptable trade in treasure for performance. Whether or not this had anything to do with a "wire" purchase, I could not have cared less. It was a sound improvement. And this makes a case for feeling the need to buy expensive cables. Because they can work in the context of a "system".
I am not saying i will never spend more money than i do now . Once i have tried all the wire with costs that are warranted i might be curious to try more wires . I do not expect better results because they cost more . Just read an article where the owner of Shunyata made claims that other Wire companies actually use inferior wire in the base model so there next level sounds better . So with that theory their mid priced would be on par with non audiophile producers of wire . Disregard the melbguy statement above . Must have been reading a different page when i responded
Caelin Gabriel has said a lot about the cabling industry and a lot about wire, including his own. A great article about mains cables, the sonic differences, and what can and can’t be measured, but still heard. I enjoy his closing comments (about the last five paragraphs of the interview).
Can everyone agree on most or all of the following, and then perhaps this less than constructive discussion can be concluded:
1)Wires sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending not only on the wire but on the technical characteristics of what they are connecting, their lengths, the AC voltage and noise characteristics at the particular location in the case of power cords (at least), the system, the room, the recording, and the listener.
2)For many reasons, including synergy with the aforementioned variables, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly less than 1.0 (i.e., significantly less than perfect).
3)Based in part on a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has accumulated over the years, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly greater than 0.0 (i.e., significantly greater than none).
4)It seems evident that some cables are overpriced, one reason among several being that their prices are determined in part based on what the market will bear. And it seems evident that SOME segment of the market assumes a higher degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance than is actually the case, and that segment of the market will therefore pay higher prices to achieve results that may (with sufficient experimentation) be achievable at lower prices in their particular cases.
5)Additional reasons that cables may in many cases be overpriced relative to the benefit they are likely to provide (I’m quoting from myself in the following thread from a couple of years ago; and pardon the redundancy with some of the points mentioned above):
(a)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.
(b)From a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one, I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be expected to occur. [See especially both of the paragraphs in my post in that thread dated 12-15-2012 which begin with "one interesting example"].
(c)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that, however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.
6)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately on the higher part of the price spectrum were to give equal opportunity to a variety of cables at lower price points, and experiment with such cables as extensively as they do with higher priced cables, there is a significant chance that they may be able to achieve performance comparable to what they have achieved at those higher price points at significantly lower price points. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion, for example the threads about vintage Western Electric wires.
7)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately or entirely on the lower part of the price spectrum were to focus on the higher part of the price spectrum they might in some cases, depending in part on their equipment, be surprised at how good the results are. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion
8)Some audiophiles care more than others about achieving the last 5 or 10 or 20% of the performance their components are capable of. Some are satisfied with 80% and just want to listen to music. Both approaches are equally valid.
9)Assertions that wire is just wire are erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated.
10)Assertions that more expensive necessarily = better are also erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated, by implication or otherwise.
11)Just as not all audible differences are measurable, not all measurable differences are audible. I say that in connection with measurable differences that are presented in some marketing literature.
12)An assertion that spending more on cables rather than less increases the **probability** of achieving optimal results is arguably correct, but pronouncements to that effect are not gospel. And opinions to the contrary, if presented in a respectful manner, can and should be discussed in a respectful manner.
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