WHY CABLES MATTER!

@smurfstain it depends on the the different equipment you have heard. Some equipment like some non tube equipment has very low noise floors which will,let you hear more of the music because it will come from a blacker background.  Sometimes it’s the combination of the equipment and cables working together to keep the non music noise out the system. Also a lot depends on equipment design. Some designers and builders of equipment design their equipment to keep lower noise floors by designing equipment the reduces distortion so it works better. Some of those will be your higher end designers. Some don’t have to be high end the just design the equipment well so it keep the noise lower. If they do that then if it’s designed properly and has good cable synergy it allows the system to be more resolving. It will allow you to hear differences in cables, sources etc. That’s the way I see it. 

Okay.  That was clearly too many questions.  Let’s start with the basics then, I guess.  What is the definition of “high resolving” when it comes to audio?

@smurfstain being able to deliver a level of detail where the music comes out of a completely black background so you can actually hear the components and what your system is doing. I literally can hear guys breath and mumble in the background of non vocal content as an example. No ssssssss no tube hiss. No noise in background. 

@smurfstain -

@smurfstain -

     Here's a resource that may interest you:

       https://www.usedcable.com/about-us

     Look into their Cable Library, with regards to the rental/audition program and how you can test cables in your own system, for a mere pittance, compared to their original purchase prices.

      Anything spent on such a rental will be applied to purchases.

      At least: that's how it used to work, over the decades I dealt with them.

                                       Happy listening!

@rodman99999 thats why I let people demo our Infigo stuff before they buy.  I don’t know their system the way they do. I want them to be happy.  There are so many ways to waste money in Audio. 

I don’t have a system, currently.  I’m just getting into this.  So what you are saying is that I just go buy stuff and see if it works?  That seems like a lousy way to start.  I don’t want to buy equipment unless it will be top notch.  

Omg.

 I’m just getting into this.  So what you are saying is that I just go buy stuff and see if it works?

                                         Not necessarily.

      Many cable vendors have fairly knowledgeable people manning their phone lines & e-mails*, available to guide you, based on your equipment, finances and listening habits/desires.

      Other than that: research what's out there and read opinions/reviews on what piques your interest.

       Take advantage of those that offer 30 day return policies, if you must.

       Use some common sense and you won't waste any money.   

                       *ie: https://www.usedcable.com/free-consult  

and: https://www.synergisticresearch.com/cables/foundation/foundation-ic/#:~:text=We%20are%20so%20confident%20these,house%20sound%20is%20all%20about.

@rodman99999 First you say 

No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition.   There are simply too many variables.

     LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc)  will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.

Then….

Many cable vendors have fairly knowledgeable people manning their phone lines & e-mails*, available to guide you, based on your equipment, finances and listening habits/desires.

Why would it matter what those knowledgeable people say?  I’m not trying to be obtuse here, but that makes no sense.  I feel like you are trying to sell me on these websites.  
 

So back to my original questions, but more specific:

1.  Can you name one attribute you look for in speakers that tells you they will be “high enough resolving” when researching a purchase?

2.  Can you name one attribute you look for in amplifiers that tells you that they will be “high enough resolving” when researching a purchase?

I have no idea, at this point, whether cables make a difference because I’m currently looking at system options to purchase.  But it appears that I won’t have any luck with cables unless my system is “high enough resolving”.  That is what I’m shooting for.  There has to be a way to look at these things prior to purchasing that will give me an idea of how they perform, correct?  Some of these speakers and amps weigh hundreds of pounds, and even with free return shipping will be a giant pain to return.  

I am beginning to think that high-end audio might not be for you.

"Why would it matter what those knowledgeable people say?"  

       Because they have years of experience with a myriad of listening tastes/desires, cables and components.

       The goal would be to narrow down the variables, based on that familiarity.

"I’m not trying to be obtuse here... "

       I suppose: some are just innately better at it than others.

These oft-repeating cable threads have one entirely predictable outcome of a Mexican standoff between two irascible polar opposite cohorts of naysayers versus advocates. Each side has absolutely NIL-chance of every convincing the other party to change their beliefs.

So no one can discuss how you would start to purchase a “high resolving system” short of talking to “experts” at some recommended website? There is literally nothing you can look at in the specs of the various audio equipment out there that can guide me?

@dill - Why? Because I’m asking questions?

@akg_ca I don’t have a “side”.  I just want some information.  Calvin said you had to have a “high enough resolving system” to appreciate cord upgrades, and I would like to know how to get that sort of system.  There has to be some way to go about doing this.  Well, some way that doesn’t involve demoing cords from some questionable websites.  

@smurfstain 

The best way to put system together is to start with how much you want to invest.

Then consider usage by the media you will use to listen to music.

Cables are a terrible place to start and this thread is the worst of the worst.

How much you want to spend, not invest. 

"Why? Because I’m asking questions?"

- You are asking questions that really can only be answered by your own experience. Most here have had many years listening to many types & brands of gear. One persons dream system won’t be another’s as people hear things differently. There are no shortcuts, you gotta do the time and it looks like you are looking for shortcuts.

@dill-

                                   +1   

  And/or: decades of the real thing, which lends a perspective.

@smurfstain

”… I just want some information. Calvin said you had to have a “high enough resolving system” to appreciate cord upgrades, and I would like to know how to get that sort of system. There has to be some way to go about doing this. Well, some way that doesn’t involve demoing cords from some questionable websites. …”

This is a personal journey and not a fast ‘n dirty fix thinking it’s THE END destination based on this or any other audio forum thread, while embarking on your Yellow Brick Road to audio Oz. Simply put, roll up your sleeves and just go audition and experiment for yourself to stress-test the skepticism or cynicism.

(1) Locally, toddle down to your local bricks and mortar dealer to audition various options inserted on their best system. The differences generally are clear and unambiguous,

(2) next ,,,l Think attending a regional audio expo personally, where you can ask questions as you immerse yourself in the many “high resolution” systems and cables. You will immediately know them in the experience by osmosis .
And keep one key think in mind: ask why there is a clear best performance delivery reason that high-end (and cost) NORDOST ODIN and VALHALLA model cables, along with CARDAS CLEAR BEYOND and CLEAR cable models; collectively form the largest share of audio cables selected by the OEM exhibitors to showcase their units at their best. It would be a helluva marketing tool otherwise for them to to chirp that “ we still sound at our best even with cheap shite build and cheap price cables! “

For example, the major high-end cable exhibitors frequently also have workshop demos wherein they progressively take you up their model lines to show the audio performance upticks available.

I will rehash a prior post going back a few years ago of an annual high-end audio audio expo up here in Toronto that I also attended .

as a vivid example , here is the CANADA HI-FI reporter’s take from the NORDOST cables bake-off exhibit actually performed live . They stopped at the improving model bakeoff summit at the Valhallas (one below the Odins) with the inference that with a progressive move up the cables model line, the audio performance improvements keeps getting better .

http://canadahifi.com/taves-consumer-el ... rge-de-sa/

".....I had a chance to sit in on a couple demonstrations in the Nordost room, giving my feet a well deserved break. I’m very familiar with the benefits of high quality cables and use a full Nordost Heimdall 2 loom with my reference two-channel setup.
That being said, I always find the Nordost demonstrations to be an “ear-opening” experience. Michael Taylor from Nordost demonstrated the significant sonic benefits of replacing an OEM cable with a Nordost model – in particular

1) a swap of a single USB cable, from OEM to Nordost Blue Heaven ($250/2m), to Heimdall 2 ($500/2m) and;

2) a swap of a single RCA interconnect, from OEM, to Blue Heaven, to Heimdall 2, to Tyr 2 and finally Valhalla 2.

Along with convincing the audience in the room that cables DO matter, I’ve now got the bug to upgrade...."

I was in agreement along with the many others attending hobby fans .

choose wisely.

So where I’m at now is “how much do you want to spend”, and “you just have to have experience”?  While I appreciate your response, @dill , what are you going to tell your buddy that is looking to get into audio?  Is it just, “yeah, it sucks man, but you just have to get out there and buy something and see where it goes”?  

It seems to me that a “high resolving system” should be reasonably attainable no matter who the listener is, short of legitimate hearing loss.  If the criteria include almost zero noise floor and being able to hear fingers on fretboards and people breathing behind the scenes, that should all be pretty straightforward to engineer.  Well, as long as these sounds are actually in the recording to start with.  

@akg_ca "Each side has absolutely NIL-chance of every convincing the other party to change their beliefs."

Man aint that the truth. LOL 🤣. And, what’s even more hilarious and bizarre is how one side argues against something they’ve never actually tried before.

@magnuman please leave me alone. You are not a customer of ours. You are not going to do any business with us.  All you do is go back and forward.  We let customers try a lot of our cables before they buy them so they can see and hear for themselves.  Honestly, I’m not interested in going back and forward with you anymore.  You are free to do whatever you like but I’m not interested in going back and forward with you.  You have your mind made up despite never hearing our cables. Etc.  take care. 

Charming fellow, he is like an attack dog so the avatar is proper. . 

@ericgale i don’t get it. He doesn’t know anything about us. He doesn’t know what we are using or doing. We let people demo before they buy. Why would I even respond to him. It’s sad. This is one of the reasons I left Audiogon. One person comes in and destroys the entire thread. He has been on here for years. Changing his name. BOBBY BOOSHAY! Constantly yapping about occ 99999999 cooper etc yappity yap etc. 

@smurfstain

high-end audio sonic preferences is highly subjective, there is no perfect system or component- it’s all a facsimile of real music. Also, we have different budgets. Bottom line, we cannot tell you what you’ll like. What we can do is make suggestions based on our knowledge and experience, but it’s up to you to try or not. Most here have tried various components as we try to change or improve sonics.

Years ago when I started from scratch, I spent years researching many reviews including TAS (The Absolute Sound) and Stereophile magazines, forums, other online. Also demoed components at high-end audio stores and major audio shows like AXPONA. I spent years researching before purchasing my analog + digital audio chains.

Where to start? Decide SS (solid state) or tube sonics/amplification, or start with speakers first then choose matching electronics afterwards.  Yes, this is a lot of effort, but we do it to maximize our sonics on our limited budgets. 

Stereophile has a recommended component list here, and TAS prints an annual copy (November 2023) Annual Buyers Guide including a Top 50 Greatest Bargains in High-End Audio like this old list here.

So, I bought a pair of AQ rocket 88, and swapped them with my Supra Quadrax set. My system sounds awesome now. Except it sounded awesome before the switch. And it sounded awesome with the 7 gauge WBC ultimate I had before Supra. So, if there are differences, they’re EXTREMELY subtle. My hearing is perfect. I’m a good listener. I started to feel like maybe the 88’s were adding just the slightest positive effect. But when I put my Supra back in, I couldn’t really tell if I really heard that difference.

My point is, I’ve tried it. My system is very good, very resolving. And yet, going from a $175, to a $350, to a $1200 pair of cables, any difference I heard, and really tried to hear was so subtle as to leave me very doubtful.

That’s been my experience after being into high end audio since the 90’s.

@megabyte I’ve had the opposite experience.  Different equipment, hearing, sources , synergy etc.  

From Wikipedia:  "many marketers of high-end speaker cables cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance or resonance; properties which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these have any measurable effect at audio frequencies"

@skeptikal 

Your tag was well chosen!

Lot of snake oil out there.  If you like Audioholics, here is a good video.  I choose my name a while back while reading that millercarbon thread on Moabs.  He talked about a lot of stuff that I researched and all of it is pretty much bogus.  I still want Moabs but it would be financially irresponsible at this time.

All of our systems are unique. Listen and do what’s best for you and your system. Do your research but trust your own ears. 

I switched from blue jean speaker cables to Kimber kable 8tc and heard a substantial difference in audio quality. I am now a true believer cables make a difference imo.🤑

@stephen141111 i can’t see how some can say they don’t but I do have to understand that I can hear their systems. Cables definitely make a difference in the system. A good set of cables in a good system icing on the cake. 

@calvinj 

I suspect that many naysayers:

1. Haven’t tried it themselves 
2. Tried on an audio chain not transparent enough, the noise floor including ambient is not low enough, or their hearing is not sensitive enough.  This is tough to point out as it can be interpreted as insulting 
3. Have an exaggerated ideas - they complain about expensive cables vs what we normally advise - “only very conservatively buy cabling to match the level of the audio chain”.
4. It greatly bugs them not knowing justification for costs above basic wiring.  We have conductors, Dielectric material(s), Dielectric geometry, Shield design/material, Jacket design/material.  They’re stuck on the price vs cost.  They are fixed on emotional resentment usually stemming from unaffordability.
5. They complain that cable manufacturers aren’t forthcoming in providing justification data, but downplay/ignore the fact that if they reveal their processes, copycat companies would steal sales.  

I simply look at cost/benefit within my budget.  Griping rarely does any good, it won’t change how cable manufacturers operate.  

I’m getting better at ignoring naysayers- they’ll always be around so it’s fruitless to try to fix- maybe might help some, but there will always be more

@kennyc GOLD STAR FOR KENNY C. I couldn’t agree with you more.  You hit every point. Man this is the best point I’ve seen in a while. You hit every point. I agree. 

@kennyc if you try to,tell them that they become offended and they shouldn’t. I think I have been in a position by hard work and happenstance to hear a lot of gear and learn about cables, equipment, design and experiences with some really high level equipment. I remembered one of my earlier experiences with a veloce Ls1 battery operated pre amplifier. Because it wasn’t plugged in to a wall. It absolutely had a zero noise floor. The music came from a black background. It was airy and buttery soft but with detail. I knew then that there were levels to this . I think I have found that sound again with my current set up. Low noise equipment. Clear and quiet cabling that’s transparent and lets the music flow. My set up isn’t the only way to,get there but a way to get there. Some will get offended but there is some really good stuff out here.  Some of it is just cost prohibitive for most.

@skeptikal 

From Wikipedia:  "many marketers of high-end speaker cables cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance or resonance; properties which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these have any measurable effect at audio frequencies"

 a lot of stuff that I researched and all of it is pretty much bogus. 

Skeptics need to read less and listen more.

There is nothing out there you can read that will yield proof that different cables sound different.

Just go to a hi fi store, be upfront and tell them you are not buying anything, but you are a cable skeptic and see if they will prove to you that more money spent will present a higher quality listening experience. I don't think they will decline. 

@calvinj

This article can answer your questions. https://www.chenaudiolab.com/id49.html

So everyone understands. I been in this 20 years 16 as an audiophile. Another 4 in the industry. I have listened to over 50 brands of cables.  I was the ear for our Infigo  brand.  Yes cables make a difference to my ears. If they don’t to yours I’m fine with that. I’m actually ocd on cables so I know.  I respect your opinion but to my ears I’m right.  Never gonna convince me otherwise. I trust my ears 

The cable matters to me.

Listen PC comparison video. Power cords comparison - JPS, Zentara cable, Wavetouch power cord listening comparison. The difference is clear. Click time marks (below of YT screen) to hear different cables directly. Alex/WTA

@mihorn will do. 

Cables are like my mother in law... They make a difference everywhere in my house. ( she is everywhere anyway near 100 😊)

But it is nothing compared to my speakers (wife) and to my amplifier (me) ...

Anyway nothing matter compared to my children they are our dedicated acoustic room ...

All sound well thanks to them at the end ...

😊

«Any system is a family but we must tweak it »--  Anonymus audiophile

A refreshment about Chinese audio cables  technology :😉

https://twitter.com/Kanthan2030/status/1776854294320296175

Cables are like my mother in law... They make a difference everywhere in my house. ( she is everywhere anyway near 100 😊)

Hifi cable ---> rejects noise well.

Mom-in-law ---> spews noise all over the place

Big difference between mom-in-law and hifi cable. 🕴

I think i induced all people in error...😁

I apologize...

My mother in law being an exception is like a cable going on from one room to another without noise...

You are right ! I am wrong ... It is my mother in law that is faulty here compared to all the others one  ... ☺😁😊

Hifi cable ---> rejects noise well.

Mom-in-law ---> spews noise all over the place

Big difference between mom-in-law and hifi cable. 🕴

@calvinj 

All of our systems are unique. Listen and do what’s best for you and your system. Do your research but trust your own ears.

What does this mean?  What “research”?  I realize the best seems to be “cost prohibitive for most”, but hey, at least you can give people a place to start, correct?  Isn’t that what good salesmen do?  
 

I have yet to hear you say anything of substance, really.  Again, what do you look for in the Infigo line that makes it such high quality?  How will this brand help me synergize my cables?  What makes it better than other brands?  Sell your stuff!  Surely you can at least do that, right?

@smurfstain maybe it’s not words that are substantial to you.  Do your research. There are dealers , cable lending libraries and free trial.  Hell I even let people try before they buy. I have yet to hear you say something substantial outside attack me for being a dealer and having the nerve to post on a forum.   Anyway. Everybody will do a lot on their own to figure out their systems. Try the things I mentioned and go from there.  Anyway happy listening.  Best wishes.  

"I have yet to hear you say anything of substance,"

- pot - kettle - black