If you want to hear your system sound better, a martini and a joint will do the trick! Changing an IC - no!
Who says cables don't make a difference?
Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables".
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
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Those expensive cables wont work if you don't get the beeswax impregnated fuses and blackout paint for everything. You need the $6,000 outlet box and $12,000 power cord too. It's the synergy of the grandiose and unprovable claims that combine into a cohesive never heard before quality of sound only to be surpassed when the next set of hucksters show up with new and improved. The benefit of audio oil over snake oil is that once the snake oil has been consumed you have an empty bottle. Once the Audio Oil has been placed in operation it can last for many years of satisfied babbling to others over sound improvements so arcane you have to convince them they are real. If you can. |
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You mean convinced themselves there is a huge difference. Many an audiophile friend has claimed that to me, only for me to break their bubble by showing them that absent knowing what is connected, they couldn't tell the difference. Not always. Had to debug a bad connection once, and one boutique cable had some awful electrical characteristics. I have seen/heard many poorly matched phono cables too. Experienced bad shielding as well, and inadequate power cable grounds leading to ground noise pumping. Seen some questionable engineering on components too. |
Dan2956 and speedbump6, Interesting 2 sides of the discussion both quite elaborate. I don’t feel the need to apologize for my bias toward expensive cables with a personal preference for Stealth Audio. As with ANY component, the goal is to DO NO HARM to the signal. Great cables do the least harm. THE STRAIGHT WIRE WITH GAIN. The gain part of the equation in this case being the ability or lack thereof of passing signal. Simply put... |
Dan, for those that don’t hear a difference, or not enough to justify it, I agree, there is no sense in spending for them. But there are those who do, and the difference they hear is not insignificant. Assuming their budget allows it, then I agree it makes sense for them. Don’t see a reason why anyone should have a problem with either side of that. I spend on cables because I most definitely hear a worthwhile difference. But I understand why it makes no sense to also. Someone like warren buffet would never spend on a super car, just makes no sense to him, brings nothing to him that he feels gives value, even though he can afford anything he wants. I have no issue with that, and if I had his money, I’d probably have a jay Leno kind of garage, because. I feel it would bring some value to me. No reason why we can’t both be happy about our choices. |
Well, I don't know where to begin: "Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". " I'm an engineer, and I'm one of them. Most of the differences people hear, are capacitance and inductance (neither of which are desirable in an audio interconnect). "There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference." I am one of them. Not to say there is *NO* difference between cables, but for most people, those differences are slight enough to be negligible in the grand scheme of things, compared to the differences between $1000 speakers and $3000 speakers, or between a $1200 power amplifier, and a $2000 power amplifier. I mean, the circuit even in components that cost thousands of dollars, contains average quality wire and traces at best. A good designer will take steps to lower EMI. I once heard a salesman ask a customer if he had changed the power cord for his power amplifier: I had never gone back. I had once rewired the RCA to board connections in a Quad 606 power amplifier with my stock bulk interconnect, DH Labs Silver Sonic BL1, Series II (a balanced one that has a shield that I never use because I know it's unnecessary except in that specific case). The buzz it always had, had been lessened by moving that Silver Sonic away from the transformer, and little else. I had grounded the shield, but it had done little. I don't think changing my interconnects, would have accomplished very much in that case. I would be happy however to switch the short DH Labs cable that I use with my headphone rig, and the $15 cable that I had got off of Ebay, all day long, for a visitor, seeing if they can tell them apart in a blind, or other listening test. "I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables." I had a look at their Indra V10 marketing spiel, and there's so much junk science in there, that they should probably get sued. You want me to pay $7000 for a three foot interconnect? " The internal part of the Indra V10 connector is made of solid silver " I would probably be able to get the whole cable made out of solid silver, for less money, somewhere else. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using." Because you say so, doesn't cut it. "I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I." Because for most people they're a waste of money? My idea of a good cable is this: 1. A short one. 2. One that doesn't introduce capacitance. 3. One that doesn't introduce inductance. 4. One that doesn't pick up EMI. 5. One that has a shield that's grounded to lessen EMI, in the rare event that the amount of EMI present is objectionable and audible. 5. One that doesn't oxidize. |
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mahlman...After the way you played people on the "Should people who can't solder..." thread, for your own amusement, there is no way of knowing when you are being serious. That means you lack credibility. You should apologize for what you did. Some people, such as millercarbon, who were taken in by your game, actually defended you. That must have been hilarious. Oh, I forgot, you even mentioned that your wife was wondering what you were laughing about. |
Haha Robert, sounds like I’m doing pretty well at it then, you seem to be “ stiffled” by my posts. Actually I think it’s pretty sad that anyone feels the need to proclaim and stiffle any thoughts that don’t agree. But your response I guess is what one should expect when they try to approach a subject with reason and logic when others intentions are anything but that. But hey, carry on with your “ stifling” and enjoy if that’s what you do for entertainment. |
Mahgister, that is a lot of conspiracy theory and ideas presented as facts without evidence for one post.Sorry i dont get the conspiracy theory accusation....Do you live in Disney world, being a scientific and not knowing how international company use statistic in medical research, i guess you are an engineer? If you want i give to you the basic litterature about statistic use in medical field ? I am not a scientist myself but i know how to read ...It is a very actual problem in this pandemic by the way.... For the "facts" only your own " labelled" measures are facts no? Other ears experience are illusions.... Testimonies are not facts, anecdotal trivia they are....Human ears must be educated by numbers dials.... is it that? Is it the critical listening you speak about? I apologize for the sarcasm.... P.S. for the statistic one short beginnings: "The ongoing tyranny of statistical significance testing in biomedical research" by Andreas Stang Oliver Kuss The pdf is easy to spot on the web.... If you want explanation i am here :) If you can understand that you will know how to use statistic to inflect any result in the wished direction.... After understanding that we can discuss the difference between field observational medical research and the difference with methodological statistic research with the goal to sell you some "drug" .... But this will necessitate other articles and education.... Where is the conspiracy theory? Dont call something you dont understand with name you dont understand either.... |
I expect the Irony of both the name of this thread and his post will be lost on thyname :-) Mahgister, that is a lot of conspiracy theory and ideas presented as facts without evidence for one post. thyname742 posts07-11-2020 8:44amHey Mitch2 ——‘ people who don’t worry about cables are the happiest people in the world” —- quoting you. |
Hey Mitch2 ——‘ people who don’t worry about cables are the happiest people in the world” —- quoting you. Are you sure? Then why are you guys in every single cable thread you can find in the Internets? This is how you happy people spend your time? So wasting your time in topics you “don’t worry” about is part of your happiness? Not sure if this kind of thing is happiness much. More like miserable |
Gives me any cable i will make it sound like a marvel in a few minutes, without measuring it at all, except with my ears , and using something that will vary in relation to the specific sound of your system.... I will not mention what is this varying materials, i dont want to schock the dogmas....And nobody has ever explain to me why this materials works that way in an audio system... It is only by experiments and listenings that i work my way with it.... I mention this because common sense is lacking about cables.... Common sense takes into the equation 2 things: the numbers of testimonies about cables differences, and the actual inability for our technology to measure and explain any differences, very subtle sometimes, in cables by our measuring limited apparatus for now.... Arguing with "science" is ridiculous, technology is not science first, technology often create something before being able to explain it, happily for us; second, technology has no way to measure in a single way all the parameters involved in cables embeddings in an audio system, because "probably" there is more than the tech-brain think about this ears-audio phenomena....Technology works with experiments not dogmas.... Blind testing is not the "apex" of technological progress, but a debunkers technology and a marketters one also like statistics in a way....Pharma companies likes statistics very much over experiments by human doctor in the field guess why? If you know about statistics you know why....A clue: the bigger the numbers, the more you can play with them easily.... This is what my "ignoramus" common sense and experience dictates to me reading all these useless threads arguing cables makes no differences at all by principle or by "measure" aka blind test.... :) |
One more take for the rather even big difference cables can make - though there're no guaranties here AT ALL! Its like a crap-shoot very often (most often?) really. The off-shoot of a more lucky strike I had just a few days back - now some of my upstream cables I disliked as too bright /slightly harsh/digital... now sound really clearer and more transparent than some others considered 'warmer' / 'more musical'.... So, no question, at least in this here household, - cables do make a difference -. Seriously, Michélle 🇿🇦 |
Wow, you folks are really working overtime here so you probably need a break. This seems like a perfect time to revisit my question about: What do people who don’t worry about cables have in common with the people of Finland?Answer: They are (both) the happiest people in the world! https://worldhappiness.report/news/its-a-three-peat-finland-keeps-top-spot-as-happiest-country-in-world/ |
Oh give me a break speedbump6, the whole point of this thread and similar ones, READ THE TITLE, is to instigate division. It is only in threads like this, from both sides of the fence that arguments get heated. Get over yourself. You are no saint, you are just as condescending if not more than the people you claim are. This thread is not to discuss the wonders of cables, it is to proclaim them, and try to stifle any discussion. |
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No one should be made to fell like a fool for what they hear, all these things destroy open conversations and the ability to learn anything.I must admit that this elementary trust is fundamental in an audio thread.... Or tomorrow we will ask measuring Artificial intelligence advice over or against our own ears.... Measuring thing is a must indeed, but no more when we reduce all sound quality to that only.... «Behind the ears it is the heart that listen» - Anonymus |
Robert, what compelling evidence? We are talking about what we hear or do t hear, most of us are not engineers. I’m not asking for proof that someone does t hear something, nor do I believe proof needs to be shown that they do. Why can’t we take each other at their word about what we hear, either way. Why does offense have to be given or taken over the subject. Those who can hear, would like to have a discussion about that, why can’t they without the negativity. If someone I’d asking questions about their McIntosh amp and someone else shows up and starts trashing McIntosh as trash and inferior, is that right? The forum is here to try to learn something, hopefully. Open discussion. Tolerance of other people’s points of view. Neither side of the discussion should be pointing fingers, calling names or demeaning the other. No one should be made to fell like a fool for what they hear, all these things destroy open conversations and the ability to learn anything. |
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I will add that people too much obsessed in a positive way or in a negative way about cables dont understand the basic problem in audio sound experience.... :) Sorry to offend some, but newbies to the hobby must read the truth..... Advice for newby to the hobby: choose good, not too pricey, cables, and forget them for the years to comes, revisit them after the controls of the audio system 3 embeddings will be optimally implemented then upgrade the cables if you want to and never before .... :) «My only master are my ears» - RCA Victor company’s dog « My wife screams so loud that my oscilloscope knows better than me what she say»-Groucho Marx « A flea whispers is so subtle but contains the world mysteries, alas! only my most sensible DB meter can catch it a bit» -Groucho Marx reading William Blake |
The funny thing is, certain people who believe cables are junk, ripoff, snake oil, like our senile friend Dow Jones here, or like AtDavid posting under his many fake accounts (this time “Robert” 😂😂) go in every single cable thread they can find. They search for them! Question is why? If something does not interest you, why bother? Serious question. |
Thyname, I know I’m not changing anyone’s mind, when they’ve already made up their mind, that last post he said it all. He wants to see a change in the cable that he can measure, or apparently he won’t believe his own ears without that. It’s like they believe if they hear it, it’s a magic act, and there’s an explanation why it’s not real. There are many things we can’t measure out there, or modify our definition of because we found out our past ways to measure sow thing wasn’t correct in some way. It’s a good thing that most scientists or creators of new products and ideas don’t get stuck in that loop, or we’d never advance beyond where we are now. Man can’t fly, until he could. Still people who think the moonwalk was faked. If that’s what they want to believe, so be it. I can certainly see the idea that for what cables can cost, it’s insane to many. And I’m sure the level of profit is extremely high the more expensive they get. Only you can determine if what you hear is worth what the cost is, but it for sure is no one else’s business if you decide it is. As it’s no one else’s business to tell you you’re wrong for not spending on cables. Your budget, and more so the value they represent to you can only be answered by you. Why are these concepts so hard to understand. |
It can be the cables and it can be, if subtle differences are there to be distinguished at all, relative human biases....I cannot myself imagine that cables all sound like one another based on my experiences.... But most peoples invest too much money in cables.... Night and day differences comes from controls over the 3 embeddings of an audio system, not from cables in my experience, except by replacing a very bad one with a very good one, but this is exception not rule... I dont understand all these childlike games here about cables....Common sense suffice to pose the problem and is sufficient to solve it.... Safe for those who wouched for no cables differences exist at all....And this is silly for those like me who hears differences.... A single difference between cables can be a result of some bias and can be placebo....But cumulative changes in the same positive directions cannot be reduced to illusion nor by blind test neither by measures....Then perhaps some single cable difference with another one can be argued for or against in a singular basis ....But cumulative positive differences is the heart of audio experience listening, that cannot be reduced to illusion only.... For me listening is my only way to test.... I test my own audio homemade tweaks with my ears for 2 years, and recreate completely my own sound experience by controlling the 3 embeddings, not by changing cables, even if they dont sound alike.... :) I dont sell nor buy anything except peanuts costing materials in the last 2 years..... Then Hi-Fi experience cost peanuts if you want to invest your listening learning skills and some basics.... That is my grain of pepper.... |
I've never said people are hallucinating but are not controlling for biases which can affect your perception. Those are not the same things when someone says they hear differences I believe them. They do hear differences the thing I question is why. Is it really the cable or is it their perfectly normal human biases. |
Oh come on be honest speedbump6, some of them are joking, but many are not and are rather biting in their comment. Not to mention how many threads have just been started in the last week or two extolling the virtues of cables and meant to put down / insult those who don’t agree?? YOU, may want to look at the topic of the thread you are posting in and the other one that has took up the bulk of your posts the last several days. If I do come to Houston, it does not matter if I have bias or not. All that matters is that you can detect a cable change ... without seeing the change, and we are not talking comparing 18 awg to proper speaker wire. |
It’s obvious where your bias lies, and yes you have made that clear. I haven’t seen anyone saying hard of hearing other than as a funny response as I posted above to comments about them hallucinating what they hear. As a whole, those who don’t hear differences do indeed spend much more time and effort trying to convince everyone that they’re imagining things, where the opposite is generally not the case. Som you can actually teach someone that they can’t hear what they do hear? That would be an interesting proposition. Come to houston and do the same simple test I did, and if you are able to approach it with a fair and open mind, would like to see if you would still tell me that you don’t hear a difference. I have had actual nasa rocket scientists try to explain the laws of Physics, it’s a wonder we ever got to space as hard headed as some of them can be, lol, |