Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Kraftsound, thanks for the leveling this thread dearly needed. One point you made re: "stability of amp dependent on the impedance of the load" has been made before and should be used in every thread on cables. Not every cable can fulfill the need when there are so many variables involved.
Everyone should just use common sense and experiment. I've kept most of the cables I've ever bought and occasionally try them out whenever I change something in the equation (amp, speaker, tone controls, etc.) and use that as a guide.
Just a few days ago I stated, earlier in this thread, that the Zu Event mk1 speaker cables sounded the best in my system. My newish speakers gave me a Dickens of a time as the Accuton drivers are a bear to break in. I finally gave up after settling on the Zu cables and just yesterday, turned the treble boost all the way up on my Marantz and used the Ayre test CD to burn in the tweeter, cables and circuits at that setting. Now I was getting somewhere (all those variables).
It resulted in a much more relaxed treble as opposed to a boosted sound. The burn in helped tremendously. Not being satisfied, I tried some Tempo Electric speaker cables I had since they worked so well when I had the Tonian Labs TL-D1s. Viola! Treble extension is even better extended and defined without any sibilance. Mids are purer and not as forward and bass is better defined with lessened rear port emphasis in the room.
The Tempo Electric cables are just plain old 9 gauge, 4 nines, soft annealed, solid silver core cables in a larger gauge teflon jacket making air the primary dielectric. The sound I'm getting is so much closer to that of the Tonians that I'm somewhat shocked. That, and the price was about $280 back when I got them.
Everything is system dependent and there are no shortcuts. If one is truly into this hobby, then one must be open to and explore all possible avenues available to them.
I haven't read every post here, but one thing I've learned after spending the first half of my life as a musician and being conservatory trained is to never assume someone else cannot hear something just because you can't. OTOH, I congratulate you for deciding with your own ears as opposed to taking someone else's opinion. If you cannot hear the value in owning a more expensive component, you would be quite foolish to purchase it.
I like the ST70 and MK4 Dyna monos a lot and have had and modded both. I also modded the Cary Rocket 88r and it really is very special. When I say mod I am referring to better parts quality and replacing suspect parts due to age.
The Cary can be had for $1000 -$1200 used and is a superb value. The Dynaco amps were a lot of fun for sure. I liked the MK 4 monos a little more than the ST70, but both were nice.
Hi grannyring, I am using mine in my second system unmodified. I was going to have it modified, but read online a number of people who say the mods change the sound, but that whether it is for the better is subjective.
My go-to audio electrician tipped the scale towards not modding.
I am sure that the Cary sounds better, there always will be something.
Depends om your system too. I can hear the difference between cables . "But" does not justify the price !! My research has taught me that basic cables from , Purist , Kimber, wireworld . Work fine . Yes the 10,000 buck Nordest ribbin speaker cable sound very nice indeed .Looks pretty to . Who has that type of money today. My Christmas is donated 200 bucks to the Church for there soup kitchen . Not making China rich . I have old pair of JBL 4311 speakers 40 bucks at a garage sale , nad cd player . about to buy a tube amp any suggestions 1 and 3 grand ?
There is definitely differences between different cables and even between different lengths of the same cable. That does not however necessarily mean that the more expensive cable always sound better in a given system when compared to a cheaper one. It does not need to be "the shorter the better" either as the stability of the amp is dependent on the impedance of the load. In the worst case scenario using inappropriate cables can even turn your amp into a powerful high frequency oscillator blowing it and/or your speakers to smithereens. In particular the Rotel RB-890 is prone to spontaneously self destruct in this way but almost any amp can be turned into an oscillator by connecting an unsuitable load.
I have done a lot of installations and have found that any good 2.5mm2 (AWG13) OFC speaker cable with (preferably) PE insulation works well for general purposes up to at least 30m (100'). It's a good compromise between performance and price. Thinner cables restrict the bass and thicker is not so much better that it justifies the higher cost.
For serious HiFi where one has spent $10K+ on amp and speakers one should of course consider spending a little bit more on cables but always on a try-before-you-buy basis. Just because one cable is more costly to manufacture than another it does not automatically make your system sound better.
It can, in fact, even make it sound terrible! One must always try cables out and then (only if they sound better, of course) ask oneself this question: Is this improvement worth the higher price? If the new cables you are testing are cheaper it's an easy decision: Keep them and sell your old overpriced cables to some sucker…
Don't EVER take it for granted that a higher price is equal to better quality! The HiFi-industry is littered with overpriced products and some of them are just crap. I don't want to mention any brands but I have compared expensive IC-cables to cheap ones and found the cheaper to be better as well as a CD-player costing $6K sounding truly awful when compared to one costing only $2K so beware that there are people out there trying to rip you off. That's the way it is and you have to use your ears and common sense to decide who is gonna get your hard-earned money.
Dizzy Gillespie once said: "If it sounds good it is good..." His concern was the music, not the equipment used to record it! He was of course right! What the musicians are playing is far more important than "the sound" of different cables, amps etc… A sobering thought! :-)
Once I was at my dealer and we made tests with some interconnects and speaker cables of the same company we started with their cheapest one and ended with the most expensive one and the results of this test was very clear the expensive ones were much better ,the difference between the most cheap cable to the most expensive one was like a day and night.
IMO it’s wrong to jump to a conclusion that there is no difference between cables just because a dumb dealer that clearly doesn’t have a clue what he is selling and just want to make $$$ .
Good analogy paieta. I can see both sides, but there IS both sides. To say that cables do not matter is to say that one is satisfied with compromises. Nothing at all wrong with that as long as it is acknowledged and understood.
I love listening to 60’s/70’s/80’s rock on my vintage system with Monster 12 gauge speaker wire and a Pioneer 10-band EQ. It sounds awesome. But when it comes to reproducing music with the intent of creating realism, I hold no pretenses as to its limitations.
To: OPPO BDP-105 MIT XLR interconnect ($500 model) Proceed Amp2 150W 14AWG cheapo speaker wire NHT VT1.4 speakers
What stayed the same: the room: 18’W x 24’L x 12’H, with the speakers on the 18’ wall. A nice room for two-channel audio.
When I was building the high-end system, I definitely noticed a significant improvement between the Shunyata interconnects and a few others that I tried at the time. So in that sense, I can say that cables matter. However, in my new, much cheaper system, I’m amazed at what the Proceed/NHT combo can do for under $1000 (used). I’m perfectly happy with the cheapo speaker wires and have no plan to upgrade.
This is covered well at <roger-russell.com>. Short version : expensive speaker wires are just good marketing. Most copper wire is pure. Bigger wire s better due to line loss. Keep connections tight. I use low voltage landscaping wire from Lowes...lots of copper and good insulation . I have been at this since 1967 and do own stereos that costs as much as a nice new car. I maybe wrong but have no excuses.
Leads from phono cartridge are a different story. I just use stock in SME and VPI. work fine. So does wire in old Dual 1019 come to think of it.
They are all different! I just got a pair of well reviewed budget cable , pro audio type, to compare with the ones I had been using I have just remembered that they were Mogami. I did hear a big difference even though I hoped I would not ! Siltech [?] on eBay was what I had been using. I have been a dealer for the things I like. I don't like them because I sold them. All in the past anyway. I would go with good but not stupid price. I have found that silver does sound different. I like solid silver for my jumper wire , Cardas for speaker wire and VDH First for interconnects. It is spark plug wire or something. But who am I to tell you what to use as the Pope would say if he were here? Trust your ears. I know some people who can tell no difference between things that are obvious to me. One keeps telling me that there IS no difference. I am sure I could tell the difference if someone wanted to set up a test but I can't do it by myself. Just enjoy and don't get OCD on yourself. If you can't tell then you have saved money. I have very good gear. A friend with VERY expensive gear just listened to my two amps. One is a CJ350 and the other is a Gamut 200. This was on Gamut L5s. I thought that they sounded quite different but both good and he thought that the CJ was clearly better. If I still had my health I would be changing them in and out but I can't lift them any more. Fun to play with but listing is better. Just relax and let the music carry you away. Thus endith the rant!
"Just remember my previous post…data errors don’t happen in 1-meter, jitter is a non issue because of reclocking, and noise doesn’t impact the successful retrieval of a data stream…that’s the whole advantage of digital!"
I am not an expert on digital signal transmission, as I avoid it by using a one-box solution, but, either way, it has little to do with analog signal transmission, particularly with long runs of speaker wire, subject to time smearing of the audio signal as well as rejection of RF/EMI artifacts.
Cables seem very much in the realm of a religious discussion. Dr. Aix (Mark Waldrep) on realhd.com has had some interesting posts about cables from a recording engineer point of view....I tend to agree with him.
Best I understand it, they use resistor/capacitor networks to tune the electrical characteristics of the cable to optimize the signal (as they see best) based on the type of component (SS vs tube) and the length of cable (resistance/capacitance/inductance), much like Transparent Audio, but with different sonic goals.
I would advise that you resist the urge to "dissect one". They are expensive and little would be learned by doing so, unless you are technically savvy and don’t care about resale value.
I recently bought some audio art speaker cable and was stunned by the differrnce. And more than reasonable price wise Plus free Shipping. Give them a try YOU WILL HEAR THE DIFFERENCE. I did not believe till I tried these. Should be able to find on audiogon. You will thank me.
If you have high end/audiophiles equipments like amps, preamp, speakers, etc, then if you need to buy expensive cables to make your system to sound good or better, then you don't really have highness/audiophiles equipments to begin with. Does this make sense?
So 12 gauge is enough, regardless of current flow, even with a 6000 w/ch@1 ohm, 158 amperes peak current amplifier? Good to know. Digging out that Radio Shack 12 gauge as I write.
I guess all that nonsense about the time-smearing effects of cheap dielectric, the noise-floor lowering benefits of proper construction geometry and superior shielding technology are all figments of the elite’s imagination? Wonder how they ever afforded that stuff, being so gullible and all?
Cables will make a difference...but, depending. Not by reason of the higher price, by default. It all depends on how precise and well set up your system is. How much transparency potential it has to begin with. And, it involves a lot more than just cables.... If you can not hear a difference? Stop right there and keep the cheaper ones. If you learn along the way the various ways to improve your system’s accuracy and transparency? Then different cables will make a difference. They will. I found that the most expensive cables might not sound the most accurate realistic. They will sound different though.... and, some will like the "effect" they cause.
You know it's, what all intelligent people should know, that the only time cable becomes an issue is when you have a very high end & quality amp, to use cable less than 12 awg will constrain the current flow to your speakers, thereby causing a less than full reproduction of the audio frequency spectrum. As far as the 5k cable performing better than stranded 12 awg, good luck! But if you need bragging rights and money to burn, then this item is for you...
Me. I wouldn't trade my Actinote Arias for anything. I've tried 14 guage following an Absolute Sound comment and it was just OK. The better cables give inkier backgrounds and firmer, more dynamic presentation. And if you're really lucking, greater sense of scale, vividness, and 3-D imaging.
It is a pity one can't hear difference. And it is a pity one stops at "price tag" paradigm.
1) cabling is mix & match game. Not price tag game. No effort spent no gain. 2) given my loudspeakers is full range single driver high efficiency, my 3M pair DIY silver OCC speaker cable cost me $150. BUT a pair of boutique brand interconnect costs me $1700.
sautan904, What you did was essentially a scientific experiment. I applaud you for your action, determination, and tact. I'm sure many people here have spent $$$ on expensive cable and will express an opinion that will justify thier expense. Let me assure you that what matters is RESULTS. Measurable results. If a $5,000 cable doesn't produce 100x better results than a $50 cable, can you really justify its 100x price? The sad fact is that in this blind test and probably any other blind test, no destinguishable difference was observable to a series of well trained ears. We audiophiles must begin to demand measurable results to justify these extreme prices for simple fabrications of polymers and copper. We must stop using emotional bias to make purchases and demand measurable results. I am thankful that you made this experiment and shared your results with us. Please continue your quest for the truth in the audiophile world.
When comparing cheap vs expensive cable you cannot change the physical characteristics of the conductor. The gauge and length and number of separated conductors must remain the same (single vs bi-wire). Monoprice has Nimbus or Access series 12 awg bi-wire awesome cables
I suppose that's surprising to some. I stopped reading Absolute Sound and Stereophile many years ago when it became obvious that they were in the business of selling product with no basis in reality such as cables and interconnects at unreal prices. That was many years ago and prices have gone way up since then. There will be many that rail against you in this forum. I haven't read the postings yet but this is a snooty HiFi website. Imagination is a big part of the Audio game. It always has been. No, you're not the last person to find out that expensive cable is a rip. Look at the people in the postings defending it...
Inductance and capacitance are frequency dependent at frequencies in the audible spectrum. Cables are designed to filter (tune) frequencies to taste accordingly. This is not "news" or in question. It is science. Those who do not hear this either do not have the requisite system or hearing to detect the differences. Whether the economics of such tuning are of merit is entirely an individual analysis of which I have little interest.
Your results are absolutely correct. Please don’t buy the $5K cables. If you absolutely must buy those and the money is burning a hole in your pocket, I will gladly accept the cash and send you 12AWG bi-wire cables and donate the rest of the money to the best rated charity :) Your blind test joins the arsenal of other tests performed by many scientific audiophiles and they all show the same results. Only thing that matters is the gauge for analog signals. Its low voltage DC current running through. The fatter the cable easier the flow. Many other members must have said it all. I haven't read the entire thread yet.
I had a chance to demo some very high end "FLAT" speaker cable from my audiophile dealer... I could hear a difference... no line drop! Then I went to Home Depot and purchased 10-2 strained copper power cable. (10 AWG) and made a direct A/B comparison. IDENTICAL sound quality! Try it your self... only $2.08 per foot! It's all I use for my high end speakers!
Setting fire to your money would make more sense than buying $5000 speaker cables. At least then it'll keep you warm for a few minutes. Any cables with a good quality core and well-bonded insulation will do the job just the same.
There was an article a few years ago in (IIRC) Stereophile or some audiophile rag that tested several high end speaker cables. They also tried a few "underground" solutions including a pair of 10ga (or was it 8ga) stranded copper THHN cable (petrol-resistant hard insulator) conductors twisted around each other. The underground solution equaled or bettered the performance of the other speaker cables in the test. I tried that and it was VERY good. But not as good as the 12ga stranded copper cable I was (and am still) using.
It's clear that some cables sound better than other on a specific speaker - amp combination. That same cable may not work well with other combinations. It also seems that very short cable runs work best and provide the least signal filtration / distortion.
There is something going on beyond just conducting a signal.
@glory - Perhaps the BS was before I became their fan, the Apex being my first encounter with SR. If you're referring to their passive and active field resonators/room treatments: isn't all that enlightening? Ever do any studies in Quantum Theory/Mechanics?
SR did use a lot of Marketing BS in the past but what I found from one of their resent products made me reevaluate the path to better SQ and it's not wire!! Mind you one still needs good/great wire but the path has been paved by SR :) $$$ to better SQ.
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