When I say voicing, I am referring to models following traditional UK speaker values. KEF, B&W, Harbeth, Neat, Kudos etc are all British but all are voiced differently.
Even Spendor, which has a Classic line also has a more modern sounding floor standing series. The treble sparkles a bit more. The bass is faster and tighter, though not a lot deeper and the midrange is a bit more forward.
I have found traditional US speakers are more full range with extended treble and deeper base but the upper mid range was less refined. And in the old days, the west coast sound was big and brash while the east coast sound was more like UK speakers.
Most companies today build speakers that defy their country of origin. I would say big Klipsch speakers might embody traditional US values but companies like Wilson or Joseph make fabulous neutral full range speakers that would compare against other full range modern designs from Focal, Dynaudio, KEF or B&W. |
Banerjba I own harbeth and dynaudio.Dynaudio shines at loud listening levels.More punchier sound compared to harbeths,bigger sound impression.Addictive sound |
I agree with Banerjba every word.
I'm addicted to dynamic and plan to build room for Wilson, but until then I'm planning to enjoy my time with Harbeth. I just order Super HLS5+ |
harbeth are not overpriced at all compared to wilson audio, magico, ect.
they may seem overpriced compared to revel f208/f206. anyone compared a harbeth to a revel f206/208?
they are quite pricey but imo offer very special qualities. The only reason I dont have a harbeth is bass issue: not a fan of that cabinet. |
At first I got a pair of SHL5s which were great. But that was in my audiomania phase. I tried to supplant the SHL5s with many high end monitors from the top companies. Many came very close but they came and went and I held onto the SHL5. Then I added P3ESRs. Then I got 30.1s...and C7s and finally the 40.1s. Yes, I was addicted. When I had all 5 at once, I knew something had to be done.
And that's how I became a dealer! Now I have a great excuse to own so many and spread what I see as a highly worthwhile gospel. |
Murphythecat: Even larger cabinet of the P3ESR cannot product enoug tight bass? I admit Harbeth is not overprice but neither it's affordable for normal citizen, it's kinda luxury items. For same price, you need some more time and efforts to find speakers that is even better or same as |
Some member needs to post a thread asking to list which speakers are in their honest opinion a rip off and possibly why so. Even a venerable company like Harbeth seems to be moving toward this list based on some of the responds I have read here.
I think such a list would help potential buyers rethink spending over $6000 and beyond for speakers. In addition, I think it is fair to ask manufacturers how manufacturing costs and residuals costs compute to the determine the final retail price of their speaker or speakers
Please don't insult the intelligence of some members like myself by floating the tired theory of "perceived value" Personally, I think that is crap and a spurious argument at best to empty ones bank account. Lastly, in mounting the above criticism, I don't think anyone who agrees is trying to tell you how to spend your money. |
Sunnyjim,
You may not want to hear it, but most purchases are about "perceived value". There is no question that the prices of Harbeth speakers have spiraled toward the heavens in recent years. I recall an older review of the Model 40 from Enjoy the Music some years back when those particular speakers were less than $7k. Now they are more than double the price.
I think they are worth the current asking price in comparison to other similarly priced speakers on the market, and apparently so do other listeners, or Harbeth wouldn't be selling them at that price.
The fact that I can't afford them does not make them a "rip off".
Your proposal is silly. |
@Sunnyjim
You can feel free to ask manufacturers about their input costs, but you are no more entitled to know manufacturing input costs than I am to know how many times members on this forum are fornicating with their partners. When you bought your last clothes dryer, did you request the input cost of the rotating tumbler used in that particular machine?
As for the "tired theory of perceived value", that's known as the Austrian school of economics which basically espouses that an item is worth whatever someone will pay, for the value/utility/enjoyment derived from that item, taking into account the cost of possible substitutes for that item. Which contrasts with what I suspect you are espousing, which is basic Chicago school theory that the cost of an item should be directly correlated with its input costs, largely irrespective of perceived value. I won't get into a debate about both camps here (unless you want to), but suffice it to say that it's very easy to shoot holes in the input-cost model, i.e. just because someone puts two hours of time @ $15 per hour into carving a toothpick doesn't mean toothpicks should cost $30. And it goes both ways - if the manufacturing cost of a plastic comb is 4 cents but you're about to walk into a job interview and you need a comb and don't have one you may pay $20 for one.
Be careful before you dump on the concept of perceived value - we all pay it, in all walks of life for products from every category. You yourself will pay "perceived value", in some department store or supermarket, before this week is done.
Roxy54 is right - if Harbeth speakers weren't "worth" the money, people wouldn't pay it and they wouldn't sell anything. I don't own Harbeth, never have, but I appreciate their place in the market and their position in the minds of music lovers. |
Roxy, I hardly feel it is appropriate to state my proposal as being silly. So, in your vaulted opinion, where does the glass ceiling end. You mentioned an older review of the Model 40 in ETM listing the speakers 7K which jumped to approx. $13,000 to $14,000. Geez, how did that occur, did Harbeth workers get an unexpected and large per hour raise. Elevated and run away costs of new materials; engineering design changes priced out in terms of hours of research and development, and special personnel.....or was it just old fashion " what the market will bear" or to say it another way, we need to dramatically increase profit margins by say 50-60% instead of a reasonable increase of 25%-30%
I don't know what Mr. Harbeth and his Board of Directors were thinking and neither do you. All we know is that the buyer will be required to pay for the item if he/she wants it.
Begator, No we need not get into a debate; I never liked any of the political, social, and this case, economic theories that came out of the Chicago School However, you can go back to Jeremy Bentham's utilitarian theory of value which was one of the sources the Chicago School used. Even Karl Marx in his interesting if not classic essay "Alienated Labor" used a type of romanticized utilitarian theory to argue for the "value" a workman gives (and imbues) to the product he assembles by his labor and craftmanship
Sorry, I read these guy and more when studying for my Ph.d exams in History. Lastly, we are not considering the relative cost of combs, light bulbs, pliers or widgets, but electronically sophisticated products.
No one in his right mind wants to pay retail for audio products, because if that was generally true, many of us would not daily monitor the lists of used products on Audiogon. Cheers. |
Sunnyjim,
I apologize if I caused offense; I didn't mean to. The way I read your comments though seems tilted far to the economic side of the subject, even citing certain schools of thought which I readily admit I have never even heard of.
I think it is easy to get lost there. The point is that this is all about individual perception of value based on the enjoyment the user receives from their purchase.
I thought that your use of the term "rip-off" was over the top because, after all, none of these companies are forcing us to buy their products.
In the end, we all speak with our wallets, and the reasons for price increases (which are usually profit based) are not really that important to the argument. If the item is priced too high relative to (dirty words) "perceived value", it won't sell.
It's just about having fun. |
If the price of Harbeth bothers you,then you should take a look at Joseph Audio,ATC,Wilson,Magico,etc. Do you have a problem with those guys? Even KEF makes $20,000 speakers and they're made in China! |
Sunnyjim, nobody is debating paying retail - I'm quite certain that's a debate you'll rarely encounter here. I like paying closer to wholesale, I'm sure most people do. We all like discounts, we all like finding bargains.
At issue here is what seems to your belief that manufacturers should only be entitled to some pre-determined profit margin, directly tied to proportional increases in input costs - as you alluded to with your "reasonable increase of 25-30%" comment, and wanting to know manufacturer costs before making a purchase (which ironically is sort of Marxian, don't you think?).
Where we do agree is in your pointing out that we are talking about electronically sophisticated products, not disposable items like combs and light bulbs. Manufacturers must maintain excess component inventory so that they can service these products after the sale, so that when a moving company drops your speakers you can get immediate replacements. The larger the customer base, the larger the required service inventory. I'm not suggesting that this is the reason for higher margins, only that there are many factors that may account for any company's price structure increasing.
But like everyone says, we all vote with our wallets. That's the beauty of a free market economy, when we actually allow it to work (which is as rare as unicorns these days).
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Yogi boy, compared to Wilson or Magico, Harbeth seems like a bargain. |
Taters, compared to many other brands,Harbeths are a mere bag of shells! |
and wilson or magico is complete rip off. whats the argument then? |
Murphy,
Congratulations on your intelligent contribution. I especially like the way you support your statement with reasons. |
Murphy the cat, I am not saying Wilson or Magico is a rip off. I am just saying that Harbeth is a bargain compared to Wilson or Magico. |
I have had in my room with wilson audio cub 2, my amphion one18 at 3k absolutely destroy them.
wilsons were what, 10k new?
Selling a speaker 30k is a rip-off no matter how good it is. |
Used Harbeth's, I don't think so. I've been trying to buy a used pair of 40.2s with no luck. Everything for sale is mainly new ones from dealers.
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The line has been around a while, gets lots of praise and this is the place to sell them to people who will appreciate them most.
I've only heard them once, the newer monitors at CAF last year. I liked the sound, as spot on as any at the show, and style but pricey. THey made my list of speakers I am interested in trying someday. |
Because there are much better speakers such as Magico however they are still pretty good.Enjoy!! |
I can't find a dealer list for Harbeth in the US. Fidelis is the distributor but they don't seem to list other dealers. I know there are a few but I'm not sure how much of a presence Harbeth actually has. They get talked about a lot but I'm guessing they aren't as widely owned as you'd guess based on the amount of press and forum chatter they get.
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Deja Vu audio in Mclean Virginia sells Harbeth. I think it was them who demoed Harbeth at last Capital Audiofest. |
I've auditioned Harbeths in Richmond (VA) and in Seattle. I think there are a lot more dealers than there are of, say, Spendor. |
Having had a very nice audition with the Harbeth 40's years ago, I was really impressed, and to this day, I feel sure that I would be happy with them for a long time if not forever. Having said that, I have been shocked at the price increases. I recall that when I read the first review of the 40's on enjoythemusic.com, they were around $6500. A couple of years later, they were around 12k. Now they're around 16k? I assume that the good reviews made Alan think he had underpriced them, but gee... |
Mapman - you are correct that was Vu's "budget" room and I (and JOND) both left quite impressed with the new version of the 30.2's. They were the speaker to beat at tat price point. That said, they or anything else I heard at CAP-fest couldn't compare to Vu's custom/Western Electric setup - WOW! |
Re; Harbeth price .
US dollar has lost over 25% against Euro in last year and that’s the "official "
rate than about 5 banks in the world get .
My neighbor just got back from France, said she got 70 cents Euro for a buck both with AmEx and Visa at ATM's .
Not sure about the pound but English firms do look at Euro to keep profit margin close in all markets .
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That doesn't account for the extreme rise, and it happened well before last year. |
A number of years ago (10 or 15?) I read that when Harbeth started getting more popular they had to decide whether they wanted to upscale the company to meet demand or raise prices and keep their production capabilities stable. They decided to raise prices. I believe it was a John Marks post on audio asylum where I read this but I'm not 100% sure.
You can definitely appreciate why they'd want to do this. If they grow the company and expenses when there's a Harbeth fad they'll be in a tough spot when the fad is over. If they see the enthusiast as their core customer rather than the fad follower they don't want to become dependent on the fad follower. |
That makes some sense. At least their product is worth the price. You may remember Talon loudspeakers. They did the same thing. They got some good press and immediately doubled their prices. Their speakers weren't good enough to justify those prices though, and with all of the competition, they started a slow death spiral, sold out to Rives, and ceased to exist altogether. I think Rives is gone as well. |
The Harbeths at CAF sounded very nice one of the few that left me wanting to come back but gotta say the cost was a shocker for a speaker of that size.
I covered the whole show in about 4-5 hours on Saturday so could only note the rooms that caught my ear but not much extended critical listening in each.
I popped in the larger deja vu room as well and that one did not register for me probably due to way out of any practical budget for me and not the sound I wanted to hear for that. Small rooms make it hard to demonstrate the full value of larger pricier gear for sure so not ideal for that.
The room was a nice size for the Harbeths though and I liked the sound very much.
So much competition at their price point though.
If you seek a very well made, nice looking, good sounding product, the small size for the price point might actually be a selling point for some. I wouldn’t rule that out personally. But if you have room and WAF perhaps not an issue, then lots of competition at the Harbeth price points for sure. |
There is a continuing assumption in audio that great speakers "should"
sound good on any type of music. I am not sure that is totally true in
reality, though it is a noble and worthy goal to pursue if you are
building these things.
..............and that assumption would be correct. |
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