More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.
An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.
I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.
After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.
I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.
Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.
The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.
I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.
However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.
IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.
I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.
Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.
I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.
Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.
A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.
So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?
Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?
Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.
More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.
To put it more simply:
No amp will exactly double all the way, anyone who advertises this is stretching the truth. Ones that can come close to doubling (usually good bi-polar output amps) all the way to 2ohms, can push good current into hard to drive speaker EG: most Wilsons especially Alexia ( .9ohm epdr in the bass) and many other brands.
This is however not an indication of good sound quality, but your half the way there with a "very" important part of the equation to get it, but your half the way there with a very important part of the equation to get it. It's up to you then to sort these out with best one sound wise, as you taken care of the drive (current) factor.
If a speaker is underpowered it won't perform at its best and may clip. You need to find an amp that outputs the power your speaker needs and has soul.
Sorry it's not the full picture, nowhere does he talk about current into low impedance's, he's only interested in watts and spl. He's only half the way there by talking about efficiency, not impedance loading and difficulty to drive into low impedance loads.
The concern is how do you determine what amount of power is appropriate in advance?
And or, at what point should you become concerned with an amps power rating, if you know the speakers numbers, placement, and distance to the LP ?
As I understand it, on paper, a 91db sensitive speaker should develop 91db SPL at one meter (about 40 inches) with one full watt without room reinforcement.
At 2M with one watt the same speaker SPL halves so power must double. Add one more meter, and at 3m the power must double again to yield the same SPL developed at one meter.
Thus… at 3M a 91db sens speaker needs 4 watts. At one set freq. more if most of the bandwidth is being engaged.
Yes? No?
In my own case, the LP should never be more than 10 – 12 feet away from the front baffles.
My guess is 200wpc is plenty for generating aforementioned SPLs. Even a 120wpc amp would work for that matter. I think.
Every speaker I’ve looked into with interest have sens of 88db or higher. Most are 89 – 91db.
Using an older Radio Shak digital spl meter on speakers of 93db from a distance of 9ft from their baffles setting the meter to average peaks, a 93 to 96DB range was enormously loud. Irritatingly loud IMO. Maybe one song only kind of loud if I felt the need to Pour Some sugar on it, or dig a Whole Lot Of Rosie! Once.
So clipping looks like the bigger deal. That and providing the speakers enough power to keep the drivers on pace firmly.
Amps I’m liking a lot in no real order are Gryphon coliseum ypsalon Alieus, Constellation Imagine series, PSA BHK monos, Bermister (not the biggest one) BAT 655, and Master Sound classic
I might well be worrying about nothing. Although at these prices worry seems a necessary evil.
Thus… at 3M a 91db sens speaker needs 4 watts. At one set freq. more if most of the bandwidth is being engaged.
Yes? No?
In my own case, the LP should never be more than 10 – 12 feet away from the front baffles.
My guess is 200wpc is plenty for generating aforementioned SPLs. Even a 120wpc amp would work for that matter. I think.
Every speaker I’ve looked into with interest have sens of 88db or higher. Most are 89 – 91db.
If your after party levels, and quality doesn’t come into it then your thinking correct.
Think about this, an old pair of Mark Levinson ML2 mono blocks can almost do these figures, flat out it can only do 25w into 8ohms 50w, but into 4ohms 100w, into 2ohms 200w, and 400w intoi 1ohm, this is an amp that can do very good current.
These ML2 amps on hard to drive impedance loads, that are still high efficiency >90db or whatever, will sound better at normal loud listening (not party levels) than a 1000w into 8ohm amp that can’t double on it’s way down 4ohm 2ohm 1ohm ect.
We really need to know which speakers you want to power before we can give opinions on which amps would be well suited for them. There are too many variables to give opinions on amps and speakers in general.
We really need to know which speakers you want to power before we can give opinions on which amps would be well suited for them. There are too many variables to give opinions on amps and speakers in general.
Exactly what I was trying to get across, the loading of the speakers impedance is just as if not more important than the wattage, but he and others seem obsessed by a wattage fetish.
Thanks for the concerned thoughtful input so far. It is sincerely appreciated.
Sorry. My bad.
I’ve been speaking in general terms as no actual decision has been made yet as to which amps or which speakers are getting married.
Given the fact I’m doing a lot of research and a goodly bit of speculating, and am flexible on which ones to pair up, I felt only certain parameters were necessary for determining the range of suitable power for a given load and specific speaker brands & models were not concerns
I listed the amps which intrigue me. All of which push at least 200wpc into 8 ohm loads. Most will at least say they’ll double with imp halving except BAT & ypsalon. Some offer 300wpc at 8 ohms.
Gryphon lands outside normal amp criterium with their dual mono amps base model pushing 150 @ 8, hteir middle unit is 160wpc @ 8; and their top model which is likely well off the table for me, is 175 wpc @ 8, and all double into 4, and then again into 2, and Gryphon boasts doubling continues into 0.5 ohms at 5K wpc in their top unit. All models offer Class A operation in 3 variable stages of 25, 50, or fully Class A, more or less in each amp, respectively. Slight variations occur depending upon model or better said, $$$$$..
Curiously, the two I envy most have reported similarities in their power outputs into 4 ohms at 320wpc. Ypsalon Alieus and Gryphon Coloseum. However, ONLY Gryphon is actually doubling as Impedance halves. Ypsalon does not. As well, both have more than substantial banks of reserves in their Cap storage. More than substantial.
In no real order the speaker short list is: KEF blades, I & II, either or. VA Listz or Music either or. Wilson Sabrinas, Sashas, either or TAD Evolution one
Longshots if found used: Magico S5 latest ver? Lanch 7? Wilson XLS ? YG ? Eggelston Ivy, andrea II & III.
Of current production, I bleive all are 4 ohms. TAD & Wilson are lowest sens at 88 & 87db, respectively. ONLY Egg Andreas are above the 4 ohm barrier. The balance of the lot are 90 – 91db.
Party level listening is NOT my gig. As said. Maybe a song or two now and then. Usually I’m reasonably sane and do not push things I’ve paid a lot of money for unless you can pour fuel into them… and those days, sadly are well behind me..
LP is usually set in an equilateral triangle and speakers are normally 8ft. apart, give or take a few inches. This will change but not quickly so it would be a decent rule of thumb..
I don't know about the Music, but I've heard the Liszt driven by Ayre's 60-watt integrated, and they sounded great. Even better, needless, to say, with Ayre's 125 watt integrated, which is what my local dealer likes to use to demo those speakers.
I looked at the Stereophile measurements (which I do trust, unlike the subjective reviews), and while pretty bad for a full-range dynamic speaker, I only see a drop to 2 Ohms in the bass, with a moderate phase angle:
From my real world experience, when I'm looking at the VU meters of my 250 watt/ch power amp, even at loud listening levels, they stay around the 2.5 watts to 25 watts range (MacIntosh MC 252), hovering more towards the 2.5 watt gradation. But my first amplifier, the Peachtree Decco, a 50/channel amp, had a lot of trouble driving my Dynaudio speakers (86db). The Dyns were much less efficient than my current Legacy speakers, but still, the Decco was struggling to drive them, so obviously it wasn't really able to output clean 50 watts peaks, or even constant 30 to 40 watts as that should have been enough to drive the Dyns in my smallish room to loud levels. That's why the stated specs do not matter that much, and how the amplifier is built matter a lot, IMO.
Nearly all nice analogue meters grossly underestimate peak power, however. The meters on the amplifier that Alan Shaw used in the Netherlands were digital peak level meters. But of course, a lot depends on the combination of speaker efficiency, room size, desired level and musical genre.
EPDR is short for "Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance"
It’s the combination of the speakers low impedance and it’s percentage of - phase angle at points of the frequency range. Which can give a far low impedance as seen by the amp, than just the impedance measurements alone.
It’s explained here on page 27 in the pdf from HFN Lab Test done on the Wilson Alexia (the page is slow to load give it time or refresh it)
Peachtree Decco, a 50/channel amp, had a lot of trouble driving my Dynaudio speakers (86db). The Dyns were much less efficient than my current Legacy speakers, but still, the Decco was struggling to drive them, so obviously it wasn't really able to output clean 50 watts peaks, or even constant 30 to 40 watts as that should have been enough to drive the Dyns in my smallish room to loud levels.
Classic example is your Peach Tree at 50w, if it had "good current" (almost doubling wattage for each halving of impedance) it would have been able to drive the Dynaudios easy, as the Mark Levinson ML2 monoblocks would have easily done it also with great sound (maybe not party levels).
@georgehifi Your input is well received. Thanks much. I’ve included a range of amps and speakers as well as approximate physical setup of the speakers in the room, so I hope this is sufficient info to help you see this issue more clearly.
Looking forward to your input. Thanks. = = = = = =
@twoleftears
Thanks much. I recall your input on the Listz and appreciated it immensely.
I feel many speakers can be run by any number of amps, although better built and or more powerful ones will do a better job.
Of course, the heart or soul of what ever more powerful amp is a large question mark one’s preffs must get in tune with before it goes home with you.
I’m inclined to believe the Ayre INT is a nice unit, my thinking is that a gbit better amp, meaning more power and more prolific construction ought to show itself as a nicer arrangement. Or I sure hope so.
The Listz for me are sort of an afterthought and not the primary tartget. Albeit I’ve been around long enough to know anything can happen depending on how the storms of life get to tossing one along. = = = = = = =
My instincts say any amp I’ve listed in this thread will do just fine with any speaker also listed in this thread. But the pedantic obsessive aspect of me says, “make sure!! Don’t want any negative surprises.”
The one thing that keeps pestering me is when looking into amps which boast huge output power ratings as their standard character, like 500 or 600wpc amps, I’ve yet to find one which sounds bad. Almost regardless the setup. Big krell, big Macs, Lynns, MLs, even a big old Conrad Johnson tube amp was nice listening.
The way each amp handled the paired speakers was fairly evident too in that the sound was tight. Quick. Clean.
Harmonics and dynamics differ from one setup to another but the speed and pacing were taught and pronounced. IMO those attributes are the result of power.
I’ve only heard Mr. Hanson’s 400wpc monos, nothing else. Did not dig the setup but, those quick, claen, precise notes were evident there too. I did not know the power rating of the Ayre monos until I asked later, during the audition that they were 400 watt amps. I did feel from the onset these wre stronger than the usual 150 – 250 wpc amps I had been listening to earlier.
This is my ‘take’ on pairing speakers with SS amps. Be it right or wrong.
With tube amps, I’d lean more onto the loudspeaker’s tech and construction being kinder towards power in a more minimalistic view. Higher Eff & higher IMP.
With multiple cone drivers and low IMPs I get a different sense of direction if I feel I want to fuel them with SS amps.
Of course, money plays a SIGNIFICANT role. Always. At least to the point wherein I can rationalize it to myself. Hahahah.
In no real order the speaker short list is: KEF blades, I & II, either or. VA Listz or Music either or. Wilson Sabrinas, Sashas, either or TAD Evolution one
Longshots if found used: Magico S5 latest ver? Lanch 7? Wilson XLS ? YG ? Eggelston Ivy, andrea II & III.
Most of these speakers (maybe not the Tad’s) without spending time to research their impedance v -phase angle graphs (EPDR), would want an amp that could deliver good (doubling wattage) current into low impedance’s, no amount of watts will make up for this if the amp doesn’t have that current ability.
Don’t just talk watts, talk about the watts be able to double for each halving of impedance as well.
BTW:
blindjim
There are two threads going at once on this one subject in different headings, ask the mods to get rid of one them.
@georgehifi RE – duplicate threads I will only post going forward to the TECH TALK thread to confuse the current situation less. I would advise others do similarly.
Yes. I saw that. Dunno how it happened. Admin must have switched it from amps to tech talk without merging the posts into the latter one and deleting the former.
Getting in touch with admin has some substantial hoops for me to leap thru navigationwise. Sorry.
I’ve no control there… if anyone would care to ask them to merge these conversations into one TECH TALK thread it would be fine by me.
The way each amp handled the paired speakers was fairly evident too in that the sound was tight. Quick. Clean.
Harmonics
and dynamics differ from one setup to another but the speed and pacing
were taught and pronounced. IMO those attributes are the result of
power.
Actually that is the result of bandwidth. Output impedance can play a role in how 'tight' the bass is (but quite often, 'tight' also implies that the speaker is over-damped in the bass; while that gets you 'tight' bass it also means there is a loss of definition as the woofer is not allowed to move as far as it should).
The main thing you are looking for with your speakers is the ability of the amp to act as a voltage source. This is the idea that the amp can put out the same voltage regardless of the load impedance.
The thing is, the amp does not have to double power as impedance is cut in half at **full power**. This is why the CJ tube amp worked on the speakers- it does not have a lot of so-called 'current' yet could do the job just fine.
IOW, there are a lot more amps available to you that will do the job.
This is why the CJ tube amp worked on the speakers- it does not have a lot of so-called 'current' yet could do the job just fine.
Just picking one I had on file from his list Al, the Magico S5, a tube amp "may" work and sound ok with this sort of load. But you will not get the best from them until you hear it driven properly with a solid state amp that can drive this sort of load with current.
There are likely others in that list that are even harder to drive.
But you will not get the best from them until you hear it driven
properly with a solid state amp that can drive this sort of load with
current.
George, maybe you can clear something up because as far as I know, the above statement is outright false. If the amp is making a given power into the load of least impedance, is the current going to be higher with a high current amp as opposed to one that has less current?
is the current going to be higher with a high current amp as opposed to one that has less current?
Given the Magico’s impedance v phase graph, the amp with "ample current" will stay flatter in frequency response than the one that is "current challenged" especially at 50hz where impedance and -phase is at it’s worst.
But what I will ask you Ralph, is one of your production OTL amps going to stay flat in frequency at a reasonable loudness level and envelope of +& - 1,2 or even 3db, into this load without the band-aid use of any external Auto-transformers?? BTW, this is a yes or no question...
The correct answer George, was ’no’: if two amps are making the same power into a given load, then the current is exactly the same. It was a trick question in a way. The trick was knowing Ohm’s law.
Now in this case:
Given the Magico’s impedance v phase graph, the amp with "ample current" will stay flatter in frequency response than the one that is "current challenged" especially at 50hz where impedance and -phase is at it’s worst.
- if the amp can make the power into the worst of the load then how much power will it make into loads that are not as difficult? The answer is ’less’.
So we can see that if a tube amp can make the power needed, it does not have to be a perfect voltage source to still get flat frequency response, as good as any solid state. Its simply has to be good enough to do that.
There is an issue here, the harder you make the amp work, the more distortion it will make. You can see this in the distortion vs frequency specs of all amplifiers. The distortion is audible too- in the form of increased brightness and hardness, caused by higher ordered harmonics to which the ear is keenly sensitive, as it uses them to sense sound pressure.
So a powerhouse amp might be able to drive some insane load, but there isn’t a reason related to high quality sound reproduction to do so. If you want the amp to strut its best, an easy load will have it making less distortion- it will sound more like music.
Regarding our amps, they were designed with intention to work with speakers that do not require feedback of the amp; this is done because a speaker that **does** require that of the amp will inherently never sound like real music- it will always sound like a hifi- maybe a really good one, but still a hifi instead of real music. See Norman Crowhurst, you can download his books from Pete Millet's website http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm
It was a trick question in a way. The trick was knowing Ohm’s law.
Really!!
Regarding our amps, they were designed with intention to work with speakers that do not require feedback of the amp;
In other words easy to drive speakers that are as close as possible to a pure resistive load, which Ralph there are not many good ones, Magies come to mind, not much else of worth, that why you push the Zero Autoformer.
Gryphon top of the line amps will blow to hell all the tubes in all the tube amps Ralph has ever touched. Along with all Classic Audio speakers and Technics DJ turntables. Nothing does power and current like big Gryphons. They don't care about these funny impedance and other problems with speakers. Problem with them might be that the Gryphon may suck in all the electricity available from the power station just to play your music right and leave the entire neighborhood in the dark. What are you waiting for if you want real power ?
Big fan of the Gryphon Antileon EVO , so much so I posted a review of them with some magic Wilsons here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-wilson-alexia-mkii-listening-session BTW inna many tubes suck just as much if not more power than even this Gryphon, because of their heater current, and make you sweat more in summer.
In other words easy to drive speakers that are as close as possible to a
pure resistive load, which Ralph there are not many good ones, Magies
come to mind, not much else of worth, that why you push the Zero
Autoformer.
This statement is false. The most popular speaker with our M-60 was for many years the Merlin VSM which is a 6 ohm non-resistive load. I don't push the ZEROs because of the Maggies (our larger amps have no troubles with them; but many people seem to like the idea of a 60 watt tube amp on Maggies **that** is when I push the ZEROs for Maggies owners), I push them as problem solvers for tube and solid state amps. Its a much larger picture than you want to paint: if it were really that small as you suggest we'd not have been able to be in business for 41 years...
Gryphon top of the line amps will blow to hell all the tubes in all the
tube amps Ralph has ever touched. Along with all Classic Audio speakers
and Technics DJ turntables. Nothing does power and current like big
Gryphons.
The Gryphon amps are excellent! I was in the Gryphon room at CES years ago and witnessed a reviewer threatening the owner of Gryphon that if he didn't give the amp to him for free, it would be a bad review. The Gryphon owner had more ethics than that and it didn't go well; that reviewer pretty well shut down Gryphon sales in the US for over a decade. I admired them as they did amazing extrusions on their heatsinks, supported balanced operation properly and generally built an extremely high quality product.
Not sure how any amplifier blows a set of speakers and a turntable 'all to hell though'- that part of your statement seems nonsensical. Your statement about power **and** current does not make sense either and here's why: if an amp can make a given power into a given load (say 300 watts into 2 ohms) we can determine the current easily enough:
First, Ohm's Law relates voltage, current and resistance R=V/C
From that the power formula derives: 1 watt is equal to 1 volt times 1 amp.
If you state it in terms of resistance
The power formula is Power = (current squared) times resistance.
So plugging in the values: 300 = (current squared) times 2
solving for current squared we get 150, the square root of that is 12.25 amps.
From this I hope that you can see that it does not matter what kind of amp makes that power- the current will be the same; power (wattage) is the result of current and voltage together- current cannot exist without voltage.
You started this Ralph with your second post. Didn’t say you pushed Zero’s because of the Magie’s, just any speaker that are hard to drive. Read a bit more carefully.
What I did ask.
" https://www.stereophile.com/images/217MagS52fig1.jpg But what I will ask you Ralph, is one of your production OTL amps going to stay flat in frequency at a reasonable loudness level and envelope of +& - 1,2 or even 3db, into this load without the band-aid use of any external Auto-transformers (Zero’s)?? BTW, this is a yes or no question..."
BTW: here’s Stereophiles test take on the Merlin VSM " The speaker itself was quite sensitive, at an estimated 88.5dB(B)/2.83V/m, which, in conjunction with its moderate impedance (fig.5), will make it an easy load for the partnering amplifier." As I said " In other words easy to drive speakers that are as close as possible to a pure resistive load,"
This is incredible...A guy (I assume) who quotes articles and magazines to prove a (technical) point is challenging someone who’s been designing, building and selling power amplifiers for a living, on a technical level of all things... Really interesting....
P.S. I like it better when he's pushing Schiit products as the best thing after sliced bread...
Ralph - I sincerely hope these sorts of (nonsensical) debates will not deter you from sharing your wealth of knowledge and experience with the rest of us here. Thank you for all your contributions.
Ralph, have you taken a leave of your sense of humor ? If your amps are as rigid and boring as you are today, who is going to choose them ? Anyway, Gryphon is the power choice, this is as clear as the fact that it won't give you the most sophisticated sound possible. That is for tubes to deliver.
P.S. I like it better when he’s pushing Schiit products as the best thing after sliced bread...
Schiit is probably the best bang for buck on the market, better performance per dollar than that McIntosh blue xmas tree junk you have with autotransformers. I'd stack the Schiit Vidar at $699 up against it on speakers they could both drive easily.
And yes Ralph as inna pointed out, are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others even with similar hard varying loads.
I now have a pair of 99db efficient (allegedly) Klipsch Heresy III speakers that seem to work very well with my silly little 12 watt per side SEP amp. To put this in sophisticated audiophile terms, it can now rip the paint off the ceiling and fry your head. Isn't that what one wants? Also my new Schiit Freya preamp with upgraded tubes (no biggie, simply a set of new Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs until I find something more exotic to play with) sounds real good in this combo….note the amp, preamp, and speakers were all embarrassingly inexpensive, so I shall remain embarrassed. Feel free to mock me….I can take it.
aginst my better judgement, and because I don't want to duplicate posts amongst threads I'll reply here rather than onto the TEC TALK version of this.
well, that and because it just seems right to acknowledge those who took the time to voice thier EXP as it would be rude not to IMHO. = = = = = = =
@atmasphere > ….Bandwidth, not power
Blindjim > for well over a decade now, Ralph, you have been a wealth of information. Now and then no various topics I’ve been under educated in and all of that input has been well received and I am totally grateful for acquiring. Sincerely. Thanks..
Bandwidth. really? Wow. I stand corrected. I had felt via EXP only with the application of low and mid powered amps with various speakers along my way, that the more HP an amp possessed, though perhaps not applied fully, kept the drivers on point better. I found this very true with BW speakers which I had a bunch of models along my early years and then being a member here.
Atmas > There is an issue here, the harder you make the amp work, the more distortion it will make. You can see this in the distortion vs frequency specs of all amplifiers. The distortion is audible too- in the form of increased brightness and hardness, caused by higher ordered harmonics to which the ear is keenly sensitive, as it uses them to sense sound pressure.
Blindjim > now here is where things may become confusing to me.
Almost invariably I’ve noticed in friends outfits, that some were noticeably IMO underpowered as the sound in the mids and bottom end was well, I’ll go with ‘soft’’ or fuzzy. Not to the point of most people’s notice, but to my own appraisal. Again, I came to this revelation by moving up in amp power rating and build quality as time passed so it was actually an incidental observation. Albeit, a valid observation no less.
As well, the mids and top ends previous to the increase and as well improvement to the amp via upgrade, resolved much if not all of the so called ‘brightness’ and or hard (flat) tones.
Indeed the overall presentation became more realistic, better mannered, and musically accurate.
I do hear things somewhat better than many from the lack of sight. Although, I’d say it is more a result of being forced to rely upon it and use it unlike most. It ain’t from being hit with gamma rays or contact with red kryptonite that’s for sure.
However, I’ll acquiesce to your point. Somewhat more now, though controlling the drivers starting and stoping repeatedly seems a consideration for accuracy in recreating any tone purely and IMO was an attribute of the EMF or from the output devices of the amp.
I’ve been mistaken before. Never wrong but now and then, mistaken.. no problem. It doesn’t hurt as much any more.
= = = = =
@georgehifi
Many thanks for your ongoing interest and input. Really. Thanks a lot. = = = = = = = = =
@inna You are a true eye opener with the items you continue to bring to the table as options, choices, alternate paths and or insights. They are obviously ones I’d not have stumbled across alone. Huge thanks for these insights.
I’ll not try to meddle with you and Atmas obvious issue, but I’ve never seen Atmas post anything untoward or include his own products as an alternative path when he infuses his thoughts into a thread.
Perhaps, allowing other people to be other people might be a better tact, but then this is just something I’m obliged to pursue, no one else has to trod that road if they don’t want to.
Thanks Inna. Much appreciation.
= = = = = = = = = = =
@Kalali > Really interesting....
Blindjim > hmmm. It do get that way around here from time to time. Personally I’ve learned a lot here today.
So long as I can learn something new each day it’s a good day. And everybody has something to offer. Always.
Almost invariably I’ve noticed in friends outfits, that some were
noticeably IMO underpowered as the sound in the mids and bottom end was
well, I’ll go with ‘soft’’ or fuzzy. Not to the point of most people’s
notice, but to my own appraisal. Again, I came to this revelation by
moving up in amp power rating and build quality as time passed so it was
actually an incidental observation. Albeit, a valid observation no
less.
@blindjim that description really sounds like the amp clipping- all bets are off at that point.
are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the
Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others
even with similar hard varying loads.
Funny about that- John Giolas had our amps for years- Soundstage thought it was the best system they had ever heard. Going back decades, our amps have worked pretty well on the Wilson speakers. The newer speakers are lower impedance, but in practice retain the Wilson quality of otherwise being easy to drive. And as you know, if its merely an impedance issue, the ZEROs are always there to help any amplifier out.
I rather doubt that I'll get the opportunity to hear our amps against the Gryphons while driving Wilsons, but it would be fun.
Jim, as I remember, you are going to use digital source and later maybe open reel deck, and that's big maybe. Whatever you do, whatever components and speakers you eventually choose, you will not get great sound. At best you will get a more or less acceptable sound. I know that you know it. As I said before, you appear to be leading yourself into a trap. And I believe that you know it as well. There is no real solution within this system. Neither Gryphon nor Ypsilon nor others can correct the source, they will do some cover-up and smooth the way, nothing more.
@inna > Whatever you do, whatever components and speakers you eventually choose, you will not get great sound. At best you will get a more or less acceptable sound.
Blindjim > OK. so be it. Life is what it is. The restrictions advantages, or disadvantages it bestows upon us all, are what they are. Everybody is doing the best they can whith what they have to do it with everyday. No exceptions. I am. You are. Etc.
I’ve heard a fair number of systems apart from my own. I was a musician for many years prior to military service..
I do not see this trap you speaek of.
I feel your input here as well intentioned as it is, might be fueled with some bias as digital in your opinion is NOT the first priority for quality audio reproduction. That’s fine. Quality can be had in either hand. Analog or digital…. If one pays attention. Digital source is what is to me to do. So I will do that.
My former system had a lot of ‘they are here’ in its presentation. The next one will have more. Guaranteed. It will certainly have more duckets thrown at it, so it better!! )
The idea of enjoying music is not a narrow pathway. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If when listening to music, my knee is bobing, a smile is on my face and or I don’t want to turn it off, something good is happening. Further along, if I feel I could walk up and touch the artist, singer, or musician, I’m quite satisfied I’m hearing exceptional sounds.
Will what ever I amass be on par with the top tier in ultra audioland? Nope. I’m not even considering such an aspiration. I’m content with landing this time somewhere a step or three beyond the ‘threshold of diminishing returns’. That’s all and that is not a bad place to be IMHO.
Chasing perfection in an imperfect world is sheer folly. I can live happily with outstanding, and excellent.
Neither will I be able, nor would I want to spend exponentially above such a level as I do not see adequate justification for the expenditure to have another house in my house, er, uh, living room or listening room.
BMW 7 series? Now, there’s a thought. And it could fit too. Maybe without the radio though. thanks so much all the options though. very much. be well.
I think every amp should have meters mainly because I like them. I use the meter screen on my Squeezebox Touch at night because, as I said, I like them. Meters will improve the sound of any amp because they involve your otherwise not involved (for listening anyway) eyeballs that can become jealous of your ears and cause trouble. You want trouble to break out in your head? No? I rest my case.
Okay, I will bounce in here with a topic that NOBODY has actually put forth: POWER SUPPLY. There has been a lot of technical discussion above about how and why and if an amp can double the power on half the resistance. In my opinion, this idea of doubling power really doesn't matter. The major factor of these larger amps is the power supply. This is one of the primary reasons why people buy 500 watt or 1,000 watt monoblocks. The power supply (i.e. transformer and capacitor bank) are large enough where it does not allow a radical drop in voltage when music transients hit. This can be a large drop or even a tiny drop/fluctuation in voltage (even on somewhat quite music). With a large power supply, you will have smoother and more constant available voltage when the transistor circuits pull current to power the speaker. The amount of watts produced is almost a meaningless number because you realistically won't ever use more than 30-50 watts anyways. The power supply in larger amps is a large reason why the larger amps sound better, less harsh, smoother/fuller response, stronger bass, no brightness/clipping, more refined sound, etc.
The difference between the 400 watt monoblock and a 500 watt monoblock is actually very little. However, the difference between a 100 watt and 400 watt is pretty significant.
The other factor is whether the amp will be stable at 4 ohms or even 2 ohms (as some speakers definitely do drop down to 2-3 ohms in the bass area). This is the other area where power supply has a significant difference.
Obviously, different amps are voiced differently even though they are sized the same.
Of course power supply and good circuit topology design is also needed, but that should be discussed in posts by themselves, otherwise this thread will end up all over the place. Let’s just assume in this thread the power supply and circuit topology are unsurpassed in design and quality, and can give infinite current.
One system has a 70 wpc tube power amp and my other two systems use class A amps that will drive any speaker made (bought them from a guy using them to run Apogee Scintillas, possibly the most difficult load out there - 1 ohm and only 73dB efficient - they require up to 60 amps at times).
I like 'stiff' power supplies, but it is horses for courses - an easy load doesn't mandate a big power supply in an amp which may not sounds as good as a more modest amp with much less capable power supply.
This summer I went tube-a line stage first, and a Bob Latino St-120 later. A guy reviewed the St-120, who had a Mac Ml275 (recent variant) in a main system. He bought and built the ST-120 kit. In an honest A-B comparison, the Latino, that costs about $2K, bested the $6k Mac. There is good stuff and trash at all price points. I love mine-very smooth and full, great resolution and harmonic structure. After 12 years playing in hi-end, can't match sound of tubes in SS unless you have a big wallet to draw on. Good Luck.
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