Who says cables don't make a difference?
No one should be made to fell like a fool for what they hear, all these things destroy open conversations and the ability to learn anything.I must admit that this elementary trust is fundamental in an audio thread.... Or tomorrow we will ask measuring Artificial intelligence advice over or against our own ears.... Measuring thing is a must indeed, but no more when we reduce all sound quality to that only.... «Behind the ears it is the heart that listen» - Anonymus |
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Oh give me a break speedbump6, the whole point of this thread and similar ones, READ THE TITLE, is to instigate division. It is only in threads like this, from both sides of the fence that arguments get heated. Get over yourself. You are no saint, you are just as condescending if not more than the people you claim are. This thread is not to discuss the wonders of cables, it is to proclaim them, and try to stifle any discussion. |
Wow, you folks are really working overtime here so you probably need a break. This seems like a perfect time to revisit my question about: What do people who don’t worry about cables have in common with the people of Finland?Answer: They are (both) the happiest people in the world! https://worldhappiness.report/news/its-a-three-peat-finland-keeps-top-spot-as-happiest-country-in-world/ |
One more take for the rather even big difference cables can make - though there're no guaranties here AT ALL! Its like a crap-shoot very often (most often?) really. The off-shoot of a more lucky strike I had just a few days back - now some of my upstream cables I disliked as too bright /slightly harsh/digital... now sound really clearer and more transparent than some others considered 'warmer' / 'more musical'.... So, no question, at least in this here household, - cables do make a difference -. Seriously, Michélle 🇿🇦 |
Gives me any cable i will make it sound like a marvel in a few minutes, without measuring it at all, except with my ears , and using something that will vary in relation to the specific sound of your system.... I will not mention what is this varying materials, i dont want to schock the dogmas....And nobody has ever explain to me why this materials works that way in an audio system... It is only by experiments and listenings that i work my way with it.... I mention this because common sense is lacking about cables.... Common sense takes into the equation 2 things: the numbers of testimonies about cables differences, and the actual inability for our technology to measure and explain any differences, very subtle sometimes, in cables by our measuring limited apparatus for now.... Arguing with "science" is ridiculous, technology is not science first, technology often create something before being able to explain it, happily for us; second, technology has no way to measure in a single way all the parameters involved in cables embeddings in an audio system, because "probably" there is more than the tech-brain think about this ears-audio phenomena....Technology works with experiments not dogmas.... Blind testing is not the "apex" of technological progress, but a debunkers technology and a marketters one also like statistics in a way....Pharma companies likes statistics very much over experiments by human doctor in the field guess why? If you know about statistics you know why....A clue: the bigger the numbers, the more you can play with them easily.... This is what my "ignoramus" common sense and experience dictates to me reading all these useless threads arguing cables makes no differences at all by principle or by "measure" aka blind test.... :) |
Hey Mitch2 ——‘ people who don’t worry about cables are the happiest people in the world” —- quoting you. Are you sure? Then why are you guys in every single cable thread you can find in the Internets? This is how you happy people spend your time? So wasting your time in topics you “don’t worry” about is part of your happiness? Not sure if this kind of thing is happiness much. More like miserable |
I expect the Irony of both the name of this thread and his post will be lost on thyname :-) Mahgister, that is a lot of conspiracy theory and ideas presented as facts without evidence for one post. thyname742 posts07-11-2020 8:44amHey Mitch2 ——‘ people who don’t worry about cables are the happiest people in the world” —- quoting you. |
Mahgister, that is a lot of conspiracy theory and ideas presented as facts without evidence for one post.Sorry i dont get the conspiracy theory accusation....Do you live in Disney world, being a scientific and not knowing how international company use statistic in medical research, i guess you are an engineer? If you want i give to you the basic litterature about statistic use in medical field ? I am not a scientist myself but i know how to read ...It is a very actual problem in this pandemic by the way.... For the "facts" only your own " labelled" measures are facts no? Other ears experience are illusions.... Testimonies are not facts, anecdotal trivia they are....Human ears must be educated by numbers dials.... is it that? Is it the critical listening you speak about? I apologize for the sarcasm.... P.S. for the statistic one short beginnings: "The ongoing tyranny of statistical significance testing in biomedical research" by Andreas Stang Oliver Kuss The pdf is easy to spot on the web.... If you want explanation i am here :) If you can understand that you will know how to use statistic to inflect any result in the wished direction.... After understanding that we can discuss the difference between field observational medical research and the difference with methodological statistic research with the goal to sell you some "drug" .... But this will necessitate other articles and education.... Where is the conspiracy theory? Dont call something you dont understand with name you dont understand either.... |
Haha Robert, sounds like I’m doing pretty well at it then, you seem to be “ stiffled” by my posts. Actually I think it’s pretty sad that anyone feels the need to proclaim and stiffle any thoughts that don’t agree. But your response I guess is what one should expect when they try to approach a subject with reason and logic when others intentions are anything but that. But hey, carry on with your “ stifling” and enjoy if that’s what you do for entertainment. |
mahlman...After the way you played people on the "Should people who can't solder..." thread, for your own amusement, there is no way of knowing when you are being serious. That means you lack credibility. You should apologize for what you did. Some people, such as millercarbon, who were taken in by your game, actually defended you. That must have been hilarious. Oh, I forgot, you even mentioned that your wife was wondering what you were laughing about. |
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Well, I don't know where to begin: "Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". " I'm an engineer, and I'm one of them. Most of the differences people hear, are capacitance and inductance (neither of which are desirable in an audio interconnect). "There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference." I am one of them. Not to say there is *NO* difference between cables, but for most people, those differences are slight enough to be negligible in the grand scheme of things, compared to the differences between $1000 speakers and $3000 speakers, or between a $1200 power amplifier, and a $2000 power amplifier. I mean, the circuit even in components that cost thousands of dollars, contains average quality wire and traces at best. A good designer will take steps to lower EMI. I once heard a salesman ask a customer if he had changed the power cord for his power amplifier: I had never gone back. I had once rewired the RCA to board connections in a Quad 606 power amplifier with my stock bulk interconnect, DH Labs Silver Sonic BL1, Series II (a balanced one that has a shield that I never use because I know it's unnecessary except in that specific case). The buzz it always had, had been lessened by moving that Silver Sonic away from the transformer, and little else. I had grounded the shield, but it had done little. I don't think changing my interconnects, would have accomplished very much in that case. I would be happy however to switch the short DH Labs cable that I use with my headphone rig, and the $15 cable that I had got off of Ebay, all day long, for a visitor, seeing if they can tell them apart in a blind, or other listening test. "I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables." I had a look at their Indra V10 marketing spiel, and there's so much junk science in there, that they should probably get sued. You want me to pay $7000 for a three foot interconnect? " The internal part of the Indra V10 connector is made of solid silver " I would probably be able to get the whole cable made out of solid silver, for less money, somewhere else. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using." Because you say so, doesn't cut it. "I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I." Because for most people they're a waste of money? My idea of a good cable is this: 1. A short one. 2. One that doesn't introduce capacitance. 3. One that doesn't introduce inductance. 4. One that doesn't pick up EMI. 5. One that has a shield that's grounded to lessen EMI, in the rare event that the amount of EMI present is objectionable and audible. 5. One that doesn't oxidize. |
Dan, for those that don’t hear a difference, or not enough to justify it, I agree, there is no sense in spending for them. But there are those who do, and the difference they hear is not insignificant. Assuming their budget allows it, then I agree it makes sense for them. Don’t see a reason why anyone should have a problem with either side of that. I spend on cables because I most definitely hear a worthwhile difference. But I understand why it makes no sense to also. Someone like warren buffet would never spend on a super car, just makes no sense to him, brings nothing to him that he feels gives value, even though he can afford anything he wants. I have no issue with that, and if I had his money, I’d probably have a jay Leno kind of garage, because. I feel it would bring some value to me. No reason why we can’t both be happy about our choices. |
Dan2956 and speedbump6, Interesting 2 sides of the discussion both quite elaborate. I don’t feel the need to apologize for my bias toward expensive cables with a personal preference for Stealth Audio. As with ANY component, the goal is to DO NO HARM to the signal. Great cables do the least harm. THE STRAIGHT WIRE WITH GAIN. The gain part of the equation in this case being the ability or lack thereof of passing signal. Simply put... |
You mean convinced themselves there is a huge difference. Many an audiophile friend has claimed that to me, only for me to break their bubble by showing them that absent knowing what is connected, they couldn't tell the difference. Not always. Had to debug a bad connection once, and one boutique cable had some awful electrical characteristics. I have seen/heard many poorly matched phono cables too. Experienced bad shielding as well, and inadequate power cable grounds leading to ground noise pumping. Seen some questionable engineering on components too. |
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Those expensive cables wont work if you don't get the beeswax impregnated fuses and blackout paint for everything. You need the $6,000 outlet box and $12,000 power cord too. It's the synergy of the grandiose and unprovable claims that combine into a cohesive never heard before quality of sound only to be surpassed when the next set of hucksters show up with new and improved. The benefit of audio oil over snake oil is that once the snake oil has been consumed you have an empty bottle. Once the Audio Oil has been placed in operation it can last for many years of satisfied babbling to others over sound improvements so arcane you have to convince them they are real. If you can. |
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And maybe one day in the future some audiophiles will realize the difference between good sound, and sound that is exactly the same but costs a whole lot more and stop trying to convince other audiophiles to make the same mistake. These same audiophiles already reject all sort of measurement but are quite happy to believe made up marketing material. I am sure if measurements improve they will reject those too. And it is all quite silly as no one is saying that measurements indicate how an individual will perceive sound quality at least on this topic. What they are saying is that the reported changes from a cable change don’t match reality at least in a significant number of cases of what changing a cable could possibly do. |
It seems the crux of the cable issue stems from the comparisons of the likes of zip lamp chord and high fidelity cable. If zip chord works why spend a lot of money on “snake oil”?!And why not just get some silver wire and RCAs and build your own ICs for $20?A friend asked me about speaker wire for his old receiver/cheap speaker workshop system. I told him to use zip chord. That if he had a system that cost thousands I would recommend expensive cables. That it would not make much difference in his system and he would hear things fine. We obsessive audiophiles want to get the most out of our systems. Good cables do not make a system sound better, per se. They allow one to hear the most out of components. I have spent thousands on my components carefully compiled over many years and want to reap the most out of my investments. For me, by far, the bottom line is what I subjectively hear not measurements. That is, by far, the great fun of this great hobby! |
Is that the real problem boxer12? ... that you only have some hobby level experience, but I have educational, research and practical experience in electronics, signal processing and acoustics? ... does it make you feel inadequate? ... it must, because you spend an awful lot of effort to attack me, but fail miserably at attacking my information and ideas. That's probably why your posts are just hand waving at best, and mine contain clear, concise concepts. I am sorry if I make you feel inadequate, but alas, we can't all have the same skill set. Have you thought about a hobby that does not make you feel inadequate? |
Show me! bring it on what you have. I have only seen negative posts from you, i.e. don’t do this, don’t do that, this is snake oil, etc. etc. I have never seen anything constructive, helping people with the stuff that you proclaim to be a specialist. Under this handle and under your previous atdavid handle, and God knows what other handles. Can you have a bit more positivity, focus on what you know, rather than simply bashing stuff you have zero interest on? Why be a Debbie Downer? |
"Is that the real problem boxer12? ... that you only have some hobby level experience, but I have educational, research and practical experience in electronics, signal processing and acoustics? ... does it make you feel inadequate?" Nope. I'm enjoying this hobby Question: Do you really think people feel inadequate around you? The reason I'm asking is you've stated that a couple times now & it couldn't be farther from the truth. You seem to have disdain for audiophiles which is unusual since that's what this forum caters too. |
Some has disdain for solutions that dont come from them or dont have a place in their frame of mind.... :) Not me, i guess i was an audiophile, because the most important was for me to win a good hi-fi by my own means only ( i dont have the luxury of money). And i am not an engineer.... But in audio, the engineering basic design is already mature for the last 50 years, and except some new technology, the basic design is mature, then almost all product are on a quality/price ladder with 3 rungs : low, mid, high....Even dac technology begins to be good in the last decade and affordable... Then for an audiophile, the S. Q. comes mostly from many other things than only electronical basic information or design... Pick some good E.C. (electronic component) on this ladder and the S. Q. increase will not come from basic electronical information mainly , but from the way you will embeds this audio system in your house and room.... Within 2 years of experiments each week mainly, i create my homemade low cost solutions to these 3 embeddings problem that would seem ridiculous or worst appalling in some case for a classical audio engineer... They works marvel for peanuts....My ears said so indeed.... No measuring electronic device would have made that possible...No way.... Controls of resonance, of the house electrical grid and last but not least of the acoustic with not only with passive materials but mostly active different ways can create a S. Q. "out of this world" without any unecessary upgrade... My principal audio discovery after my own experience, is most people dont even know what the audio system they already own is able optimally to deliver....No electronic measuring device would replace the methods i had use to controls this 3 embeddings...For sure no change of cables too.... :) For the cables problem, yes there is difference, no they are not generally big differences, and thirdly most people listen to cables in a non controlled environment then how can they be sure that their cables is the best?... And last, most cables afficionados put their money at the wrong place, and for that i think like roberttdid and i have the same opinion .... But his measuring proof is for me unecessary and his blind testing obsession let me cold like ice.... My ears speak louder to me about cables differences so to speak.... :) I trained my ears to transform my own system without needing any engineer, with good basic electronic component....I succeed for the cost of almost peanuts.... I dont sell nothing, my idea are free and i dont upgrade.... Regards to all.... |
