Maplegroove,
You tell it like it is. I really appreciate that.
You tell it like it is. I really appreciate that.
why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
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I have spent way to much money chasing audiophile heaven with all types of cable designs and materials...my myopic conclusion is that MIT DELIVERS THE GOODS! Now if you have owned as many cables as I have and compared them to MIT in your system, you may come to a different conclusion. My experience, which is substantial, confirmed to me that only a cable system that actually addresses the issues surrounding signal transfer can actually give you real results and not just tonal abberations and frequency variations, which may or may not please your ear subjectively. |
Yup there are those who enjoy the information and the banter. Any way I have been testing a loom of atlas mavros. They are pretty good. They are from Scotland. They do a really good job sound wise. They see to work better with speaker cables and interconnect both implemented. Pretty pricey but they sound a lot better than the Audioquest Rocket 44 I had back in the day. |
This has been a rather interesting thread so far as to what floats your boat based on what you've personally experienced but I've noticed there are some who completely ignore that and take anything as an ad hominem attack on what they feel or know, presenting it in a myopically black or white point of view, disregarding the caveats, limits and such. It's almost painful to read. All the best, Nonoise |
Lol. You have to figure out how to keep enough of your own. In Texas, you get it or you don't. Anyway. Thanks for telling us we are all fools we didn't know that. You are so smart. Pure unadulterated genius!!! We are so gullible. We can't spel or cownt done here. Lol. I'm glad we got people like you to tell us how foolish we are with the money we make. Obviously we can't hear either. |
Exotic metals, cryogenic treatments, various unsulation materials, cable geometry/gauge and welding techniques all have a certain effect on the signal. All have varying degrees of success in hitting certain audiophile hot buttons. At the end of the day few can deliver comprehensive superior performance that retains musicality, accurate tone, dynamics and articulation at the frequency extremes under varying volume levels. They are all wires. My ear hears significant enhancements of the musical signal only with MIT and Transparent cables. They actually address significant problems with signal transfer and have technologies that work consistently across their range of cables. Hocus locus and wire voodoo does little to increase listening satisfaction. |
If one has settled on on a single core, solid cable (which I have) then there's not much that can be done that others have. Get a good enough purity, use bare ends, anneal it a few times, even cryo it, and the only variable left will be which gauge to use along with which sheathing works best for you. As much as I love the sound of some multi-strands (Supra Ply and Zu Mission) and the lovely, melodic presentation they are capable of, they tend to only capture about 80-85% of the extension and air of solid core. They capture probably best, the sound of a live event, to a point. Some detail is missing along with the air and extension mentioned but if that's all I had on hand, I could happily live with them. But I like the detail, tone, texture, extension, definition and presence of single, solid core. There is no glare, hype or etch, just a much better focus and clarity. Having said that, I know there must be some brands of stranded out there that close the gap on solid core and all the R&D and material needed to justify the cost but in the context of my system, single, solid core gives a mighty fine, dare I say, excellent, acquittal of what is possible, desirable, and satisfying. It's all system dependent. All the best, Nonoise |
"Typically you ended up with the money because you were smart enough to put yourself in a position to even have a system and afford the hobby." Something tells me you don't live in the US. Over here, typically someone does go out and work for the money. Quite often, though, someone else ends up with it. |
11-26-15: Maplegrovemusic More materials, cost more and there is more opportunity for mark up. No one disagrees with that. It has also been my experience in my room that the fancy jackets/layering does have an "affect" on the sound depending on the application. Here is a personal example of this In this picture are two of my personal phono cables The one on the left is a custom loom made for me, to my specs. The one on the right is my Purist Audio Venustas cable. The Purist Audio cable costs 5-6 times as much (maybe more now - 8^0 - as my custom loom, and it is used with the stock wiring that comes with a tonearm. Connects to the back of it for those not into vinyl here. My custom loom is a straight shot. The custom loom plays in a different league in my room. More immediacy, bigger pipe of sound, blah, blah, blah.... Now if I was wire crazy I could have 5 or 6 custom looms made up with different wire types to match the cost of one Purist Audio Venustas. The tonearm's design allows for changing out this loom in 10-15 minutes. |
Audiolabrynth: saw your question on the Tara thread asking about what all my system is composed of in total; it's posted here under All-Out-Assault under my userID. Please feel free to check it out and also please (several of us have suggested this on various threads), please do the same for your system including pics. Thanks! |
In my post I put the initials twwritg. The means the one who responds is the guy. The guy who thinks that we all are fools and he is the smart guy of reason. Typical I'm right and y'all are crazy and wrong. Typical of audiophiles who thinks they are normal and reasonable. The fool tells someone else what they should do with ones money. Typically you ended up with the money because you were smart enough to put yourself in a position to even have a system and afford the hobby. Lol. Will every high end cable be better than cheaper ones? No. It depends on the match in your system. Purchase a higher priced match and in most cases it will sound better. |
@kijanki. Well put. You are righ on the king cobra. A long time ago I replaced them with a Nordost tyr and it wasn't even close. They do make a difference. You just have to decide what it's worth. At the time I got the tyr used so I got a deal. I understand. It depends on want your hear and if it meet your own requirement. |
Calvinj, replacing AQ Indigo with Acoustic Zen Satori brought, in addition to more refined sound, fuller lower midrange I was looking for with my class D amp (try to explain this in terms of R,L,C). Cello now sounds real, male voices have "chestiness" etc. Acoustic Zen Absolute replaced my AQ King Cobra. Even with short (0.5m) XLR cable I was able to hear increased dynamics, cleaner sound, darker background and more "space" between instruments. Perhaps it was overkill for my modest system (I bought it cheap), but as David12 mentioned it is non-perishable component that will stay with me until I kick the bucket. Would I benefit from even better cables? Perhaps not, getting older, I'm at the point of diminishing returns, have to be careful with the money and my hearing is not going to get any better in the future. Would I tell other people what they can or cannot hear, or would I start thread like this? Hell no. |
you guys are still equating price to quality , or being good ? It is fine to live in a fantasy land . Those of us in reality realize price and fancy jackets do not provide sound . The natural elements of the earth inside the cable do . So why charge someone a ridiculous amount for these elements ? Because a fool is born everyday LOL |
@kijanki. Thanks for you response. I see it all the time. I spent last night listening to a jazz track by Marc Cary called 7th street North and changed power cords and interconnects out. I had three different power cords and sets of interconnects. I listened to the same sound for about 3 hours while doing the switching. You get all different flavors of sound it's depends what you personally like and can hear. I enjoyed almost all of them but like some better than others. I went by my friend Bill's house yesterday. He used to have a carpeted room now he has hardwoods and it changed the entire sound of his room. I have an odd shaped room with high ceilings and wood floors and I know that's part my challenge room acoustics. There is not a lot I can do because it's our main area. I make the best of it.@david12. Your answer is simple and well thought out. Very informative on ways to look at your system and what you are willing to spend as well as other things you can do to tweak your system. I'm actually going to change my rug position in the room and do a couple of tweaks as well. Has anyone here ever used still points? @others we are all crazy accept it. Lol. We are not normal! |
I agree with many of the comments, particularly "what is expensive?" In the context of my modest system, a $50000+ cable loom of Crystal Cable Dreamline or Nordost Odin say, would be insane, but in a $500000 system, maybe not. It is quite another subject, whether a $500000 system is insane, I think it is, but I am not a Hedge Fund executive, with to much money and not enough to spend it on. There is no question in my mind, that cables make a difference, sometimes only a difference, not an improvement and that takes time to judge. That is all cables, I was initially sceptical about Power Cables, now I think they can make a massive difference. So I am prepared to pay in the region of $500 to a 1000, retail for cables, preferably a lot less second hand. That to me, my wallet my system, is the comfort zone. It will be different for others and that is for them to decide, it's their money. Two big areas of advantage in the cable area as opposed to other equipment. Firstly, cost of entry is low, so there are many one man and his dog outfits out there, selling direct, with minimal advertising and non fancy packaging, that I have found are better value for money than some of the bigger outfits. In no particular order, WyWires, Morrow, Silnote and Sablon Audio, come to mind. Secondly, second hand prices are often very good, particularly for a product with a potential very long life. No transistors, Styli, speaker cones or tubes to be replaced. So to me, sensible purchase of wires, along with other accessories, vibration devices, power supplies etc, can bring a bigger bang for your buck than replacing Speakers, Amps or sources. They can make a good system great and give long term satisfaction, with no need for further tinkering. That is where I believe I am now, I'd better be, retirement means I can'nt go on indulging in new big purchases. |
Reading this thread has made me realize a few things. You have guys who either can't afford or won't buy expensive cables calling the guys that do crazy or foolish. Either they envy or think they are smarter than the guys that will. Which brings up another question. Why does it matter if someone else pays for something with their own money? Some people buy houses, cars, jewelry and watches etc. yup! Everyone values things differently. The way it sounds to one's ear sets what someone is willing to pay. It's laughable that anyone thinks what we pay for speakers is reasonable or equipment or cables. Buy what you can afford or willing to pay for. Don't let envy set in if you can't do it. Don't think you are smarter than what you are because you won't do it. We all are addicts when it comes to this music. Accept it don't try to find reason why you are different. Just different levels. The truth is you are no different from the guy who do buy the expensive cables. It's laughable that you think you are. Twwritg. Lol. Yeah lol. I'm old. |
Yup.lol old people like me. I still use my CD player too.lol. Anyway things can be really system dependent. Some cables are a system match for your gear. Recording, room, acoustics, equipment, type of music, recording quality all play a part. I think when you have heard a really high end system you understand how good it can get. So folks never get to hear the real high need systems. I have. Is it worth what people pay. It depends on you. You put the best cables you can afford on it and roll with it. |
Geoffkait - I'm afraid it's not that easy. I have heard systems that did not reveal differences in cables. Who knows why? r u referring to your own system ? I have had two manufacturers of amps/pre/phono's, both EE's (Electronic Engineers) sit in my listening chair and listen to music. They both heard differences when I changed out various cables. This included gear running balanced and se signals. Interestingly , when I first reached out to them about their products, they told me cables don't matter. One of them didn't even offer power cables with his gear, because "my customers usually have their own power cables". My opinion is these manufacturers don't play in this space and quite frankly, I think that admitting to customers that cables can make a difference, might imply some kind of weakness in the gear. This totally ignores the fact that The Room and power going into the room are both Alpha over the amp/pre's/ phono's......and everything else in there too. |
I envy those who spend little on cables, not being able to hear differences in sound quality between various offerings. Although it's true that the prices on many cables are obscenely inflated, and that there's plenty of hype to around, it's also true that cables do make a significant difference. I'm obviously a believer but that comes from having done a lot of listening and owning a lot of cables. It's also true that there are ethical cable makers who offer game changing products at relatively reasonable prices. Some of these can and do sound 'better' than those costing far more. |
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the blank look on his face. he still doesn't hear her. 8^) Bingo Just a cartoon sure, but the message to me is powerful - this dude has some serious endorphins flowing ... I run every morning and by the end of the run, I have a nice endorphins release. Its all downhill after that until I can recreate this release later in the day with another activity. That's the drive for me. I look forward to my music for this reason. This is a phenomena "the endorphins release" that for me personally takes place in Music Lover mode. Not in Audiophile mode (Audiophilia nervosa) If I am dissecting the music into sounds highs, mids, lows (like when setting up a room) there is no release. Setting up a room is a lot of fun, but its like a project , a temporary thing; till I can get the balance working in the room to trigger the effect - for me. Do I hear differences in cables, interconnects, wires ? Hell yeah. But once I have achieved the above, I know "usually" to stop and enjoy the music. Other hobbies also keep me honest to myself. I happen to live in a climate that has real winter. I need Music to help me get through it. The dwellings in order to deal with frost have full basements. You can go pretty crazy with a hobby like this if not careful. Going forward if we ever move house, my experience tells "me", I should look to capture the above with as little outlay as possible since this is all about myself. This probably means I will will be selling off some wires, cables, interconnects down the road. It is in my personal interest to therefore hear good audiophile stories about how cables did good things for them. :^) Just sayin' - imo..ime btw - I have yet to find a better definition of "Nearfield" than that Pic. That Poker Face (blank look) is also a great tool for all married audiophiles. Known my for wife 30 years since I was 23. Happy Listening (with whatever cables help to get the endorphins rolling for you... ) :^) |
Yes I'm going to keep extras from now on to mix and match I just found a match when tube rolled my CD player. You just never. If you can afford the best get them. If you can't be resourceful as possible and get the best you. Or if you think chicken wire works do that but don't judge others because they can do what you can't or choose to do what you won't. lol you know in this hobby we all have to have our music meds. We are all medicating of the music juice. We are not normal Chris Rock plays a drug addict in a movie called New Jack City his eyes are buck wide and his famous scene goes. " I be trying to kick the habit but it be calling me. It be calling me" |
- Now hear this Hmmm. What do you guys (no women here right ? ) think stands out the most in the above ? a) The hairstyles b) The fashions being worn c) How about that nice listening chair d) the gear (speakers) e) maybe the placement of the chair in relation to the gear (speakers) f) how about the price shown g) something else maybe ... |
Calvinj,+1 Simply enjoy what you have and for those who can afford better, so be it. I've kept all my speaker wires since I've started this hobby and the pay off is worth it. Solid core, multi strand, bare and tinned coated, and it pays to be able to swap out and experiment depending on amp and speakers as there's no one solution. This can help narrow down what you need to perfect your system to your satisfaction, and if necessary, narrow down you choices on where to go next. Aside from that, I don't know where to go next with this thread. All the best, Nonoise |
"Compelled to buy " ...... Hardly. "Elective to do so".... Absolutely, if (A) you have the quality build kit with the resolution capabilities to make it work and --ergo-- make it worthwhile. (B) Here's a litmus test reported by a third party attending reporter who was reporting on the shared observations of the thousands of attendees at the TAVES audio expo in Toronto in Nov 2014. NORDOST ran its demonstration symposiums and the following is the reporters review in Canadahifi mag. With reference to (A) above , his conclusions summarize it well Nordost "... I had a chance to sit in on a couple demonstrations in the Nordost room, giving my feet a well deserved break. I’m very familiar with the benefits of high quality cables and use a full Nordost Heimdall 2 loom with my reference two-channel setup. That being said, I always find the Nordost demonstrations to be an “ear-opening” experience. Michael Taylor from Nordost demonstrated the significant sonic benefits of replacing an OEM cable with a Nordost model – in particular 1) a swap of a single USB cable, from OEM to Nordost Blue Heaven ($250/2m), to Heimdall 2 ($500/2m) and; 2) a swap of a single RCA interconnect, from OEM, to Blue Heaven, to Heimdall 2, to Tyr 2 and finally Valhalla 2. Along with convincing the audience in the room that cables DO matter, I’ve now got the bug to upgrade...." |
@mikelavigne. I know you have spent a lot of time and resources on your all out assault of achieving the best sound in your system possible. Enjoy it. I used to look at audio and said I would never spend this much or that much. I heard a raidho system with solutions electronics( and yes it had Tara labs cabling) lol!!! And it was amazing. The sound of that is stuck in my head. A lot of audiophiles will never hear something that mind blowing ever. It changes your perspective. If you enjoy it then do it. I'm pretty sure you have researched you system extensively and you know what you are talking about. You made some great points in your post. System synergy and cost are tricky. I think that those who can't do an all out assault on audio wish they could. Man keep living the the dream and enjoy it. There is not a need. You want it and you enjoy it. Go get the things you want and for those who can't do it. Do the best with what you are willing to spend. I told somebody once I spent 300 on speakers back in the day and they thought I was crazy. Everybody. We all are crazy quit trying to act like you have sanity and everybody else doesn't. There is no voice of reason on this thread. In this hobby there is no reason we all are nutty. Lol. Don't talk just listen. |
As quoted in one of the worst movies ever (but great for a hearty belly laugh), Plan Nine From Outer Space, the alien states, "you Earth Men are idiots." Of course, in some cases, you can substitute "audiophile" for "Earth Men." Ok, don't get angry, just having some fun at all our expense.😇😀💋🙉. Haha! |
4orreal, mmm, you missed the part of Mikelavigne's post that said he liked the Taralabs Grandmaster interconnect better than the cable interface he mentioned, also, taralabs makes a cable for any given system in the world, they have the new rich sounding Grandmaster Evolution SP speaker cable's, and Evolution omega sp speaker cable's for wide band width speakers and amplifiers, also they have ism on board interconnect cable's to suit particular systems that require a warmer sound to rid brightness that some systems have, and I will add they also have the new cx omega speaker cable's that are one lead for each speaker instead of two for each channel, that said, prove to me you own or listened to a better cable than taralabs?, I'm open minded to anything, a better cable for me has not happened in 25 years! |
4orrel, you are welcome. and I'd agree that few high end cables are high value purchases on an objective basis; Tara included. the concept of 'overpriced' is a relative term based on a person's priorities. OTOH based on my experience with the very top level interconnects and now my ownership of 2 sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution interconnects that Audiolabyrinth might not be wrong. they could be the best. if there is any 'best'. I've not had Odin 2 or TA Magnum Opus in my system. |
Audiolabyrinth, Hi mikelavigne, did you know Dan D'Agostino invented the cable interface you have?, Dan did this when he was still with krell back in the late 90's, it is called krell cast wrong. the Krell CAST system has nothing to do with the 50ohm BNC interface of the darTZeel 'Zeel' interface. other than it's proprietary to a specific manufacturer. they are totally different concepts. and if we are discussing the Zeel interface compared to the Tara Labs, one only need go to page 3 of the August 2012 Review of the darTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks to read this snippet from Michael Fremer comparing what happened when he switched from his Tara Zero interconnects to the (10% as spendy) very very cheap 'Zeel'. snippet below. At Delétraz's urging, and because I own one of his NHB-18NS preamps, I had substituted his 50 ohm, BNC-terminated, coaxial Zeel interconnect for my TARA Labs Zero. I don't have the space here to discuss transmission-line theory, or why Delétraz believes his Zeel connection is superior to any standard interconnect, especially in terms of eliminating electrical reflections. (Years ago, before he began making amps and preamps, he wrote a paper about this for Stereophile's November 2001 issue—also see this article.) In any case, the relatively inexpensive Zeel cable connection took everything I've described above to an even higher level of clarity, dimensionality, and harmonic and textural purity. as great as the Tara Grandmaster Evolution I'm using is; if these new dacs had the zeel interface I would have used it instead of buying this crazy spendy cable. I think that the Grandmaster sounds better than the 'zeel' does.....but at 5% of the cost I would not have even thought about it. |
