MSB Diamond DAC V

Maybe my ongoing experience with the Select (the current top of the line) with dual power base can help. I’ve had it along with another top-end DAC (Ideon Absolute) at home on evaluation for about a month now.

The MSB is beautifully engineered, easy to set up & use. I am using my local music library thru a MUSICHI player & either a BFA integrated or an SL Kraft class A amp with Borbely Ref pre. Proac speakers. I listen mostly to classical, but in this instance mixed in lots of blues, jazz, and rock. Wherever poss I listen to hi-res files.
The overall effect I’ve had is of loss of frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum. Indeed in the low end, I seem to be missing an octave or so (may be aggravated by the lack of higher frequencies?). There is a euphonic bloom in the lower midrange and the mids are very pleasantly forward, but I lack three-dimensionality and detail in the soundstage, and dynamic punch. A full orchestra sounds somewhat veiled

I have tried changing cables & such & am still working on it; adding a signal reclocker / reviver improved things.
Work in progress, I suppose—or I just can’t get used to the "ladder" sound.
Good luck!

Ouch, totally not what I was looking for. I listen to a broad range of music minus Classical, Country, and Rap. All else is fair game and my next Dac must play well in that arena as well as coexisting wit either solid state our tube.

Thank you for your input.

For the price I would ask to see measurements on it. What's the SINAD? Intermodulation distortion? Jitter noise? Linearity? What you're describing is typical "ladder dac" high frequency roll off and distortion. I would expect that in a cheap R2R implementation not something at this price.

Try a Mola Mola Tambaqui Dac 

https://www.mola-mola.nl/tambaqui.php

Have you reached out to Vince at MSB ?

blumartini OP
What i can expect from the MSB Diamond DAC V.

Real transparent, dynamic, glare free musical presentation, with great boogie factor. This is what R2R dac’s can do when designed right and used direct into amp/s.
They don’t try to soften everything to make the bad recordings more listenable at the expense of the good recordings like Delta Sigma dacs do.

Cheers George

@tomic601 

Yes, I did. 

Spoke to Fred at Lampizator and he says that the Big 7 is the way to go. Ballanced, volume control direct to the amp and call it a day. Its a tempting proposition but afraid it won’t be the Pacific and the other drawback is i love ethernet.

@gregm 

Thank you for that input. Totally not what I would want to be surprised with hence the question to you guys for real answers before I waste time and money. 

Thanks again. 

I am surprised by the lower octave- nothing I have experienced in listening to 3-4 MSB DAC reflects a lack of punch and drive in lower registers I will say as an Aesthetix Pandora Sig and Lampizator owner, I prefer them. I have heard a Pacific in a top flight system - certainly very very nice :-) sounds like maybe the MSB might be due for a checkup ????
you are doing right by process

@tomic601

Please describe your experience as i am shocked that a piece that cost that kind of money would have holes in the upper and lower octaves. Its not easy grabbing a used piece like this demoing it so that mention definitely raises a flag.

Regarding the MSB Diamond DAC V, paired with a pair of M500 Mono Amplifiers.
I actually was not there to hear it, but a couple of customers came into the speaker factory I used to work at, and brought in the combination I listed above. They were connected to a pair of Lenehan ML5 speakers.
Michael my boss, told me it was the best sound he'd ever heard. Period.

I did hear a Grandinote streamer DAC and power amplifier, and it was probably the best combination with Lenehan speakers I personally had heard, this was after the MSB session. Mike said the MSB was still the best.
I don't know if it's true, but the clock in the MSB is from a cruise missile?

@blumartini my comments were based on user who posted it was missing bottom octave which is 100% contrary to any listening I have had w MSB. 

my comments were based on user who posted it was missing bottom octave which is 100% contrary to any listening I have had w MSB.

+1
Same here, MSB's R2R dacs have an awesome tight bottom end that needs to be dug out of the floor and your guts it’s that low, but only when it’s presented in the music.
Obviously that owner has a serious defect somewhere in the chain, if he says that the bottom octave is missing, and he’s blaming the wrong thing unless it’s faulty.

Cheers George

Same here, MSB's R2R dacs have an awesome tight bottom end that needs to be dug out of the floor and your guts it’s that low, but only when it’s presented in the music.
Obviously that owner has a serious defect somewhere in the chain, if he says that the bottom octave is missing, and he’s blaming the wrong thing unless it’s faulty.

Sorry, but no.
My MSB units are beautiful condition & checked by the dealer. Nor is it a  problem (if problem it is) elsewhere in the system -- such as my system is, of course -- because I do get  " an awesome tight bottom end that needs to be dug out of the floor and your guts it’s that low " using the other DAC on loan.

To be clear, the Select is a serious product and it plays music well.
It's just that in my environment, the other machine outperforms it by a wide margin. Regards

@gregm 

Thank you for your input on the select Dac and as we all know not all things play equal together no matter how much money they cost. Not to get off topic on system matching a whole other world of issues of course and a subject that can go on forever and ever with so many variables involved.
Again thank you for your input and my next question is what Dac is that you now have on loan and what is it doing differently in your system?
Lastly my original curiosity was about the MSB Diamond V Dac with Diamond Power Base and renderer. My goal was to eliminate the preamp in the chain and get as much tube like sweetness as I can yet retaining the dynamic swings, bass punch and slam that solid state delivers "Best of Both Worlds" so to speak. 

Thanks again for your input.

blumartini OP
My goal was to eliminate the preamp in the chain and get as much tube like sweetness as I can yet retaining the dynamic swings, bass punch and slam that solid state delivers "Best of Both Worlds" so to speak.

Direct from an MSB R2R using it’s volume control will do exactly that, that’s how mine is run, if the rest of your system is up to it.
But like any source that is very detailed, very dynamic and very transparent, like the MSB range of R2R dacs, if the rest (amp/speakers) are not up to it, then the MSB will show them up.
If your system need taming then you should go to Delta Sigma (dsd) based dacs which are kinder, and not as forcefull with their dynamics, but to me they a bit of a yawn, and don't keep me interested for long. 

Cheers George

@georgehifi
Thank you for getting back to me. I guess its best to zero in a bit. My current system amp is the just Released Plinius A-150 150 wpc class A switchable to A/B and Speakers are Focal Sopra #2. My room size for this setup is 12 wide by 10 deep. My music varies from Acoustic Vocals, Blues, Jaz, Rock, to Contemporary to Electronic Techno. I currently have a NAS ethernet setup playing through P.S Audio Perfectwave Directstream FPGA Dac connected to a P.S. Audio BHK Preamp . My goal was to maximize on the Dac and get rid of the preamp in the chain.
Must admit not too bad all things considered just trying to up the anti since the source is is where it all begins the rest can evolve as it constantly does from time to time. Little stuck as I really want to to do Dac direct to amp and yet have that preaml magic.

My other options where MSB Discrete, DCS Bartok or Lumin X1 as a downstream to the MSB Diamond Dac V solution.

Thanks for you help.

"If your system need taming then you should go to Delta Sigma (dsd) based dacs which are kinder, and not as forcefull with their dynamics, but to me they a bit of a yawn, and don't keep me interested for long. "

This might be your experience with certain DACs but as a generalization is pure nonsense. There are R2R DACs out there that cost few hundred dollars that don't even come close in sound quality to high end well implemented Delta Sigma designs. There is a lot more in the DAC (design) than the digital conversion stage, e.g., power supply, isolation, analog output stage, etc., etc. Keep the focus on what the OP asked not your baseless generalization.

Once you've reached transparency in DACs, your noise floor is ridiculously low which even some inexpensive DACs will do you're paying for features. Some DACs add coloration with tubes, filters etc.. which negates transparency but some people like that nothing wrong with it. If you want to hear what's on the recording then transparency is what you're after and once that is achieved the DAC is one of the less important components in the system. Your speakers will have way more distortion than even inexpensive DACs that are considered transparent. Some R2R DACs will be transparent,  I would assume the MSB is considering the cost but after what gregm said I would ask them for some measurements. Other than That I wouldn't worry to much just get the DAC or Streamer/DAC that has the features you want. 

Put the Wadax da converter on your list.
The only way of achieving lifelike dynamic transients with real harmonics and ultimate musicality is through noise rejection. Mechanical isolation, cables, and grounding. Took me 30 years of swapping gear to find out. Keep your Plinius pure class A amp, part of the equation.

@kalali

Ok, so to your point on the DSD Streamer/Player Network Dac out there which one will best fit my criteria. I am looking for a Preamp Dac that will maximize my current 12 wide by 10 deep room . My music varies from Acoustic Vocals, Blues, Jaz, Rock, to Contemporary to Electronic Techno.  I am using an Ethernet Nas great for noise reduction for my ripped SACD/DSD Collection and also playing Tidal and or Quobuz, Spotify Connect would be nice as a last resort.

Thanks!

A question to the Dac Community:

Some have argued to put my money into a better speaker vs a Dac some say that the source is where it all begins and the speakers where they end. On my end considering my room size 12 W x 10 D all around sound and room placement went to Focal Sopra #2 however I do Love Dynaudio Confidence Speakers and may give them a shot in the near future. As for the amplifier I am set With the Plinius A150 Refrence Class A150 WPC Switchable to Class A/B.

Now for my Dac consideration:
Direct to Amp no preamp! streaming needs Sound Quality is #1 for the type of music that I listen to Acoustic Vocals, Blues, Jaz, Rock, to Contemporary to Electronic Techno, Alternative. I do use Tidal, Quobuz, Spotify if available and Media Server Ethernet / NAS Capable a major plus.

My Ultimate Goal is to Best by a noticeable margin my current below setup.

My Current setup:
PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp.
PS Audio Directsteram With Bridge ll

My Choices:
MSB Diamond Dac V
Lampizator Big 7 MKll
DCS Bartok
Lumin X1

Thanks for helping me zero this in :)

There are R2R DACs out there that cost few hundred dollars that don’t even come close in sound quality to high end well implemented Delta Sigma designs.

Don’t you generalize, of course there are, I’m not talking about the cheap R2R junk, that’s when the Delta Sigma’s are the better offerings. But when it’s comes down to the R2R talked about, DS is then a bit of a yawn to listen to in comparison.

@georgehifi 

What are you recommending?

The MSB 

So you believe that MSB Diamond Dac V  is the pick of the litter over all the others . It was my gut feeling also after everything  read and heard from others.

So tough spending that kind of money 💰 and not having the opportunity to hear it 1st. hand. Oh well, guess I will have to go with my gut and advise from all here in the community.

Now its a matter finding a deal on a Dac V with Diamond Power Base and Render. Keep me posted if anyone out there knows where I can grab one ;)

Thanks!

So you believe that MSB Diamond Dac V is the pick of the litter over all the others .

I'm sure the more expensive one are even better, but you've got your sites set on this one, and I say to you you can't go wrong, compared to others mentioned so far.

Cheers George 

I say to you you can’t go wrong, compared to others mentioned so far

It’s an easy thing to say when you are spending someone else’s money.

Personally, I wouldn’t be buying anything at that price level without an audition, and I certainly wouldn’t be buying it on George’s advice.

The MSB gets mixed reports - some very positive, and others suggesting it sounds rolled off, and lacking dynamics. I’ve never heard an MSB dac but the two R2R dacs I have owned - a Metrum Pavane and Holo Spring - have both suffered from high frequency roll off and a lack of dynamic impact. At its price, I would expect the MSB to be much better, but I wouldn’t take the gamble that it was without hearing it myself.

The only DAC on the list I have heard is the Lumin X1, and I own one. I prefer it to the Chord DAVE/Blu 2 which preceded it and it is vastly better than the two R2R dacs I mentioned. The Bartok is also getting very positive reviews and if you have the chance to hear one you should definitely do so.

Excellent, thanks for the Nod.

P.S. The MSB Diamond Dac V was the most expensive of the group.

Vince would most probably send you one... hence my ?????

@gregm  what is the other DAC ? I have no reason to doubt and would love to learn

blumartini OP

I was just told the new MSB Premier dac with PB is even better sounding than the Diamond V with PB and it’s cheaper as well.
https://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/premier-dac-features/

Where you are you can call Suncoast MSB dealer in Florida.

Vince would most probably send you one... hence my ?????

Or even give Vince Galbo a bell at MSB see what he can do for you.

Cheers George

I would say look at the dCS Bartok first, and I am a MSB owner......

For the features it has, ease of use, fantastic sound quality, that can be adjusted with filter settings, dCS known track record for meaningful software updates, can be upgraded via Rossini Clock latter, and the superb OS for streaming is simply second to none for the price.

It makes sense to listen to those above that have experience living with the MSB before anyone else who has not actually owned the units you are considering.

@tomic601

@gregm what is the other DAC ? I have no reason to doubt and would love to learn

He mentioned the Ideon Absolute in his first post.

"Personally, I wouldn’t be buying anything at that price level without an audition..."

Best advice so far.

All well taken. I’ve heard the Bartok is a must listen to and very interesting that no one mentioned Lumin X1? I am trying to best my ps audio perfectwave with bridge 2 and drop the preamp. Hate to do a lateral. I’m also circling the Gryphon Diablo 300 to mate the dac with and call it a day.

Thoughts

I own a loaded Diamond Dac IV with a Diamond Power Base. Also,Signature Data CD Transport with Signature Transport Power Base.I also have the MSB M204 amps.I can tell you for certain there are no missing frequencies on the bottom or top end. So happy with its performance, wish I could afford the new stuff. Even if I could, being in Canada, the exchange alone would kill me.

@blumartini

Again thank you for your input and my next question is what Dac is that you now have on loan and what is it doing differently in your system?

Sorry it took me so long to respond -- the other machine is an Ideon Audio "Absolute" (latest edition, I’m told).
Differences: the Absolute has much more dynamic impact, it presents a more 3dimensional soundstage with better - holographic - imaging, I get clearer and lower bass notes and more upper-end extension and significantly more clarity on low-level detail.

Subjectively, more naturalness (for example, it’s easy to distinguish between tambourine, hi-hat, snare, & cymbals).
What hits me immediately every time I switch between the two is the difference in bass energy and upper-end extension the Absolute produces --

The impression I get is the Absolute somehow extracts and presents me with much more info from the source file and outputs more energy.
Regards and good luck!

@gregm  

Ideon Audio Absolute Dac definitely has my attention How much is it?
P.S. They are not easy to find info on other than there website. I also circling the Lampinzator they left a unforgettable impression  with there Pacific Dac.

@blumartini
Hi, I just checked their site and the US importer is Audioskies. In Europe, it costs around 30k euro, so I'm guessing it's under 40k in the US (not peanuts, but a lot less than my MSB)
Regards

@gregm 

looks amazing on paper, but as an exotic and unknown here in the U.S. it’s a bit risky interims of resell ability and depreciation. DACs have always been a fear of mine due to the Dac a Day concept. Everyone comes out with a new and improved best thing since slice bread every year while the buyers take a major loss when trying to upgrade to the next greatest Dac. I am going to look for either a Lampi Pacific or a MSB Diamond Dac V with all the goodies on the secondary market. 

Thanks for your help, it certainly has massive technical appeal. Keep us posted:)

There's a few MSB's here on Audiogon, a very nice very nice Platinum IV Plus for $6.5k  https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=msb

Cheers George

George, you have what pretty much amounts to preferential obsessions with certain gear, which is fine.  But why do you try to oversell your preferences to others, my acknowledging that you have no financial interests?  Why not let them decide based on their own observations?

Jetter
What’s with you?? anti MSB, because that’s what it looks like.

READ!!! He (the OP) said

"I am going to look for either a Lampi Pacific or a MSB Diamond Dac V with all the goodies on the secondary market."

I’m showing him a good one on Audiogon. Butt out!!

Correct, I have no financial interests as I’m also in Australia and definitely NOT an MSB agent. But I do believe they are the front runners and always have been of R2R discrete dacs, others follow, and yes I do own one.

And here it is again for the OP https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=msb just to get up your nose once more.

$40k euro builds a fairly impressive DCS stack. @gregm  thank you for your well considered reply on sonics. I looked and build quality seems very high indeed. I own an Aesthetix and a Lampi, will at some point replace the Aesthetix 

fun, enjoy the music gents..