So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...😱 As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?! Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever. Then there’s the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.
But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge. Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ’cheap’ brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe". The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus 🤯🙏🏽
I’ve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE. Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding. To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations 😃
So how does it sound.....? Is there a difference to the standard XL-88? Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential? Is the Pope a Catholic....?
This cartridge simply ’blows my mind’...which is hard to do when I’ve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables 🤯 As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamics
I’ll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.
But now I’ve bought myself a nightmarish scenario....... There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge! There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge! Each time I play records with it, I am ’killing’ it a bit more 🥴😥 If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ’listening sessions’ 🤪 But failing this.....I can’t help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
I will sell your most prestigious cartridge in your place before it is completely consumed, so you will no longer have worries and anxiety; I would not like to get your tremendous anguish for the days that remain for me to live! :)
From what you wrote it only improves a bit in all the parameters instead of a lot compared to other cartridges. he he heee :)
Dear Halcro, was this the recent Yahoo auction? If so, you overbid me (and others of course). Good for you, I'm sure it's an amazing cartridge. I didn't dare to go higher, because I too was aware there's no replacement for its one piece cantilever/stylus assembly. But the auction high bid was still a bargain. Enjoy it with caution!
None of the current diamond cantilevers are one piece like the Sony. As far as I know it was unique and understandibly very costly to manufacture. I don't really understand why the current ones are so expensive. It is unlikely that the industrial diamond they use nowadays justify these prices, but I assume 'millionaire marketing' and 'trophyism' go a long way explaining current pricing tactics.
The Dynavector Ruby 23 had a solid Ruby cantilever, The Dynavectror 17D3 has a solid diamond one. They originally cost $700, I bought my last one for $950. I also have a nice Ruby 23 (long discontinued)
Same here, but my Dyna is 17D2 mkII (Micro Reach) and the Ruby is 23RS MR (Micro Reach). Slightly different models than yours, but these are the most reasonably priced cartridges on the used market, including the one with Diamond cantilever. The price for them is cheaper or very close to re-tipping cost today, i would buy another cartridge instead of retip. Those Dyna are great carts!
P.S. I've heard Sony XL-55 with Boron cantilever and did not like it at all. But even this Sony is impossible to repair, because the cartridge body is sealed. I have no interest in Sony cartridges, except for MM, the XL-50 MM with Boron Pipe cantilever is very nice and still cheap.
I've got a virtually new Dynavector 17D3, with its diamond cantilever. As someone else pointed out regarding the D2 version, it never did cost a fortune, and in my opinion it is great value for money. The D3 was available from DV until only recently when it was replaced by the 17DX. Does the DX also have a diamond cantilever? (I am too lazy to look it up.) Anyway, the point is that having a diamond cantilever is per se no excuse for an exorbitant price. DV have been doing it for decades at the mid-price level. Tongue in cheek, I might wonder whether the D3 could be so "inexpensive" because of the short 17mm length of its cantilever. But I doubt it. What we are seeing is the rapid growth of hype in the world of cartridge making. (Not that having a diamond cantilever is not a good thing.)
I looked up the Namiki website, where they offer a variety of cantilever materials: aluminum, zircon, boron, sapphire, ruby and - yup - diamond. Alas, no info on prices, but cartridge manufacturers apparently can buy these off the shelve. Perhaps retippers too?
If so, I might consider to have my Kiseki Lapis Lazuli retipped. This cartridge originally had a diamond cantilever (although not the one piece assembly like Sony). Unfortunately I never heard it like this, because the previous owner had it already retipped by vdHul with a boron cantilever. While I adore this cartridge 'as is', the possibility to 'restore' it back to its original design (when the inevitable retip comes) might be interesting to compare both materials. But the Namiki diamond cantilever will likely come with their own micro ridge tip instead of a vdHul tip. So it's 'apples and oranges' again, but perhaps still worth a try.
Does anyone know of retippers who offer a diamond cantilever option?
As a fact no one. Diamond or Ruby per sé does makes better cartridges at any price.
Dyna is an example of that because Dyna today top of the line models just does not use diamond.
"""
and technological achievement,... "", well Sony was not alone, I owned the MC1000 by AT that came exactly the same: cantilever and stylus in one piece.
Regarding the " statement " you pasted about the Koetsu stones and that's your way of thinking too is not true/wrong.
The Ortofon Anna Diamond is not exactly the Anna as are not the K siamond stones or any other very high price today diamond cantilever cartridges.
Its very high price comes because the diamond models ( like the Anna or whatever. ) even that looks similiar but the cantilever to its " top little brothers " are manufactured with extremely tigth tolerances than the other models even in the cartridge bodies ( sometimes reinforced for less body developed vibrations. ), choosed by hand the best stylus tips ( in the Ortofon the Replicant: they choose the more accurated . ). Same grade of tigth tolerances and accuracy about cartridge suspension, coils and electrical parameters. The cartridge overall equilibrium is way better than the non diamond cantilever similar models.
I took those information directkly from AST engineers years ago when ask for the high price in my AT sample.
In the other side: """
it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world ...""", well this tstatement unfortunatelly is untrue too.
In those times the Sony had a price of 150K Yens when my AT was 200K but the AT was not the only cartridge more expensive than the Sony you own, the following top of the line were more expensive too: Supex D for 270K Yens, Highphonic for 158K, Jeweltone for 200K, Physics for 250K, Final for 230K, the Dyna at similar price than the Sony and the Sonovox for only 330K !
was this the recent Yahoo auction? If so, you overbid me (and others of course).
Dear Edgewear..I trust that you weren't the 'underbidder' at that auction, for if you were.....I hate you with a vengeance 😛 It was a five-day auction and there were a half dozen bidders slowly increasing the price till it was $600 on the last day. I waited till there was 20 minutes left and hit it.....every previous bidder folded at $1000 until there was five minutes to go. Suddenly a new bidder arrived who exceeded my maximum bid and pushed it to $1700. I reassessed...and increased my max. to $1900 but he topped that. I had one last go increasing my max to $2100 and his top was $2000 🥳 Had he known I was 'maxed out'...the cartridge would have been his for $2150 🥵 But had he not appeared at the last minute....I would have had it for $1000.....😎
In those times the Sony had a price of 150K Yens when my AT was 200K but the AT was not the only cartridge more expensive than the Sony you own, the following top of the line were more expensive too: Supex D for 270K Yens, Highphonic for 158K, Jeweltone for 200K, Physics for 250K, Final for 230K, the Dyna at similar price than the Sony and the Sonovox for only 330K !
IN 1980
150K Yen =$714 =$2223 (today)
200K Yen =$952 =$2964 (today)
270K Yen =$1286 =$4000 (today)
158K Yen =$752 =$2341 (today)
250K Yen =$1192 =$3705 (today)
230K Yen =$1095 =$3409 (today)
330K Yen =$1571 =$4892 (today)
That doesn't seem right...? The most EXPENSIVE cartridge in the world (according to Raul) cost just $4892 at today's rate 🤪
I owned the MC1000 by AT that came exactly the same: cantilever and stylus in one piece.
Unfortunately there is no such model listed on Vinyl Engine nor does the World Wide Web reveal its existence. The AT Catalogue lists the MC-2000 II with aluminium cantilever, the MC-3000 II also with aluminium, the MC-5000 with sapphire and the MC-7500 with aluminium. There is mention of the AT-1000 with 'diamond cantilever' but no claims nor evidence of 'one-piece cantilever/stylus'. In the absence of ANY photos, descriptions or confirming evidence of its existence on the entire WWW.....the above statement appears to be a fabrication.
@halcro I ask if for $ 2000 (crazy expense for a used cartridge but maybe you slipped from hand the keyboard control) you can’t buy a new cartridge that sounds better than the XL88D? Was the original box and paper provided with the purchase?
I've heard Sony XL-55 with Boron cantilever and did not like it at all.
The XL-55 and XL-88 are about as DIFFERENT from each other as any cartridges can be 🤗 Not only in SIZE and SHAPE....but particularly soundwise. The XL-55 has a distinctly 'coloured', warm and robust presentation...not dissimilar to the vintage 'A' Style SPUs. The XL-88 in contrast...is neutral, dynamic, detailed, transparent and nimble.
you can’t buy a new cartridge that sounds better than the XL88D?
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO 🤗 The STANDARD XL-88 is itself, the best cartridge I’ve heard in my system with the $10,000 AS-PALLADIAN and $5,000 LONDON DECCA REFERENCE as ’runners-up’. The XL-88D is the ’Holy Grail’ for me.... It’s the elusive ’perfect’ cartridge for which I’ve been searching over the last 10 years! I can truly state that my quest is over...😝 and if I buy another cartridge....it’s because I’m really really sick 🤮 Yes....$2,000 is a lot for a ’used’ cartridge, but how much do you think ’used’ Lyra cartridges are selling for? Or Koetsu Stone Bodies or Colibri Master Signatures or top Ortofon MCs? Don’t forget....the XL-88D cost $13,700 at today’s prices so I consider $2,000 a ’steal’ 😉
Was the original box and paper provided with the purchase?
Unfortunately not.....but beggars can’t be choosers 🥴 I’ve seen a few XL-88Ds for sale with box and papers....but the cantilevers and styli did not look like THIS!
@best-groove I don't buy ANY 'used' cartridges without good-quality closeup shots of the styli 🧐 I don't trust anyone's admission of 'hours-of-use'....🤥
I didn't understand this sentence....
Haha.....it means if you're really desperate for something (begging for it)...you can't be fussy 🙏🏽
I don't know what was meant by one-piece stylus and cantilever, but, if it really means starting with a single diamond that is then cut to form the stylus and cantilever, that diamond would have to be pretty low-grade to start with in order for the price to be anything but astronomical. High quality stylus are made from decent quality natural stones with the cutting and shaping done so that the lattice structure is properly oriented to maximize resistance to wear along the contact points. You could not really do this with a truly one-piece stylus-cantilever diamond.
Does anyone know if the diamond cantilevers were solid pieces or a hollow tube? For any given mass, a tube would be the way to go to maximize strength and rigidity (better to have a fat tube than a thin solid piece of the same mass).
Given that there are buyers out there that will pay almost any price for something special, I would expect that, if diamond cantilevers where inherently superior, many of the premium builders would be offering that feature on their ultra expensive models.
Dear @halcro : I forgot the Audio Note IO Limited for 160K Yens.
"" (according to Raul) ..."" , well it’s according the official Japanese audio Bible ( hard paper. ).
""" Another case of:-
Believe what he says at your own risk.. """#
You can’t stay with the mouth closed when I post in your thread and I say this because your statement was and is exactly dedicated to you. You gave wrong/untrue information and if some one ( in this case my self. ) did not disclosed all of us believe your words " at our own risk.
When some one post something in any thread gave us opinions that we can take " at our own risk ". So why re-mark that because my post? ? ? ?
Btw, I figure out that the straigth headshells you use in the 8000 straigth arm wand permits that preserving the 306 tonearm effective length mount the cartridges with the correct ( around 18° ) offset angle and overhang. At least you posted about with out explanation.
About the AT1000MC that's the information that the AT President and Director here en México told me that was and is my friend. When those two samples arrived here ( one for my friend and one for me. ) not even exist in USA or Canada or other place in America Continent.
In those old times I was really far away to be an " expert " in cartridges ( not even today. ) and for me the MC ones were a " news ". Btw, I bougth it at very low price: AT cost free shipping to México. ! !
So I could be wrong on the characteristic but it's what remember my friend told me. Tha's all.
I have a Koetsu stone with and without diamond cantilever, and indeed it offers notably increased detail, speed, and dynamics without reducing or altering the Koetsu’s musicality or flow - in fact it even helps those attributes. However if your system relies upon the top end reduction of a traditional Koetsu, the diamond models have a bit less of that.
It’s not a "single piece" - the cantilever is made of a different (lower) quality of diamond than stylus, as it has a very light greenish/gray tint. Solid, not pipe. The stylus appears to be fused (I don’t see any glue) into a hole cut into the cantilever. The diamond models have slightly shorter cantilevers than boron and ride a little lower.
They’re a good option for those who love the Koetsu sound above all others, and want the next level of that. It’s available as an optional upgrade for any of the Platinum models (including RSP), but of course doesn’t come cheap. I'm not going to say they're an "essential" upgrade for Koetsu lovers, but I was impressed when I first heard it.
No worries, I was one of those cowards who folded at $1000. 😞 Double that amount is a pretty sum, but I have no doubt it will stand comparison with any of today's $10k plus cartridges. Looking at it this way it's still a bargain. 😀
BTW, I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear. Do you have this and if so, what do you think of it?
I own the Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum with DC. Gift from my lady.
Speed and brilliance without glare or astringency. Have never heard a cartridge like it, and although the Miyajima Zero is awfully good, it lacks the ultimate refinement of the Koetsu.
Congratulations Halcro. Glad you like it. And welcome to the club!
Btw, the 55 models seen the " ligth " before the 88 and were in the 55 where we can find out the famous 8 figure at the coils that shared to the 88 models.
I wonder why the 88 has higher output than the 55: 0.4mv vs 0.2mv in the 55. Other than that differences are at the cantilever material and stylus shape. The Sony model that comes with the same 88 stylus shape is the 44L.
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """"
perhaps someone in his turntable and system does not find it so marvelous or it could be a cartridge that, in any context, holds the leadership, remains a super queen unchallenged..... in short where everyone agrees.
I’ve heard Sony XL-55 with Boron cantilever and did not like it at all.
@halcro
my mistake, but anyway a sample of my ex flat mate was not impressive against my Zyx Airy III at that time, compared on my EPA-100
the one i like better is Sony XL-50 MM with Boron Pipe cantilever, i have it NOS, very nice for the money. Have you tried ?
Neither the Sony XL-55 nor XL-88 (in standard form) had Boron cantilevers.
You’re right. So it was even more compicated cantilever on the Sony XL-55 MC sample i did not like :)) The cantilever on XL-55 MC was "A triple-layer carbon clad cantilever using a special light alloy is used." The next one on PRO model was "A triple-structure carbon clad cantilever using beryllium / aluminum / carbon fiber is used. " But i never tried a PRO version. On XL-88 we can see the same "Triple cladding of beryllium / aluminum / carbon fiber is used to achieve high rigidity and light weight." And on your XL-88D we have Gemstone "cantilever integrated super elliptical diamond needle". On all models only elliptical tip :((
150K Yen =$714 =$2223 (today)
7500 DM =$4400 =$13700 (today)
Actually the price for XL-88D in the 80’s was 150 000 YEN as you can see here. (Same price for Dynavector KARAT Nova 13D), very expensive for its time, but not as much as you think.
I don’t know why do you think the price was 7500 DM ($4400) in the 80’s ? In Japan the price for XL-88D was just 150 000 YEN ($714) in the 80s, not $4400, i don’t think the difference between Japan and German retailers is so big, can’t be true!
I think you mixed up two different models, there was a regular XL-88D and limited edition version that was made in very small quantity! J.Carr has mentioned this mega rare model on a’gon years ago. I think that model was expensive, but not the XL-88D that you have.
The Yahoo Japan auction site looks like a very DANGEROUS place for someone like myself to visit! lol.
Uber, it's not for the faint-hearted 😬 but the first 'auction' is the most fearful. After that...with more experience, it becomes easy and exciting. I list my cartridge 'Preferences' with HiFi Shark and every day they send me an Email with Links to any of those cartridges they have found on any site on the Internet. 80% of the Links they send me are for Japan Yahoo....understandable as most of the cartridges I desire were made mostly for the Japanese market. Once you sign up to Aleado...the Administrator of Japan Yahoo....you have to deposit funds into your Account via PayPal before you can bid at any Auction. This scares most people but it's perfectly safe I've found. You 'Bid' your max. amount but they only put the amount needed to beat the highest offer by another Bidder. Communication with Aleado is excellent and prompt and if you 'win' the Auction.....their packing of the goods is unbelievable 🤯👍 The only caveat about the Site is......the 'automatic' English translation of the Japanese description of the 'Goods' is USELESS!!!! That's why one needs to be able to assess the product from careful examination of the pictures supplied.
BTW, I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear. Do you have this and if so, what do you think of it?
Congratulations Edgewear 👍 Yes...I owned the VICTOR MC-L1000 complete with original PACKAGING AND PAPERS. An incredible cartridge with its COILS AT THE TIP..... I found its presentation from the Midrange upwards to be perhaps the most realistic and stunning I think I've ever heard. The only negative I found (and hopefully it's not endemic to all examples of the model) is a reticence in the Bass presentation which after a while....I couldn't live with 😢 So regretfully I had to sell it 🥺 I will be interested to hear your impressions...?
I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear.
I remember another comment from J.Carr who said the MC-L10 is the most balanced between 3 direct couple type from Victor. It is also the most reasonably priced one (imo). I have MC-1 and MC-L10 and like them very much on Victor and Sony tonearms. It is hard to find a working sample, even for the most expensive MC-L1000 one channel malfunction is a common problem.
When Prof. Hibino demonstrated his ''Zenn MCZ'' to Klipsch , Klipsch was so impressed that he ordered 4 kinds each with different cantilever because Klipsch was convinced that different cantilevers will produce different timbre satisfying this way different tastes: aluminum (alloy), boron, sapphire and diamond. As J. Carr explained in our forum the advantage of aluminum is that stylus can be pressure fitted while this method provide better rigidity to the combo then glued styli in the ''éxotic materials''. The glue between stylus and cantilever is obviously not a good thing. There is however one other kind of ''between'' which is never mentioned. The so called ''joint pipe'' on which also the coils and tension wire are fastened. This part is usually made from aluminum. By many carts one can see this part just behind the cantilever. By the latest Van den Hul's this part looks longer than the boron part... So it ''follows'' (?) that diamond cantilever/stylus combo made from one piece of diamond is different kind of animal. However even this animal needs ''joint pipe'' made from aluminum as is the case by Sony XL 88 D.
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """"
perhaps someone in his turntable and system does not find it so marvelous..."""
Rigth, halcro opinion is only his opinion.
In audio we need to be a very knowledge man with full expertise and understanding not only on sound/home audio but in MUSIC too to give or post " the best " on anything.
Other problem is that each one of us normally have different music/sound priorities and this fact makes " things " more complex to find out a true " the best " of audio items.
There is however one other kind of ’’between’’ which is never mentioned. The so called ’’joint pipe’’ on which also the coils and tension wire are fastened. This part is usually made from aluminum. By many carts one can see this part just behind the cantilever.
Yep. I can only illustrate it with a picture made with another cartridge, but the structure of the cantilever is the same as Sony, the difference is Sapphire instead of diamond, but the "joint pipe" is just like this.
While SONY has this very long joint pipe, some other cartridges with Diamond cantilever like Dynavector comes with very short joint pipe (more like a collar) and diamond cantilever is much shorter.
My dear Slavic brother, ''big'', ''long'' etc. descriptions are logical not ''sound''. The reason is that presupposed comparisons are described as properties of objects. Being ''long in Holland'' means something totally different than being ''long in Greece or Italy''. I was long in Serbia but am shorter in Holland. I.e. relational sentences can't be described with ''subject is predicate '' form. You have also try the same ''method'' with ''little'' suggesting that very little glue between the stylus and cantilever is as ''good'' as no glue at all. I love you but the truth even more . The same stated Aristoteles about Plato: ''amicus Plato sed veritas amicitat''. Does ''very short pipe'' mean no pipe at all?
Yes, I'm eagerly anticipating its arrival and will report my findings. Based on its construction and design I would expect it to have some similarities with my Ikeda 9 Rex (which is definitely NOT shy in the lower registers). We'll see how it turns out.
This was my first Yahoo auction, but I'll admit I'm less brave than you are. I know a trusted person in Japan doing the bidding for me and handling the transaction. He reads the Japanese description (the English translation as you say is useless) and will even contact the seller for more info if needed.
@best-groove: good to know Daniele can fix it if there's a problem. I hope it won't be needed, but thanks for the tip.
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