Hi Raul, echo Dean_man's comments above - how good is it for us that can't do what you do, but the sharing through this thread allows us to tap into or near the top end without burning big $ through accepting current norms.
I work as an engineer in a very specialised area (nothing to do with electronics) and you would be absolutely amazed at what was known 40 yrs ago but forgotten today and being re-learnt the hard way! The MM/MI resurgence is very reminiscent of redisocvering the forgotten.
Thank you for your passion, regardless of who agrees or not.
Cheers, Alex L |
I am a virologist by trade (I.e., I do research on viruses). After 30 years in this field, I see that work done 20 or more years ago (some of it by me) is being repeated by the younger group of scientists, only using more modern technology to prove the same thing we already knew. And such papers are nevertheless accepted for publication in important journals. The new technology makes the old finding itself seem new. This is the human condition, I guess. Ergo it does not surprise me at all that there is such merit in vintage audio gear, everything from cartridges to speakers.
But does this thread really represent a "resurgence" of interest in MM/MI cartridges? Insofar as there is little evidence that important cartridge makers are paying any attention, I thought we were more like a lunatic fringe group. |
Hi Raul,sounds like the AKG 100-LE was an all out attempt to produce the very best,the price(back then)indicates it was not easy to produce such a great cartridge,and only makeing 50 samples.It's a shame all these years later nothing is better at any inflated ridiculous price.I can not understand why todays high-end MC cartridge cost so much,and is the main reason I went back to MM.
Hi Lewn,I think we are a tiny group that enjoys these cartridges.Most still think or "know" MC are always better,heck I see people recommend low end HOMC over TOTL MM cartridges a lot these days. |
Dear Raul, thanks a lot, will start the quest. You know I recently discovered the Moving Iron field with some good results, at least with the Sussuro. I will be in contact with Halcro too, he became MM addicted I guess. Why not! |
Hi Lewm, in the words of a Monty Python skit, "how sweet it is to be an idiot"!!
Cheers,
Alex L |
Hi Jb0194, I have the AT1100, 1120, 1010 and Signet XK50 (the Signet XK 50 is essentially a select AT 1100) arms in my collection; they are similar in one way but different in others. For instance, both the AT 1100 and 1010 arms have their vertical motion pivot axis in line with the stylus tip and 8cm back extension behind the pillar. The 1010 offers a variable counterweight damping facility (a dynamic balance weight called a “gyrobalance”) as opposite to a fluid well damper pot on the 1100. The 1100 comes with a low mass straight arm tube with the higher mass S shape arm tube as optional .The 1120 is a simpler and refined version of the 1100 without the fluid damper, also the vertical pivot plane is located below the stylus tip, giving an increase in trackability. Its straight arm tube has a fixed carbon fiber headshell. The arms are interchangeable in their pillar mounts though differ in details. And lastly, they also differ in effective mass, the AT 1010’s 16 grams is the heaviest, the AT 1100 is 6 grams with straight arm tube and 12.5 grams with S tube, the AT 1120 is only 5 grams. The SME III(5 grams) is also in my tonearm collection but it is a completely different design. In terms of sound quality and user friendliness, I prefer the AT 1100 to the SME. |
Kcc123, a most informative post. Thank you. |
Sorry! The AT 1120 arm does offer a fluid damper pot, though the counterweight is different.The mounting plate is an SME type. |
Dear Thuchan: Good. This one is recommended too:
http://www.pickupnaald.nl/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=4160
as for the Premium ones ( like those five samples that are at the " reviews " place. ) you need to " fish " it through ebay over the time, patience is the name for you can put your hands on any of them: Worth the effort!!!
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm: The P8ES VdH is a nice AKG cartridge but different quality performance level from the P100-LE. This one is " seated " over the top where every other cartridge " salute with a reverence "!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hello Raul, maybe you should considering re manufacturing this cartridge so other people may have a chance to play with greatness!!
Once these cartridges are gone so will be its technology lost forever
Good Listening! |
Im sure this question does not belong here but Im sure that with your experince, you can help me: I just bought a Benz Micro REF cartridge, the first model that they sell ( my cart was bough in '94); problem is that the owner does not have the manual; is possible that someone has it or maybe could provides me with all the techincal information?; as you can imagine, I need it to configure my phono preamp. your input will be apreciated. thanks in advance. |
Thank you for the great info, Kcc123.
A related question is:
How much better sound can one get from ligher weight(4-7g), high compliance MM/MI carts with considerably more expensive arms?
I own:
Pickering XSV 5000 Stanton Epoch II Ortofon VMS30E MKII Micro Acoustics 530MP
all 4-6.5g weight and relatively high compliance.
I see used arms such as Graham 1.5Tc/2.0/2.2 and Triplanars which have an effective mass of 11g that straddle the low mass/medium mass range in tonearms. A used Triplanar VII costs $3000+.
If I'm committed to the-above mentioned cartridges (I am), can considerably more potential be gotten from these carts with arms like the Graham or Triplanar? FWIW, I have a Technics SP-10MKIIA on the way to refurb and use in this setup.
Raul and others have made the point that this discussion thread is also about matching these great carts with synergistic arms/tables. I'm willing to consider a larger tonearm investment if the consensus supports it.
Please share your experiences, pretending that cost is no object - though it is! |
Dear Jorsan: This could help you:
http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=Benz+Micro&t=mc&mod=reference&sort=1&Search=Search&sty=&ovlo=&ovhi=&can=&dclo=&dchi=&stid=&masslo=&masshi=¬=&prlo=&prhi=
Regrads and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lharasim: Maybe I do it. Not the same cartridge but a " new " cartridge that can at least even the AKG quality perfromance and maybe that can beat it.
The importance to hear/heard so many top cartridges is that my quality music/SOUND REFERENCE ALREADY CHANGE FOR THE BETTER AND this new reference be the one that will be take it in count with a cartridge voicing final build design.
Well, this kind of challenges are the one that I like it.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
|
Jbo194, FYI the Trans-Fi Terminator Pro leaves my Graham 1.5tc in the dust, both with medium and high-compliance cartridges. |
I just read up on the Trans-fi arm. A very interesting design! |
Hello Raul,
Looking on your original list here: ------------------------------------------------------ "If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:
Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.
There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III." ---------------------------------------------------------
I'm looking at Grado amongst others( fond of the sound and in house for years ) do you still recommend 100K loading on this cartridge and are you still OK with the sound ?
Models looking at :
1.Grado Statement Platinum1 Wood Body 2.Grado Gold1 Prestige Series Phono Cartridge. 3.Clearaudio Aurum Classic Mk2 4.Denon DL-160 Phono Cartridge ( HO, MC )
Any opinions on the above would be appreciated ..
regards, |
Dear halcro: Thank you. No my spare P100-LE is not on sale, at least for now.
I think that with patience you can find it in Japan Yahoo/ebay or Germany ebay.
I was not found mines on USA ebay but in UK ebay ( I think. ).
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: Surprising that this Stanton top of the line cartridge appear in only one week twice. It is very good opportunity and IMHO better than the LZS low output model:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stanton-981-HZS-/200507414216?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0#ht_704wt_1137
I hope the winner share its experiences with when is ready to.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Weseixas, The Grado cartridges under discussion here have included the TLZ and XTZ and the one called "Amber Tribute", which Raul likes a lot. Another one is the Signature III (or something like that). The TLZ and XTZ are purely vintage devices, whereas there is a company in Australia that at least was selling NOS Amber Tribute cartridges. I have read negative comments on the Gold. The Denon is an MC and so has not been discussed. The Clearaudio like the Gold is a current offering and also has not been discussed here, though I have read elsewhere that it is a good one.
Raul, Have you actually compared the Stanton 981 LZS and HZS head to head? |
Dear lewm: Not today.
Raul. |
Dear Lewn,
Thanks for the response, I'm sticking with the MM and Grado, so i will go ahead with the Grado ...
Hello Raul , Your silence speaks volumes and tells a lot ..... thanks
Regards.... |
Dear All,
Just for those of you who are interested, I would confirm Raul's suggestion and point out that I have only seen two other AKG P100-LE cartridges for sale and these were on Yahoo Japan and eBay UK.
Happy hunting |
Has anyone heard the Empire 2000E/IV? |
Dear Lewm: You experiences along the Alex one about " old technology/subjects " are facts that are repetitive in many " life areas " and certainly in audio like this time the MM/MI subject.
+++++ " I thought we were more like a lunatic fringe group " ++++
well some one in other thread already posted that we are " lunatics ", the curious about is that that same person latter on recommend a Nagaoka MM cartridge to other Agoner!!!!
Certainly we are not lunatics but people that found that sometimes looking back our eyes to the " history " can be and is a well rewarded full and " new " experience.
IMHO we " lunatics " are living a " Golden era " in cartridge/audio quality performance that never before and IMHO we have to take advantage on this fact till last.
In the other side is pity that only a few of us can have the opportunity to enjoy and to improve the happiness of music reproduction through the MM/MI alternative.
This very rare opportunity is just " there " and any one can take it!!
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Travbrow: AKG made a wonderful work for say the least.
So if they did it means to me that some other cartridge manufacturers can. The issue is: why not yet?
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Kcc123: I'm, joined to other people tank's for your Audio Technica tonearms information.
I owned the 1100 with straight arm wand and own the AT 1010 along the AT 1503.
I can't remember very well the performance atributes of the 1100 but the 1010 ( removable headshell design. ) is really good. Between other characteristics has in its design different set up antiskating device for different cartridge stylus shape.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Weseixas: Usually I answer posts in this thread as coming inn and as I have time to do it and usually too I try to give always an answer, even if late.
Yes, I like it a lot that Grado The Tribute and yes loaded at 100K.
Lewm, already give you a precise answer on what you ask. I'm only would like to add that IMHO a HOMC cartridge is the worst of both worlds: MC and MM/MI.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
My listening experience is in agreement with Raul's; HOMC cartridges as a class have never sounded as good to me as LOMC or MM/MI types. I have owned a couple of Blue Point Specials, a Benz Glider (original version, I think), and a Transfiguration Esprit. Maybe that's why I was so blown away by the Koetsu Urushi, when I switched to it from the Transfig Esprit. Obviously it is possible that there exists one or more HOMC cartridges that is in the same class with the other two types, but it must be a rarity. |
Dear Raul,
The sonic performance of the AT 1100 and AT 1120 tonearms is superior to the AT 1010 and 1503, when partnered with MM /MI cartridges, with which the AT 1010(16 grams) and 1503(20 grams) are handicapped by their high mass.
The AT 1120 and the straight arm tube version of the 1100 give excellent results with many MM/MI cartridges, including the Technics 205C mk3, Ortofon VMS 20mk2, VMS 30mk2, 530mk2, M20FL Super, ADC TRX2, XLM mk3 Improved, Empire 2000mk4……, a performance very close to the superb Mission 774 Original tonearm (5.5 grams).The Mission has a very neutral but slightly dry sound in its presentation.
The other low mass arms which I consider, among the best, are Grace 747 and Hadcock 242(6.5 grams). The Audiocraft AC 3000 Silver Ltd (with straight arm tube), though not a very low mass arm, also offers an admirable performance with some MM/MI cartridges as well. |
Raul ,
Thanks for the response, cartridge already ordered, we will see ... |
Kcc123, I don't believe Raul will be impressed with your argument based on eff.mass. One can change the eff.mass by using lighter headshells. I am not familiar with AT 1503 but well with AT 1010. To my mind an excellent tonearm for MM carts. Regards, |
Dear Kcc123: I can't corroborate/confirm your statement that the 1100 is better than the 1010 sole because the tonearm effective mass, I don't have the 1100 on hand.
I posted several times in different threads including this that through my tonearms/cartridges experiences I found that important as is the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency there are many other factors that are even more important for the final tonearm/cartridge quality performance. One of those factors is the overall build material on the tonearm and cartridge and how good can /could match.
If you read your 1100 operation manual you will read that Audio Technica mated the tonearm with the AT-24 cartridge that is not a high compliance one but more in the low-medium level as is the AT 30 that AT put as example for the resonance frequency subject.
Here it is what I'm talking about:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
02-05-10: Rauliruegas Dear friends: I want to share with you what IMHO and through my experiences maybe could help with the cartridge/tonearm frequency resonance match, please read this link:
http://forums.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1265063971&openflup&6&4
I know that some of my experiences on the subject goes against the theory but a fact tell me more than theory, I know that maybe when we are inside the resonance frequency the performance could be a little different and this is not the subject but that maybe we don't have to follow estrictly all the audio " rules ". The tonearm effective mass where I mounted those Ortofon's is 22grs.
Btw, I have on hand an Audio magazine review of the LOMC Ortofon MC-2000 ( high compliance type. ) made by B.V Pisha where I can read:
" the MC 2000 wasmounted in its magnesium headshell with a Technicsa EPA-A250 ( S shaped tonearm. ) attached to the Technics EPA-B500 base mounted on a Technics SP-10MK2 TT.
The arm-cartridge low-frequency resonance for either channel measured a surprisingly low 5.1 Hz. The vertical resonance was also at 5.1 HZ.
The arm-cartridge dynamic mass was measured at 31grs and the dynamic compliance at 30cu.
The Ortofon MC2000 encountered no difficulty in trackingall the test bands on the Shure ERA III/IV Obstacle Course as well as level 6 (!!!!!) of the Shure ERA V trackability disc that it is a rare commercial analog record that has peack recorded velocities exeeding 15 cm/S.
I was quite impressed with the MC2000 sonic clarity and transparecy of sound, as well as the well defined and tight bass. However, when the arm-cartridge low-frequency lateral and vertical resonance measured 5.1 Hz I was wholly surprised and rechecked my test procedure. >I finally accepted the 5.1 Hz figure as correct.
At no time did I encounter any problem with mistracking or distortion during the many additional hours of listening I did with the MC2000, despite textbook claims that such low resonance would cause these problems. """""
I own this cartridge and can confirm any single word on that review but the measures take it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Today I almost don't care about tonearm efective mass when I want to test any cartridge: I just tested and see what happen and decide about. The relationship between tonearm/cartridge IMHO is more complex than tonearm effective mass, I have a lot of examples about.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Nandric: Your post comes at the same time that mine.
I think that in that subject the target is on quality performance and IMHO this is what we have to looking for. Now if tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency theoretycal target coincide ( at random ) with that quality performance level then even better.
IMHO many of those very old " rules " has to be changed/improved according our " new " knowledge and " new " audio items/technology..
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear friends: W A R N I N G !!! IMHO a very good news: maybe for the last time you will find and kept your hands in a NOS Empire 4000D3 Gold.
The seller still has some in hand that he told me/email me ( I ask for. ) can put on sale for any one of us at: 350.00 + shipping.
You only have to be in touch with him here asking for the cartridge at that price ( you can mention me if you want. I don't have ANY relationship with this seller other that help everyone. ):
jenright@empirescientific.com
Btw, this same week he sold one sample on ebay at: 450.00+shipping.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul,
I had an AT 25 many years ago which was a version of AT 24 with integral headshell. The dynamic compliance of both cartridges at 10 Hz was about 28cu which, by any standard, could be considered as high (higher than Ortofon MC2000 which is 24 cu) indeed. I also have an AT 30 in my cartridge collection and the compliance of it is 17 cu, a figure in the medium to high category. I wonder why you think that the AT 24 is low to medium compliance. I fully agree with you that the effective mass of a tonearm and compliance of a cartridge cannot tell you the whole truth about the actual performance; nevertheless we still have to rely on some theoretical figures as a guideline.
I have many times used my low mass arms(for example, Mission 774 , Grace 707mk1/mk2) with low compliance cartridges or medium to high mass arms( the Micro Seiki MA 505S, Helius Aureus and SAEC 308L) with high compliance cartridges, the results have been very satisfactory so far. And, like you, I don’t believe in text book numbers but actual facts and experience. |
But, Raul, you did not think the "Gold" version was as good as the other; correct? I have an NOS Gold version but have not auditioned it yet. I am slow. |
Dear Lewm: I never had on hand the Gold version but evrything seems to me is similar to the non-Gold one. I can't be 100% sure that the Gold version has the same quality performance than the one I own and reviewed but I think has to be very near if not the same.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Kcc123: I give you this information about, it is not so important to continue a debate that is almost useless because the critical subject IMHO is that you agree too that what you heard/hear is what has importance and not that resonant frequency value.
From the Audio review in the MC2000 this is what you can read word by word in the review:
" The arm-cartridge dynamic mass was measured at 31grs and the dynamic compliance at 30cu "
Using VE calculator the AT-24 has in theory 15-16 cu on dynamic compliance.
Anyway, as you agree: ears say all.
regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Dear Raul,
Just as a reference, according to the measurements by, technical reviewer, Martin Colloms in Hi-Fi Choice (no. 20), the dynamic compliance of the AT 24 was 28 cu and 24cu for the Ortofon MC 2000(no. 38). |
Dear Kcc123: Well some one is wrong: M. Colloms or B.V Pisha of Audio.
The measurements on Audio magazyne those times were IMHO like the " Bible " over High Fidelity and Stereo Review. In the other side maybe the tools to made the MC2000 dynamic compliance measures were different from both magazynes or its " references " or both.
This is what you can read through Audio magazyne and with this , for my part, I finish this useless subject:
" Using the Dynamic Sound Devices DMA-1 Dynamic Mass Analyzer, the arm-cartridge mass was measured at 31grs and the dynamic vertical compliance at 30cu... " Audio magazyne, December 1984. page #86.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul: In the spirit of sharing information, your and Aolsalas' opinion of the ADC ZLM stylus came late. I'd ordered one two days previously and after twelve days (20+ hours) listening with several different tonearms and turntables I have to agree with both of you. Timbre, weight, and tone is good but due to the cantilever's apparent lack of rigidity there is an objectionable congestion in the mids and a lack of refinement in the hf's. Transients, and especially decay need improvement. There appears to be good information from the stylus but the cantilever just seems s-l-o-w. Best results on an ancient Dual 1219 idler. EPA-250 & EPA-500H tonearms were too revealing of the ZLM's lazy response. Tonally, a nice effort from ADC but no winner's cigar.
Good discussion on tonearms, think it best to start within compliance/mass parameters, go from there if potential improvment is suspected. I have a concern about delicate suspensions on a high eff. mass tonearm, 'nough said. Nandric (regards, Nikola) always has well deliberated comments. Headshell material has an influence in resonance concerns, I've been trying cartridge isolators of different compositions recently. Metals, wood and fabric all influence a cartridges' character, some like maleable metal, the Orto. M20FL, burlap and a 12gm. headshell, silver leads. Grace F9-E and -L on cherry next, a few peices of cocobolo, walnut and oak to play with too. Matter of opinion if any are an improvement, entertaining exploration for a retired instructor/cabinetmaker when it's too hot to fish for trout or play on the tractor.
The Acutex LPM 320-111STR is top-notch. Brilliant extended hf's, sweet mids and strong bass. At 250pF transients are delicate or impactful as recorded thoroughout, decay seems as if it will extend into the next cut. The LPM 315-111STR is still lush at 300pF and remains a favorite, LPM 312-111STR & the last of the breed LPM 412STR are in your face rockers. Has anyone else sampled one?
|
Btw, this same week he sold one sample on ebay at: 450.00+shipping.
Well thanks Raul. I'm the idiot who paid $450.00+shipping instead of $350.00! |
Hi Halcro, If it makes you feel any better, you are not alone. I, too, paid $450 for the cartridge. I also asked the seller for a second cartridge at a discount, but didn't receive an answer to my offer. Obviouly, Raul has a magic touch.
Now, please don't construe this to mean I'm not happy with my purchase, I'm thrilled to have the 4000D, but at the same time, I am an old bird on a budget and every $100 counts. Cheers to All and thanks to All for this valuable thread, -bird (long time lurker and believer) |
As regards tonearms, I have long thought that we should discuss what tonearms work best with these rather high compliance cartridges. Modern tonearms tend to have been designed with low compliance LOMC cartridges in mind, so not only are the good ones very expensive, they are also probably not the best choice for MM/MI. Here are some low mass tonearms I am looking at: ADC LMF-1 and LMF-2, Micro Seiki MA707 (which has adjustable effective mass), Infinity Black Widow. I can also put a very lightweight headshell on my Dynavector DV505. Can anyone comment on the relative merits of these and/or does anyone have some other suggestions? I know Dave Garretson has taken steps to lighten up the arm wand on his Transfi, too. |
Lewm,
You might also want to try the Morch DP6 green spot (or red spot for not-so excessively high compliance models). A joy to use and to hear with MM/MI's. |
Dear Halcro: The Empire seller answer to me was after you already bougth it, sorry.
My post about was not for you or other person could feel bad, it was with the only attitude that some persons could take advantage of this cartridge on sale before disappear.
I want to leave very clear that I don't have any kind I repeat any kind of relation with this cartridge seller or any other cartridge seller btw.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul, On the tonearm issue, you have said that the standard correlation of low effective mass with high compliance is only a gross way to determine what combinations of tonearm and cartridge will perform optimally. Is or are there one or more tonearms that you think are particularly excellent with these high compliance cartridges? I gather you like some of the Audio Technica ones, and I appreciate Dgob's suggestion re the Moerch. (Actually, Moerch should have been on my original list; I forgot about that one.) The ADC tonearms are quite cheap when available and are lowest possible effective mass; are they any good? |