Rauliruegas, it seems to me the big difference is the way certain stylus shapes like the Gyger S decrease surface noise some how. Straight elliptical styli are noisier. Perhaps the larger contact area rides over the surface of the record better. There is a reason but I have never heard any of the experts voice it.Ā
Who needs a Diamond Cantilever...? š
So suddenly, there seems to be a trend for Uber-LOMC cartridges released with Diamond Cantilevers...š±
As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?!
Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever.
Then thereās the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.
But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge.
Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ācheapā brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe".
The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus š¤Æšš½
Iāve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE.
Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding.
To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations š
So how does it sound.....?
Is there a difference to the standard XL-88?
Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential?
Is the Pope a Catholic....?
This cartridge simply āblows my mindā...which is hard to do when Iāve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables š¤Æ
As Syntax said on another Thread:-
But now Iāve bought myself a nightmarish scenario.......
There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge!
There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge!
Each time I play records with it, I am ākillingā it a bit more š„“š„
If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ālistening sessionsā š¤Ŗ
But failing this.....I canāt help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
As if the High-End MC cartridges were not already overpriced....?!
Orofon have released the MC-ANNA-DIAMOND after previously releasing the Limited Edition MC-CENTURY...also with Diamond Cantilever.
Then thereās the KOETSU BLOODSTONE PLATINUM and DYNAVECTOR KARAT 17D2 and ZYX ULTIMATE DIAMOND and probably several more.
But way back in 1980....Sony released a Diamond-Cantilevered version of its fine XL-88 LOMC Cartridge.
Imaginatively....they named this model the XL-88D and, because it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world (costing 7500DM which was more expensive than a Volkswagen at the time)....Sony, cleverly disguised this rare beast to look EXACTLY like its ācheapā brother with its complex hybrid cantilever of "special light metal held by a carbon-fibre pipe both being held again by a rigid aluminium pipe".
The DIAMOND CANTILEVER on the 88D however......was a thing of BEAUTY and technological achievement, being formed from ONE PIECE OF DIAMOND including the stylus š¤Æšš½
Iāve owned the XL-88 for many years and recently discovered that it was my best (and favourite) cartridge when mounted in the heavy Fidelity Research S-3 Headshell on the SAEC WE-8000/ST 12" Tonearm around my VICTOR TT-101 TURNTABLE.
Without knowing this in advance.....I would not have been prepared to bid the extraordinary prices (at a Japanese Auction Site) that these rare cartridges keep commanding.
To find one in such STUNNING CONDITION with virtually no visible wear was beyond my expectations š
So how does it sound.....?
Is there a difference to the standard XL-88?
Is the Diamond Cantilever worth the huge price differential?
Is the Pope a Catholic....?
This cartridge simply āblows my mindā...which is hard to do when Iāve had over 80 cartridges on 10 different arms mounted on two different turntables š¤Æ
As Syntax said on another Thread:-
When you have 2 identical carts, one regular cantilever and the other one with diamond cantilever (Koetsu Stones for example), the one with diamond cantilever shows more details, is a bit sharper in focus and the soundstage is a bit deeper and wider. They can sound a bit more detailed overall with improved dynamicsIāll leave it at that for the time being. I will soon upload to YouTube, the sound comparisons between the two Sony versions on my HEAR MY CARTRIDGES THREAD.
But now Iāve bought myself a nightmarish scenario.......
There is no replacement stylus for this cartridge!
There is no replacement cantilever for this cartridge!
Each time I play records with it, I am ākillingā it a bit more š„“š„
If I knew how long I had left to live......I could program my ālistening sessionsā š¤Ŗ
But failing this.....I canāt help but feel slightly uncomfortable listening to this amazing machine.
358 responses Add your response
dover : The original Shibata ( same dimensions. ) stylus shape is used by Ortofon today and in other designs. You can read experiences with a Shibata design cartridges: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/classic-ortofon-cartridges-the-mc2000-mk-ii-or-the-mc3000-mk-... both the Jubilee and the Cadenza comes with that stylus shape. I owned the Jubilee and like me, no problem with. Yes, only opinions. R. |
Dear @doverĀ :Ā "Ā
Ā I have found every shibata tipped cartridge I have heard to be brittle... "" If I remember the original Shibata was used mainly for the CD-4 recordings and several vintage cartridges ( mainly MM. ) used to as the AT 20 Sla/SS that, between other shibata cartridges designs, I owned but at least with those AT I don't remember or can't remember that " characteristic " you mentioned. Btw, several design cartridges including today ones that in theory comes with Shibata in reality are " modified Shibata or Shibata like " but not the original Shibata shape. R. |
I am using a Beryllium Cantilever with Ogura Vital + Stylus that was installed into the Cartridge in 2019. This compared to the Ruby Cantilever used on the Original Design is noticeablyĀ improved and presents in a much more attractive manner. Hoow the Two different Stylus Shapes are contributing to the SQ differences is an unknown to myself.Ā I recently tried to have another Cartridge produced with the same Beryllium/Ogura parts, but the option is no longer on offer. Boron is now the Material of choice I am looking at, hence the inquiry about the Gold Plated Option. |
Dear @halcroĀ :Ā Well, in your list of cartridges that are not any more with you all them have something in common: all came from different DESIGNERSĀ that along other contemporary top LOMC ones all choosed boron build material for their cartridge designs and as edgewear pointed out to you the quality performance levels of many of those designs are really great. In the other side the market today very high price of LOMC cartridges is not way different that in the past where the top models had a very high market price for the market standards in those old times when existed a way way higher demand for cartridges against the very low number of today audiophiles that buy today LOMC cartridges. As @dover and several other gentlemans I don't buy a cartridge because its cantilever builed material and in specific if it's boron or beryllium with the vintage ones. I think that what you did not like it of your list cartridge performance is its overall quality levels that just is different from your audio/music priorities but not because boron. In the side of beryllium vs boron where you prefer beryllium it's the same but not because in specific of beryllium that's inferior to boron as cantilever material:Ā beryllium Moh hardeness a low 5.5 vs 9.3 in boron and Young Modulus is almost the third of the boron. Two critical parameters for the cartridge cantilevers needs. Btw, it's really weird that you can't be aware if you are listenin to a MC cartridge or at MM/MI one. Maybe could be because your room/system can't " tell you "? Please do not diminish my next advise: could be that when you decide to make a really easy tests with the Wima/Kemet caps in your speakers you will listen those differences that exist between MC and MM/MI cartridges. Those Duelund are high colored caps. R. |
@dover, I think you are being a little harsh on halcro. Most people do not have access to equipment like you do. I had that kind of access once so I have lived on both sides of the street. When selecting a cartridge there is always a bit of luck involved. You select one by reputation and whatever criteria you deem important. You rarely get to hear one at length. Hopefully, you like it.Ā There is no question that MM cartridges sound different than MC cartridges. Which one is better depends entirely on taste. My tendency over the years is to stick with MI cartridges. I find many MC cartridges to be irritating and tinny. Many are lacking in dynamic range regardless of what phono stage you use. To me, miss tracking is the biggest evil of all followed by record wear issues such as tracking force. Protecting my record collection is first and foremost. I also tend to gravitate towards fine line styli. They are quieter in my experience.Ā Ā |
Why is the ''argument'' put in the context of ''what things have in common''? Is this Aristotelian ''esence of things'' or some other ''lose criterion''?Ā All people have in common the ''property'' (?) of being human . But what is the scientific value of such generalisations? To formulate any ''general statement'' one needs (universal) quantifiers like ''all'', ''some'', etc. But those are not names with referential function, The so called ''numerical quantifier'' explainĀ the difference : there are exactly 10000000 immigrants in Germany.Ā European commission declared that ''each fugitive has the right to asylum procedure''. But ''each'' does not say how many those are while each European country is only willing to allow limited number of immigrants.Ā Seeing from immigrants side each of them want to reach European borders without any chance for asylum. They then walke to the North with Germany or UK as destination.Ā But the actual sitution is that each European country has the problem with illegal immigrants. Caused by the fact that European commission has no idea what ''all'' means.Ā Ā |
@halcroĀ All these cartridges have 3 things in common.... Having said that I wouldn't have bought any of those cartridges exept for the Urushi for Ravel La Valse, and the Lyra Titan i for speed and precision. I wouldn't necessarily ascribe the sound of any of these specifically to the boron cantilever. There are many audiophiles who claim to clearly hear the differences between MC and MM cartridges.....Iām not one of those š¤ We have a phrase here in NZ - yeah right. There are many audiophiles who will only praise the virtues of exotic-profile Line-Contact type styli...Iām almost in that ācampā but am not dogmatic š¤ The only one I have a complete aversion to is the shibata - I have found every shibata tipped cartridge I have heard to be brittle - much prefer micro ridge of the exotic tips. |
@halcroĀ , not that your opinion does not count but, the vast majority of cartridge manufacturers prefer boron rod cantilevers. In a competitive market were top performance counts there must be a reason for this. Who knows, It might just be that boron rods are more available. Diamond comes up once in a while but does not gain much traction for whatever reason. It is significantly heavier than boron which is going to cut high frequency performance and lower the resonance point of the cantilever and it's suspension perhaps creating a high frequency peak which some people might like.Ā Right now I have two cartridges. One has a boron cantilever the other a ruby cantilever. The boron is MM and the ruby is MI.Ā |
Dear Halcro, as you know we agree on many things, but a 'ban on boron'? I haven't heard any of the ones you mention, but this is rather too categorical. Van den Hul Colibri, Transfiguration Orpheus & Proteus and Ortofon A95 all have boron cantilevers and they're some of the best cartridges I ever heard. Be careful what you (don't) wish for.... |
All these cartridges have 3 things in common....
It also no longer exists in my System......š There are many audiophiles who claim to clearly hear the differences between MC and MM cartridges.....Iām not one of those š¤ There are many audiophiles who will only praise the virtues of exotic-profile Line-Contact type styli...Iām almost in that ācampā but am not dogmatic š¤ I never have been able to listen to anything āDigitalā....even digitally recorded/produced/mastered/mixed VINYL RECORDS generally leave me unmoved š¢ And I have never been āentrancedā by ANY cartridges with Boron Cantilevers š„± The majority (over 20) of my cartridge collection have Beryllium Cantilevers. Aluminium Cantilevers make up the next highest number whilst Sapphire, Ruby, Diamond and exotic composites make up the numbers. Ā Just saying........š |
I have read through this thread and been gathering information on Cantilever Materials that I do not usually consider. There has been points made that I will need to spend more time with and see where they take me. According to information within this thread Audio Technica have in the Past used a Gold Plated Boron Tube for a Cantilever. Today on certain AT cartridges, they are using a Gold Plated Boron Rod. The Marketing claims this is an improved damping design. Is there any thoughts on the benefits of a Gold Plated Boron Rod in place of a Boron Rod when used as cantilever.Ā Ā Ā |
Scan-Tech made it those Audioquest models under Audioquest very specific targets. @ rauliruegasĀ Exactly |
Dear friends and halcro : For those that could ve interested to test and have some fun with those Wima/Kemet caps on speaker crossovers or electronics this is the thread that I opened looking for experienced gentlemans help and was through the thread time where I ( again )Ā going against all the audiophile " rules " and advises of those experienced gentlemans discovered for what for me was a great " surprise " ( for say the least. ) and the best lesson in my audio life. Can this cap " excercise " works for you? I don't know for sure but I don't " see " why not. The ones of you that decide to try the cap test please read carefully the thread title ( we are not looking for some kind of " color or something similar of what we own but a " dead neutral " caps. ) before have a conclusion about and give those 20-40 hours to have serious listening sessions:Ā https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitors R. |
Dear @best-groove : I seen what you said through the 7000 photo. I really did not check with care about my fixed vintage cartridges where some of them comes with " plastic " body. Btw, I owned the 7000 Fe5 and truly good quality performer. Scan-Tech made it those Audioquest models under Audioquest very specific targets. R. |
He repaired a broken cartridge. The friend reported that it was sent to VDH just for a simple check as it had stood still in its packaging for years and did not want to have any problems for after sale. I bought it some time later; I'm not the one who decided to send it to VDH .... I wouldn't send him anything even if he were the only cartridge repairer on the planet. |
Van den hul's work in my experience ( 35 years ) is superb. As far as I know he is the only person to succesfully repair the super rare Technics EPC100 cartridges. The best rebuilt Koetsu Onyx Gold I have ever heard was one done by van den hul - and I have had north of 40 Koetsu's rebuilt ( both stone bodied and wood ) by either van den hul or the orginal Garrott Bros. Furthermore I have never known van den hul refuse to redo any work that wsn't up to scratch - his after sales service & support is superb. |
Here look what he did, he ruined an Audioquest AQ 7000 worth over 3000 $ in my country by putting his damn signature on it without authorization. No he didn't you plonker. He repaired a broken cartridge. If you didn't want vdh to sign his work, then you should have sent the cartridge back to the manufacturer for repair. |
Dear @halcro : I think that as me you try that your system could play at its best and thatās why time to time we audiophiles made some kind of " improvements/up-date " that normally ( not always. ) are for the better. I donāt know your speakers driver signature in your custom speakers you own but what I know very well is with which quality levels performs almost all ( by first hand experiences. ) fancy/expensive capacitors ( including Duelund that I owned. ) against the deep humble caps that an audiophile never turn around its eyes for a sigth and this including me. Well, not many time ago I , just for fun, turn around my eyes to Wima caps ( a true industry/every where standard, Vishay , Kemet. ) along these 2 last caps. Just for fun test in your tweeter ( easy to unsolder/solder job. ) the Wima FKP 1 . Its higher capacitance is 4.7 uf so you can choose a couple of FKP 1: 3.3+2.2 or 4.7+1.0 . Caps in parallel works great. Do it a favor and test it before to think you are not " crazy or foolish " to do it. After 20 hours of play you can make a serious listening tests. You need to invest a lot less money " ridiculous money " for the 4 ( even 8 to have two alternatives for those 5.6uf. ) Wima caps than what 1 Duelund set you back. Btw, I think the other cap in your speakers has a 40uf capacitance and for this one I recomended the Wima MKP 10 ( 47uf higher capacitance. ) where you need here too a couple of caps to run in parallel. Halcro when I tested for the first time I orderd the caps for tweeters and mid range and I tested almost at the same time. You can read the whole experiences in my capacitor thread under tech-talk Agon forum. You canāt go wrong or lost anything about because if you donāt like it just return to Duelund and if you like it then: good. R. The lower Wima tolerance is 5%. Don't worry about no single cap ( and I bougth a lot of ones. ) of those models measured higher than 1.5% tolerance, normally at 1% or lower. |
@rauliruegas Here look what he did, he ruined an Audioquest AQ 7000 worth over 3000 $ in my country by putting his damn signature on it without authorization. If I had been in the friend who sent her for a check I would have sued VdH for damages without thinking for a moment;Ā this kind of thing makes me terribly pissed off. https://i.postimg.cc/PrdMcY9H/P1010882.jpg |
Certainly not all. VDH fixed around 10-12 non VDH cartridges with success and only on one of them used an easy to take out stiker. have you checked well with a magnifying glass if he has applied his signature on your cartridges? Give me the time I take a macro photo on a head that I bought from a friend; my friend (just for a check before sell) have send the Mr. VdH the cartridge and have applied the goddamn signature of him. At first I did not notice it then inspecting it well I discovered that he had signed this cartridge as well, but by now it was too late and I had already paid. |
Dear @best-groove : " with electric pen on the body all the cartridges that pass through his hands..." Certainly not all. VDH fixed around 10-12 non VDH cartridges with success and only on one of them used an easy to take out stiker. VDH fixed to me and other two gentlemans an almost new EPC100C MK4 cartridges that I donāt knew was a reference for him and still uses. Is it the best re-tipper out there or the best alternative? maybe not today there are several very good re-tippers but VDH makes a good job in a decent time and not so expensive as some of the other re-tippers. In the other side nothing is perfect in the audio world that sometimes happens what your brother experienced. "" do we want to discuss quality controls? "" . Ā Come on, sometimes even from new top of the line LOMC " things " happens like whe the Anna just appeared in the market. Obviously Ortofon took care of the owners and fixed one for all the " problem " with the next Anna samples. But rigth in this thread mijostyn posted what happened to him with a new Clearaudio and I remember very well that been at the place of a very good friend in a trip to houston he had mounted in his Rockpot rig a Lyra Titan iĀ and when the cartridge started to track the first LP we detected that something was wrong because we were listened some kind of music/sound but totally wrong, then after a while and checking every where we took in count that the Titan i had not the stylus tip and IĀ saked him how many hour of play had that cartridge and he told me around 200 hours. Btw, normally I donāt send to any re-tipper a top of the line recent LOMC cartridge but to the manufacturer for a change by. R. |
bestgrooove, that is interesting to hear about your experience with VDH. Just in looking at pictures of his cartridges I always thought they looked amateurish. What you are saying does not surprise me at all but there are some people who swear by his work. I would never buy one because the workmanship is not up to the standards other manufacturers use. AHH, "but it is handmade!" I've got news for everyone, all cartridges are hand made. AHH, "but not by VDH himself!" I would rather have my cartridge built by a 26 year old woman with eagle eyes and rock steady hands. I'm 67 and I would never try to assemble a cartridge now. I can place sutures but I have to use one hand to steady the other. Working under a microscope would be a real mess.Ā |
@rauliruegas, Thanx, I thought there must be a reason so many top manufacturers would use boron rod aside from a nice flat end to glue a stylus too and index it correctly. I had a Talisman S for years. I liked it a lot. It was small and light, tracked super well and imaged nicely. It was a little thin sounding overall in my system. Eventually a wire broke inside and one channel went dead. It was replaced by a Grado Statement.Ā The glue being used is probably softened by certain solvents. As an example ethanol will slowly dissolve epoxy. Water is no danger. In a pint of distilled water add two drops of J+J's Baby Shampoo. This works great as a stylus/cantilever cleaner and will not damage the glue. Glued on styli are tough enough to handle routine use just fine. They are not as tough as pressed in styli but there is considerably less mass were it counts. I did have the stylus off a Clearaudio Charisma vaporize not long ago but it was brand new and was replaced instantly by the importer Musical Surroundings. The replacement has been fine. You definitely do not want to drop or fumble the tonearm. I've always cued by hand but I think that is going to change. Schroder arms do not come with tonearm rests. Mr Schroder believes in avoiding anything not totally necessary hanging off his arms. He believes they resonate. I always lock my arms in place when I work on the cartridge. You can't work on an arm floating around, dangerous. So I made a cocobolo tonearm rest that will be attached to the Sota's plinth which I have been lead to believe I will have in two weeks or construction will start in two weeks, not clear:-(Ā In December I will be going to NYC for the audio show. On the way down I plan on stopping at Soundsmith to hear the Strain Gauge. I will try and get an answer from Mr Ledermann why he does not use a diamond cantilever. His best cartridges use ruby and cactus spines.Ā |
When I asked local VdH distributor about rebuild/retip they did not even replied to my request!Better this way ... maybe you saved your cartridge! I would never send a cartridge to VDH first of all because he has the habit of signing by engraving with electric pen on the body all the cartridges that pass through his hands without the authorization of the customer and this is very irritating as well as indelibly ruining the virginity of the bodywork, second because in the 80s my brother sent a Nakamichi MC 1000 to replace the stylus and the cantilever and came back with a terrible job, basically a graft with a lump of glue to join the two parts that not even the worst retipped could do; moreover he has pasted personalized stickers on the whole original box and on the front of the cartridge, going to ruin the support if it were necessary to remove them. I have read of other poorly executed works on the cartridges of the owners who later complained and this made me reflect that not all the cartridges that pass through his hands are perfect; I have several things to write but I prefer to stop here. No no no I'm sorry ... I don't trust this character at all in the way he works, neither he nor his assistants, probably other owners are more fortunate. |
Chakster, if by VdH, you mean Van den Hul: I have been sending my cartridges to him for 25 years minimum. Iām a ānormalā person (if I put aside the fact that Iām an audiophile) and I speak to people there, get emails back and forth... When youāve been sending your cartridges to him 20-25 years ego it was way before internet communication became worldwide standard and a big part of our life. Itās obvious that you build your personal relations with Mr. Van den Hul in 20th century, now itās 21st century :) You became his customer long time ago and all you need is to ask him by email when you need his help, because youāre his customer for 25 years. This is fine, I like it! BUT when people like me would like to contact him itās impossible! Customers can do that ONLY via his distributors. When I asked local VdH distributor about rebuild/retip they did not even replied to my request! I am much closer to Netherlands than you, but I have to ask distributors according to VdH sales/service policy. I doubt he proceed with rebuild/retip by his own nowadays, with exception made for his long time customers (or his own products) and his distributor will definitely add his margin to the final price for service @unreceivedogma |
Dear @halcroĀ : """Ā
WHY we are able to hear such differences between cartridges, tonearms, turntables, drive-systems, solid state vs vacuum tube.....should make it obvious that we are in the hands of āArtistsā, āCreatorsā...""" """"Ā This state of affairs has not existed in āAnalogue Audioā for 30 years and the elder masters and craftsmen have virtually all disappeared together with the vast data-banks they had assembled within their mega-billion $ companies. The result has been, that the recent resurgence of āAnalogue Audioā has inevitably led to āself-taughtā, under-educated and inexperienced ānewbiesā entering the industry to fill the vacuum. Their sole contribution to the āArt/Scienceā of cartridge, tonearm and turntable design is ātechnologyā š They believe that everything can be improved by the advancements in materials science, computers, lasers, 3D printing, CNC machining, chemistry etc. They are mistaken.....! And so are all the gullible, innocent followers of most of the new analogue products launched over the last 15 years. """" I think that when you postedĀ that dayyou wake up very " romantic " and yesĀ about vintage analog rig there is " romanticism " around it. Look, your tonearm that comes from the Cobra one really is about computer software " technology " . Its shape has nothing to do with that art you mentioned. In its site you can read: """""Ā Ā A complex shape and choice of materials demonstrates a departure from the norm in the commercially available alternatives. Just as Caliburn, the turntable, revolutionised turntable design by use of FEA software and shape optimisation, so too Continuum Audio Laboratories has used the same software technology to derive the new shape and performance parameters of the potent Cobra tonearm.Ā """"" When you posted this :Ā "Ā innocent followers of most..." You forgot to mention: " me included " because you owned TW TT, ZYX , Da Vinci and otherĀ items coming from " mistaken " designers/manufacturers. Could you try to tell us what's wrong with the Ortofon A95 or the Xquisite or Etsuro or Lyra Etna Lambda cartridges and many today " mistaken " designs? or what's wrong with Kuzma 4 point, SME 5, Reed, etc, etc. tonearms? or what's wrong with the @jtinn DD Wave Kinetics turntable? Of that you can to follow living in the " past " because is what you enjoy through your listening sessions butevery hting in erth is moving on at each " second " and normally for the better ( sometimes is not. ). Like you I love MUSIC and certainly LPs too but from some time now digital is a superior alternative. Like it or not you can't stop " mistaken " digital technology ( with out that your tonearm just does not existed. ). I enjoy both alternatives and if you know how to use technology is always welcomed and that's what all those today " mistaken " designers/manufacturers are doing day after day. You can live sticked to your " art " when all the audio world ( not only analog rig but electronics and the like. ) is MOVE ON in favor of MUSIC. As you all these is only my opinion, I respect yours. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
That expletive is really hard to pronounce.Ā What language is it?Ā I don't blame you for your consternation at being asked to pay $600 to diagnose a problem in your preamplifier, but could that be because SS are not necessarily expert with electronics per se and would need to farm out the work, pay some third party at his retail, and then make a profit over that amount?Ā I think that could be the explanation.Ā In the area of cartridge manufacture and repair, we are lucky to have both SS and vdH at our service.Ā If you have a problem with electronics in future, I recommend Bill Thalmann at Music Technology in Springfield, VA.Ā Very capable, honest as they come, a nice guy, and reasonable charges. |
Chakster, if by VdH, you mean Van den Hul: I have been sending my cartridges to him for 25 years minimum. Iām a ānormalā person (if I put aside the fact that Iām an audiophile) and I speak to people there, get emails back and forth, and he is less expensive than Soundsmith by a country mile.Ā Soundsmith is 25 minutes down the Hudson River from me. It would be much easier and cause much less anxiety if I could simply drive my koetsu onyx over to him rather than worry about what Fedex or the USPS may do to my cartridge in transit. But VdH is less than half as expensive as Soundsmith, and thatās including the cost of shipping across the pond and back.Ā I had an experience with Soundsmith a few years back. Two soldered wires in my Beard P505 preamp came loose during my move from NYC to the Hudson Valley. I thought Iād bring it to Soundsmith to fix it. But they wanted $600 up front just to ādiagnoseā the preamp. I said āf#@^ this s^Ā„*ā, I went out and got a soldering iron and did it myself. |
Iām finding this discussion to be rather useless, and therefore, exhausting. Do we have any measurable data or blind studies that show that any of this matters? Buy a cartridge that is good enough (any Koetsu, my personal preference, will do), that is compatible with your system sit back and enjoy the music. |
The only reason "to fix" Technics P100 mk4 cartridge is softened suspension and the only reason to justify a complete rebuild is to claim that "new cantilever is better" (of course). A working sample with a perfect suspension is almost impossible to find, so the buyer have no chance to hear the potential of this cartridge and must proceed with rebuild (new cantilever/stylus combo and new suspension) or stop using this cartridge after all because of the full collapse of the damper. One problem with rebuild: no one will do that, in the past it was VdH (the most expensive service). Normal people canāt contact Vdh directly like they can contact SoundSmith directly (who will refuse this job with this particular cart). Anyway, if someone can hear a resonance of the cantilever by ears I am happy for this person, he has a perfect hearing abilities. The rest is just academic research for those who interested. |
Dear @doverĀ : What you did not mentuioned yet is that the Sumiko Talisman ( all 3 models ) are truly good quality performers. I was not aware that were a Sony design/builder in those old times. I still own two of them and really like me. I don't know if the 88D is a yoke less design because the Talisman it's a yoke less that they patented as Direct Field Focus that " eliminates unnecessary yokes and pole pieces ". The cartridge is a small one but a big quality performer and even that the models have different build material cantilever and stylus tip all have the same compliance and same cartridge weigth ( 6.3gr. ) The cantilevers are: aluminum/magnesium alloy, boron and sapphire. . Certainly these Talisman are not ordinary LOMC cartridges. @intactaudioĀ Ā ""Ā A few years back when one of the two boron rod manufactures in Japan closed its doors overnight there was a worldwide shortage of boron cantilevers.Ā Boron rod eventually came back on the scene and is my current favorite.Ā " If I remember due to that " even T JC took precaution and I understand that he bougth boron for his designs. Btw, hollow boron is way more resonant that a solid/rod boron. I'm not just talking but at least other 2 gentlemans experienced that when our EPC 100C MK4 were fixed with solid boron instead the original tube.Ā The most critical/crucial issue on cantilever/stylus is to find out the less resonant one and here the cantilever can " speaks " for it self. R. |
@intactaudioĀ Dovers only complaint seems to be centered on the visual look opposed to the actual quality / strength of the junction and I do not consider that alone to be a valid judgement of quality. Actually I have on hand both the original Sumiko Talisman S sapphire cantileverĀ with nude mounted line contact and also another Taslisman S retipped by the original Garrott Bros with a Namiki microscanner sylus in the original sapphire tube cantilever. In a direct comparison the original is cleaner, more precise across the range. The Garrott retipped Talisman with microscanner has a fuller midrange, perhaps a little more evolved, but overall it is not as crisp as the orignal - the original is better. Interestingly I pulled out the Talisman paperwork and Sumiko describes it at follows "line contact stylus as above, laser mounted so that cantilever and stylus act as though they'd been shaped from a single diamond crystal." Remember this cartridge was a Sumiko badged Sony Soundtech design, so clearly they focussed on the rigidity of the stylus/cantilever joint. |
Broken Picture Link From Above showing new vs. vintage mounts. Not to go too far off topic but why isn't boron tubing still available?Ā Obviously Namiki can deal with zirconia tube so the boron tube if available shouldn't be a stretch today.Ā A few years back when one of the two boron rod manufactures in Japan closed its doors overnight there was a worldwide shortage of boron cantilevers.Ā Jico turned to sapphire for their SAS and Namiki was willing to try different materials.Ā Boron rod eventually came back on the scene and is my current favorite. dave |
Thanks Frogman, Always a pleasure to see your participation and comments š And I think you've nailed the 'protuberance'....š Makes sense knowing the brittleness and expense of diamond as a cantilever material. I wonder if the new modern LOMC cartridges with diamond cantilevers have something similar to limit deflection? |
Interesting discussion as always, Halcro. Re the āprotuberanceā: It appears to me that the protuberance is intended to keep the cantilever from moving too far in the downward direction. Perhaps to avoid putting excessive stress on the suspension (?); particularly if the cartridge were set up with aggressive positive VTA or accidental dropping of the tonearm. Beautiful looking (little) beast! |
There is no image on your link, Dave. Maybe you can re-attach it. I have modern cartridges with Boron Rod (Phasemation for example) and I took some nice picture using my macro lens, so I know the method. Some of my favorite MC cartridges are low compliance with aluminum cantilever (FR-7f, FR-7fz, Miyabi Standard, Miyabi MCA ... just to name a few). But my favorite MM are often with Beryllium Pipe or Boron Pipe and I believe this is critical for high frequency extention to have a low moving mass and high compliance. Pipe is always lighter than Rod so the moving mass is lighter with Boron Pipe (or Beryllium pipe). Audio-Technica made gold-plated pipes, after Beryllium was restricted they could only continue with Boron Pipe, but not anymore!Ā |
Chakster, I am only trying to address your statement that i loosely interpret as 'they do not mount diamonds like they used to'.Ā Here are the pictures of your historical examples along side current offerings from Namiki and I do not see any appreciable difference.Ā Can you explain how they differ? You will get no argument from me about materials that are no longer available as being 'better' or that Fritz Gyger offers options with just an adhesion bond (as does Namiki with their Microridge).Ā I also understand the uniqueness of the XL88. I just take issue with the thought that the heyday of the diamond cantilever junction is long past. dave |
Dear @best-grooveĀ @intactaudioĀ : Today and in the past ( too. ) I don't know how many cartridge buyers check how the stylus tip is atached to the cantilever beforeĀ buy that cartridge. Maybe not one because who cares about ! !. Like in other kind of industries and in different times the manufacturers take the build parts that are available in that time in the market and that goes with the quality level they are looking for at an specific price. I don't know you or other of the gentlemans in this thread but what I buy is a cartridge ( not a cantilever. ) and I don't care about that " no sense/stupid " stylus tip/cantilever issue . Just imagine a Lyra Etna SL where a buyer decides not to buy it because the cantilever is solid and not a pipe ! ! go figure ! !Ā As I said that is an STUPIDITY and with all respect to all of you ( me included. ) is stupid to follow arguing about....but......... R. |
Your argument seems to be that boron pipe is no longer available. I agree. Boron Pipe is lighter than Boron Rod, laser mounted stylus tip on Boron pipe is also lighter, the moving mass is lighter and this is important for a high-end cartridge. It is extremely important for MM or MI cartridges and their high frequency reproduction.Ā Ceramic Pipe cantilever from Grace is no longer availabe, that was one of the rarest cantilever ever!Ā Beryllium Pipe from Audio-Technica is not available, it was Gold-Plated.Ā Ā Beryllium cantilever from Victor is no longer available and it was quite unusual, look at the stylus.Ā Also look at Titanium Pipe from Victor.Ā The rest of your argument makes no sense. So you ignored my point about Ortofon and SoundSmith cantilever systems with the diamond mounted not under the cantilever, but in front of the cantilever rod?Ā If you are saying nobody nude mounts like your boron pipe example, namiki does it with zirconium tube. Zicronia pipe is nowhere near Boron Pipe properties. My thread about Zirconia Pipe CantileverĀ is on audiogon since 2020 and people know nothing about this type of cantilever. Do you have any cartridge with Zirconia cantilever?Ā I think titanium pipe may be still available, I'm not sure.Ā
The diamond cantilever and stylus mentioned in this thread by OP is cut from one piece of diamond, this is unique method, no longer available.Ā Sapphire or Ruby from Namiki are OK (not identical to old Sapphire or Ruby though). But look at SoundSmith Ruby is you want to see something completely different from anything else.Ā Ā Enough said, when we discuss cantilevers I always think that people have no memory at all, it's been said so many times on audiogon.Ā |
Modern adhesives are very strong and light. It is easier to align the stylus and keep it aligned while the glue is set by UV With the gluing system without embed as indicated by Chakster, it is necessary to be very careful in cleaning the stylus with the appropriate cleaning liquids; there is a serious danger of unglue the stylus from the cantilever. |
