Which USB reclocker is as good as the Innuos Phoenix USB?

Ideon Audio 3R Master Time Black Star.

@timo62 Yes you can use the Mutec but it only has USB in, no USB out.

These means you can't play native DSD.

BTW I would be interested to hear from anyone who has compared the IFI iSilencer to the Audioquest Jitterbug. Thanks

Not sure how it compares to the Unnuos Phoenix reclocker , but the Mutec MC-3 + USB could be a viable option to try. 

These dongles do work but it's very much on a case by case basis. I bought an original IFI iSilencer a few years back when I was ripping CDs and got a poor result from it when using it in series with my USB cable.

Fast forward to last week I found it when going through some old stuff and put it into one of the spare USB inputs on my Aurender and I was so surprised that I bought a new version too.

So just inserting them into the empty USB outputs does have a good effect decrapifying, again using them in series with the USB cable has poor results.

The Wyred4Sound Recovery is another value-priced option currently on sale, lowered from $199.00 to $149.00. Used with different DACs or directly from laptop into Expert Pro’s own DAC, I fancy it offers a slight/ subtle sound improvement with a touch more clarity. It certainly is not a case of night and day improvement.

From a logical perspective, it would seem to me that money could be spent more wisely when considering expensive re-clockers, unless of course one doesn’t care about cost and can easily afford it. I would suggest that most high-quality DACs have excellent clocking solutions within the architecture already, so any improvements should be subtle. Words like ‘dramatic improvement’ would suggest that the asynchronous DAC with it’s own re-clocking chipset is not up to par. Carefully engineered DACs that use great components should not sound dramatically worse, than an external re-clocker imvho.

“Why spend a ton more on a Streamer or DAC to get the same performance that a low cost USB dongle gives you? ”
@vinylfan62

Except it doesn’t, I have tried and tested many tweaks in my system. Again, not saying they don’t improve the sound but a $80 USB dongle won’t magically transform a laptop to a level of well designed dedicated streamer or server.

At the end of the day, do what makes you happy!

+1@jjss49

The assumption that more money leads to better sound is often faulty.

 

more than one thing can be true at the same time

budget systems, well assembled, expertly set up, can sound very good, bring tremendous enjoyment, have enduring qualities

but more money, spent wisely, will yield better sound, better music, even greater enjoyment -- if properly attuned to the owners’ tastes

the above are not contradictions, they co-exist in reality... the fun (and expertise) in this hobby to put together gear that brings us musical enjoyment is to be honest about what we like, spend $ wisely up to our comfort level, find our own sweet spot

it is about the music... creating our window onto musical performances to bring us happiness

lalitk, consider the reverse. Why spend a ton more on a Streamer or DAC to get the same performance that a low cost USB dongle gives you? And perhaps the dongle improves even the best sources. I wouldn’t know. I don’t buy the really expensive stuff. 

The assumption that more money leads to better sound is often faulty. @mahgister has often made that point beautifully. And digital isn’t analogue where simplicity wins anytime because of transmission losses.

op notably silent

guess it is what happens when noob comes here for confirmation of biases, wanting more info down the rabbit hole... but doesn’t get what he wants to hear... 

Nyev gets it, do it right way from beginning of chain, no need to waste money on band aids.

@antigrunge2 

I know you employ at least half a dozen of these nifty gadgets in your system. And I’m not questioning their effectiveness, I am just advocating buying or upgrading to better gear for higher gains than minuscule ones. 

@lalitk 

In my experience there are many ways to attain Nirvana. And sometimes little bits help…

“Holo audio Titanus.”

IME, devices like these are nothing more than Band-aids…very similar to putting a lipstick on a 🐷

As @nyev and @sns pointed out, why not buy a better streamer that negates the need for these band-aids.

@vinylfan62 

+1, especially when combined with an Etherregen upstream

@nyev,

you are spot-on. It does though irk that innuOS makes you buy two power supplies and 2 clocks for more or less the same purpose, doesn‘t it? And adding the $6-7k to the DAC budget might have significant benefits as well…

I recently purchased a PhoenixUSB.  My first impression following breakin was that it was very good - more separation, soundstage, and focus.  But I thought it might have need a tad “HiFi” sounding, but still better with than without.  I then bought a PhoenixNET.  This device perfectly completes the PhoenixUSB.  This device calms down the sound, and makes it totally natural.  It gives the music a solidity and a confidence to it.  I can’t imagine one without the other now.

That said, I agree that if you have a top end premium streamer that handles the clock already, then I’m not sure it’s worth it.  In fact, you could argue that it makes more sense to just go with a top end streamer rather than buying a PhoenixUSB.  With the PhoenixUSB you must use a top notch power cord along with the streamer, and you will need a top notch second USB cable.  So for all of that cost, it’s not THAT much if a stretch to go for a top end streamer like the InnuOS Statement.  In retrospect I think I might have done that instead, and done without the PhoenixUSB.  Still would have got the PhoenixNET though.

Holo audio Titanus. 

@curiousjim That would not be a problem, provided you have a USB input and you are feeding from a USB output, but it would probably be better if you chose one of the Denafrips DDCs first because they have clock connections.

Then if you really wanted more re-clocking you could put a Phoenix in front of them. Maybe you would get some improvement, you’d have to try.

@tjag and all,

Is there any reason you can’t mix and match re-clockers with DACs?

Let’s say I have a Denafrips Pontus ll DAC, is there any reason I wouldn’t be able to add a Phoenix DDC to it?

Thanks in advance.

JD

I don't know if some don't get it,but ALL servers ARE COMPUTERS. They all have noise producing motherboards, most run off noisy switching power supplies, and they connect rendering ports directly to this noisy motherboard. They also use the clocks off motherboards, you'll never get quality rendering out of these computers they call music servers. Certainly, they have some advantages over regular old general purpose computers, mostly in form of optimized operating systems, and most attend to motherboard noise in various ways. But to realize big gains over gs computers requires going to music servers that do quality rendering and/or separate streamer which requires adding a switch if not already  incorporating one. The high end server is likely the superior means of doing things, simple and optimized all in one. I'm talking $10K up servers, and some of these don't even do highest quality rendering. So, we can then go to separate streamer, who cares about quality rendering within server at this point, server is only going to contain music player library and do processing for music player such as Roon. So then we need to do the quality rendering in streamer, I think this is the way to go for many, lots of good streamers and lps to power them, spend like $2k for variety of servers, power it by lps, then streamers all over the place in price, all likely preferable to crap rendering off server motherboards. The streamer will generally have advantage in noise as its such a simple circuit compared to complex server motherboards, and you'll nearly always have superior clock to the motherboard  clock on non optimized servers. Get an lps for streamer, good to go. By the way, streamers ARE COMPUTERS as well, just simplified to serve far fewer purposes.

I  just don't get the continued fascination with all the rendering cleaners, reclockers, filters, blah, blah, blah. Do the job right with getting the rendering done optimally in first place, the dac usb board, if good one, will do the rest of the job.  You can't do any better than getting these two things right, simple, direct, optimized. Or do as Latik says, take care of the streamer from within the dac, then you only have to concern yourself with server rendering.

I understand many are mislead by the many good reviews of these 'band aid' items. @tjag The guy with Devialet has so much complexity with his streaming setup I can't make heads or tails of it. As mentioned previously, good reviews likely due to lowered noise floor with these devices, hell, I've seen guys daisy chain these devices, most report positive outcomes. The point I'm trying to make is people are spending far more money than need be for less than optimal results. I don't doubt people are hearing better sound quality with these devices, just better ways to do it then complexity and the marginal gains people getting with these devices.

I'll continue to repeat, these devices are only band aids. The INITIAL rendering is perhaps the most important process in streaming audio, it is the first in line in passing music signal, get it wrong and you'll never hear full potential of streaming. You cannot REPAIR or FIX what you got wrong in first place, the incorrect timing and noise produced DURING  the rendering process cannot be taken back.

I'd suggest for anyone not currently optimizing rendering, dump the band aids, get a server or streamer with optimized rendering and report back on sound quality. I bet everyone will have larger, more organized sound stage, and more natural, analog like presentation, some may also experience more low level information. All this assuming one's system has sufficient resolving capability.

And I have experienced the difference between proper rendering vs usb decrapifier in that at one point I had Uptone USBRegen, thought it nice addition until I experienced decent rendering via SOTM SMS 200 Neo.While the Uptone not the last word in usb filtering,it was easily bested by SOtm which is also not last word in rendering. Beyond this experience, I've learned from greatly informed and knowledgable streamers and designers. Put that together with informed logic and you'll find this is valid path for obtaining optimal streaming sound quality.

+1 Mutec MC-3Plus USB Smart Clock.

lordmelton"I’ll keep you updated with the SOtM but I couldn’t recommend an Aurender N20 and the Musetec 005 combination highly enough"

The Aurender is an extraordinary, exceptional, extreme quality machine so I am surprised that you are using it with the Musetec 005, a faulty, flawed, poorly executed design that is extremely unlikely to yield, result, and deliver optimum performance due to it’s poorly thought out multiple clock design that has "competing clocks" wreaking havoc and sonic degradation through the system that results in unrecoverable loss of detail and resolution. You would be wise, prudent, and justified in seeking out better DAC alternatives there are so many today!

For inexpensive, you might consider Gustard U18 ($500). In my system, it delivers powerful, clear, dynamic analogue sounding music via tube DAC (Abbas 2.4SE+). Some serious Head Fi people reported U18 nicer sounding than much costlier Mutec MC3. I tried MC3 with my previous DAC but not compared each directly. Apparently Gustard paid attention to stock U18 USB A-A cable and it does sound very good, connected to my MacBook Pro via Audioquest USB A to C Adapter. Don’t use Apple adapter with short flexible cable which sounds truly terrible. (For casual listening to Radio France Musique off web browser and to mine the rich seam of higher definition classical and jazz films on Youtube)

@tjag

i have no clue... 👍, just here making trouble... or am i making a point? 🤔

posts have date stamps, right?

you are an enthusiastic researcher it seems, kudos on that aspect ... but selective reading, wishful thinking and confirmation bias are banes to a researchers’ ultimate ability to arrive at proper conclusions

wish you good luck

@tjag 

As an alternative to relying on USB, have you considered a Streamer/DAC like Lumin T2? I have switched to a similar solution last year and couldn’t be any happier. 

@tjag That's correct, no re-clocker.

I used a Mutec 3+USB for several years using my laptop as source and it served me well but it can't play DSD. I now use an Aurender N20 as my source.

The Musetec 005 clocks internally and when I tried the Mutec with it, well it was superfluous. Adding an expensive LPS to the DDC gave an excellent result and proved to me that USB to I2s sounded better than USB alone.

I'll keep you updated with the SOtM but I couldn't recommend an Aurender N20 and the Musetec 005 combination highly enough.

@lordmelton thank you.

My future purchase will depend on how long I can wait for the Phoenix to appear on Hifishark :). If it is too long I will go the DDC way.

It would be very interesting to know how SOtM USB performs in comparison to the I2S after a week.

I noticed that the DDC you listed doesn't have a reclocker. The I2S interface will transmits the clock with the data to the DAC. The DAC could then benefit from being driven by a better clock improving performance.

@tjag 

A new question then, how good is sound over the I2S? :)

I use I2s with a USB to I2s DDC, I've been very happy with it and am only trying out the SOtM USB Ultra as an experiment for a friend.

However the SOtM is bringing something into the mix but it'll take about a week more to burn in.

This is the DDC and DAC I'm using to excellent results:

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/l-k-s-audio-usb-100-usb-audio-interface-pcm384-dsd512-i2s-rj45-hdmi-coaxial-out-dsd512-with-crystek

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/l-k-s-audio-mh-da005-es9038-pro-x-2-dac-coaxial-opt-aes-ebu-flagship-audio-decoder

I do think you'll get a better result if you do the USB to I2s conversion firstly and then maybe try the USB reclocking later, if you feel it's necessary. BTW I use RJ45 I2s.

This case is closed.

A reviewer "Koso" on audiophilestyle.com tested the Phoenix USB against the Ideon 3R Master time (USB reclocker) and the Denafrips Gaia DDC (no USB output).

Posted May 27

On 5/27/2022 at 8:08 PM, beautiful music said:

So are you end up letting Gaia go or am I missing thing?

Yes, that’s the plan. PhoenixUSB is doing magic in my setup.

Premium gear and expensive. I can't afford this :)

Tjag   Here is the DCS line up it’s one the the most premium digital in the world .

what dac would you use with this ? If buying new Their Bartok dac-Streamer 

isexceptional ,my brother owns one ,and no reclocker necessary imo.

@audioman58 do you have a link to their products please?

@gavin1977 The Pink Faun USB Bridge is a good solution when streaming from a PC.

You know what, I am starting to think it is the USB that is complicating things. The USB was originally developed for computer communications and not for audio. They say if the USB is implemented well then it will work great. Yes, but from the reviews I read it seems no one is implementing it well enough thus the need for the Phoenix.

In my DAC both the USB and I2S support the same sampling rate:

USB / I2S : PCM up to 32bit 1536kHz, DSD up to DSD1024, DSD DoP up to DSD64

Perhaps it is time to try a digital interface that outputs I2S like the Singxer SU-6 or the AUDIO-GD DI-20 HE.

The Mano ULTRA mkII Music Streamer would have been great. It has two femto ultra low jitter clocks. I need to ask them about the I2S PCM sampling rate, because it seems to support 24bits only while my DAC supports 32bit PCM or is there something I am misunderstanding?

HDMI I2S LVDS = 44.1 Khz – 192 Khz | 16-24 bit – DSD64 (DoP)

A new question then, how good is sound over the I2S? :)

DCS  has several that are far better if you have the $$ afford them .

@djones51 Thanks djones51. We are here to share and learn.

Don't mess with the clock.  It is the Achilles heel of everything digital.

@jjss49

What is it with you and this attitude?

Apparently you have close no knowledge in digital gear.

You asked for advice in a thread you created:

Wisdom of buying high priced digital gear (given new advancements underway)

As I am fairly new to the world of stand-alone streamers and DACs, as well as combo units like a Hegel amp with onboard DAC, my question is whether it is wise to buy some of the more expensive high end streamers and DACs, say in the 3-4-5 grand (and up) range.

For instance, a Bluesound Node 2i is a capable digital bit-source (weak internal DAC noted) at only $500, so I question the benefit of buying a $2-3-4k unit from Innuos, Brooklyn, Auralic etc etc? But if I do, just to try them, I am concerned there will be newer units out in the future, and these used units may take significant value hits.

Then you come here bringing your lack of knowledge and "armpit" attitude.

Treat people as you want to be treated.

To the OP I deleted my posts. I promised myself I wouldn’t comment on reclocker threads. If someone wants to believe this stuff then they will. I apologize for the interruption.  Carry on.

The only thing that might come close with Pink Faun Ultraclocked PCIe USB card

omg -- this thread is quickly becoming the sweaty armpit of audiogon 😆

@sns I believe that reviewer on head-fi (muski) is doing pretty well for himself and his system. This is his gear:

• Devialet Expert 1000 Pro $35000
• DAVE DAC $14000
• M SCALER DIGITAL $5650
• Innuos PhoenixUSB $3195
• Focal Utopia $2600
• Sonore OpticalRendu $1895

Total: $48340

With such a system there is no way he forgot to add a decent linear power supply

This is the only entry on the net I read someone claiming to have bettered the Phoenix. I don’t know if I believe him because this is a selling ad (Mano ULTRA mkII Music Streamer). By the way the Mano doesn’t have a USB output.

Check what he wrote

"I am only selling because I changed DAC’s and no longer have an I2S input. But this streamer was outstanding and bettered my previous Sonore UltraRendu/Innuos Phoenix USB path at a much cheaper cost"

I don't get why the guy inserted Phoenix between Devialet and ultrarendu. The Devialet has non-optimal usb rendering so I understand the improvment using sonore and phoenix. Reviewer should place UltraRendu directly after Devialet, listen, then add Phoenix AFTER UltraRendu. I'd bet on no better or dimiinished sound quality used in this order. If the guy added Phoenix after having previously used Devialet direct to UltraRendu, I'd suggest further lowering of noise floor with Phoenix here, benefited UR, redundant clocks don't help. I'd also like to know what power supply reviewer uses with UR, quality of this has great impact on noise floor of that unit.

@sns Thank you for your advice. I have a simple but relatively good streamer ifi Zen with a nice DAC Musician Aquarius. I am not worried that my streamer is better than what these guys have :)

I did read about what gear they used, and it is a variety. One reviewer even tested the Phoenix with the Sonore UltraRendu and reported a positive result.

@sns  I agree, internal clocks close to D/A converter IC make sense to me.  Advertisement of external clocks often shows extreme accuracy or long term stability - both unimportant.  Important is the jitter of the clock, that often is not specified and can be increased by the method of delivery (cable, external electrical noise, clock's PS noise).  I would rather spend money on better DAC instead of very expensive "femtosecond" external clock.  AFAIK jitter below about 50ps becomes inaudible, while "femtosecond" suggests 1000x below this level.  It is like buying keyboard able to type million words per second.