Which Tweeter preferred- dome natural material, Beryllium/Metal or Planar Ribbon? Why?

Too subjective a topic to answer. Too many variables to consider.

Maggie True Ribbon.  no contest.  and i've listened to good examples of Silk dome, Metal, alum, BE, Ring.  honestly i've modified speakers with new tweeters.  i have favored some of the Ring Radiators compared to the dome and they seemed to have better imaging.  BUT nothing compares to a Long Length Dipole Ribbon.  Dipole, dispersion, surface area can't be matched with the other methods. 

If you buy the best example of each type they are all outstanding. So if we look at it in reverse , meaning what is the best cheap tweeter, it boils it down to something more fundamental relating to design. The best inexpensive tweeter is the ring radiator. Even cheap ring radiators perform extremely close the the best examples. 

They really have little character other than transparency and wide dynamics. I have never seen someone say, oh I can hear that ring radiator like they frequently do with metal domes hardness, soft domes smoothing over or ribbon shimmer. 
 

To me the issue is we have become accustomed to hearing a certain signature and have developed a preference for them.

[please excuse my poor English]

IMHO, the AMT (Air Motion Transformer) technology is unquestionably the best of all (when the manufacturer makes it right).

"AMT Air Motion Transformer" is an Oscar Heil patent, now in the public domain. But its quality indeed depends of the implementation that the manufacturer made of the patent. Some cheap AMT tweeters, made in China, weight 660gr and have an uneven frequency response. Other AMT tweeters are made by Mundorf (for instance), weight 1,8Kg, are very linear (and cost more than €1000/piece !!!). So, huge variations here, of course. As with ribbon.

But all technologies confounded, if you take the best of each one, the AMT wins hands down. I attend live acoustic performances, and I wish that my gear to sound like "the real thing". I did not dare to say to Peter Mc Graath (Wilson), while demonstrating a pair of Wilson Alexandria, that I heard just before a better right hand on the piano with an excellent AMT tweeter, powered by Gamut amplification. But I did dare to tell him that such great speakers as Wilsons fully deserved something better than those "nasty" tioxyd titane inverted dome made by Focal (that Wilson used at the time). Luckily, they stopped using them afterwards.

One brilliant use of AMT tweeter is for instance made by French speaker Jean-Marie Reynaud (JMR) Voce Grande ($9000 approx.). Please note that I am NOT French, neither have I any affiliation with JMR! The point is that I recently listen to them twice, and, for the price, I am gobsmacked. I know very few speaker that deliver such a value for the money, if you like speakers that sound very open, and non-fatiguing. And the AMT transducer used plays a big role here. I do not know the origin of the tweeter used in this case, but it is an extremely long model, made of one piece, which covers 1200hz-30000Hz.

 

Of course, like everyone here, I heard and know very well: soft domes, ribbon (I own a pair of true-ribbon planar ribbon speaker), beryllium, diamond, etc.

___________________

One member said previously:

Tweeter type does not matter. //I respectfully, but emphatically disagree: Yes, it does matter, definitely.

 

 

 

I think many of us have lost hearing in the high frequency ranges.  Depending on the level of hearing loss, some choose brighter tweeters to hear some of the higher frequencies they have lost.  Perhaps, this is why there is such a variety of speaker using different tweeters.  It also depends on the kind of music you listen.  Perhaps, it would be interesting to know what speakers produce the best balanced and neutral sound.  If you listen to classical or operas you are going to want to hear the artist more.

The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don't do nearly as well on tubes.

In these videos, I went to extremes to match the volumes and the Vanessa track is within 0.1 dB while the SRV track is within 0.5 dB, both in favor of the Melton.  Everything else is held constant.

Vanessa on solid state:

https://youtu.be/HTxZJBoOywM 

 

Vanessa on tubes:

https://youtu.be/FDIu2BFbt-Q

 

Stevie on solid state:

https://youtu.be/W66SQS1wDUA

 

Stevie on tubes:

https://youtu.be/ZxhDJ_eOlYw

The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don't do nearly as well on tubes.

That's not my experience.  I heard them on a 12 watt SET amp and they were fantastic.  So much so that I purchased a pair of ESS and plan on using them on my DIY speakers.  

The time I heard them on a SS state amp they weren't nearly as impressive.  I'll admit completely different venue, music and presentation. 

Which is why you need to INSTANTANEOUSLY A/B them with everything else being IDENTICAL as I allowed for.  Did you watch the videos?

 

Maybe a different tube amp would have a different outcome, but others on another forum also find this to be true.

 

 

These are the ones that I have liked 

Corona Plasma Tweeter

• Frequency Response -1500 Hz - 150 kHz ±3dB
• The most Natural effect on the entire sound spectrum for human hearing

RAAL Ribbon Tweeter 70-10

• Frequency Response: 2,000 Hz - 100 kHz
• Quick, Agile, Effortless Overall Sound Presentation 

ELAC Omnidirectional 4Pi Plus Ribbon Super Tweeter

• Frequency Response: 10,000 - 50,000 Hz
• Can be Seamlessly Integrated with Virtually Any Loudspeaker
• Enhances the Sound from the Loudspeakers and Fills the Entire Room with Music

 

Well now this is getting good!!

Thank you all!!

 

Orf- At what frequency does a tweeter become  a super tweeter?

 

ggc- Was that Omni used is the Euro Elac line or the USA?

-Is the Corona Plasma Tweeter a thing of the past or still used?

[please excuse my poor English]

@toddalin

The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don’t do nearly as well on tubes.

In these videos, I went to extremes to match the volumes...

Thanks !! The difference is obvious: significantly more defined when powered by solid state.

But is this difference of "behaviour" (with SS vs tubes) specific to the ESS AMT tweeter? It seems the possible answer is YES: ESS 689-1108, for instance, has a 4 Ohm impedance. A 4 Ohms load will always require a lot more current to sing.

But, for instance, this Mundorf AMT tweeter (8 Ohms, 1,8Kg, and...$1145/piece!!) will need much less current, has a sensitivity of 100 dB => I guess any tube could deal with that. And then here, tube could be better through this transducer.

And, again, that speaker uses an AMT (unknown origin), and is a 8 Ohms load, min. 6,8 Ohms. Again, I am not affiliated to JMR in any way, but it is outstanding for the price.

My humble CONCLUSIONS

• the videos brilliantly demonstrate that high current SS are specifically preferable with the aforementioned ESS AMT tweeter, indeed.
• But to make a general assessment that SS are a better match, on the base of only one model, is maybe misleading, as the Mundorf’s specification suggest (maybe others would, too).
• It is possible that some other (high end? Expensive?) AMT tweeters easily accept tubes as well as SS, and does not favor the latter. So that their respective merits can more objectively shine through AMT’s. This could be the explanation of @danager ’s preference for tubes-with-AMT (cf. his very good experience with 12w SET tubes), who probably did his findings that with another AMT tweeter in use.

 

But, for instance, this Mundorf AMT tweeter (8 Ohms, 1,8Kg, and...$1145/piece!!) will need much less current, has a sensitivity of 100 dB ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm sure its a fine tweeter, BUt really my 92db sens tweeters, will perform as good as this AMT. again you do not need to spend a lot of cash to get super high fidelity. I run both tweeters witha single Mundorf EVO SG 8uf cap , which allows both tweeters to go down to 5khz. PERFECT match for my dual Full Range, Seamless intergration, just incredible. again repeating what I said above, now that I have dual tweeters in my system, I could never ever go back to a single tweeter design. Philips AD163 cerca 1978 at about 91 db. and a DavidLouis clone($100 pair) of a Seas T35($300+ EACH!!), at 92 db. Looking at a 6 ohm tweeter, again davidLouis clone of a veryyyyy expensive tweeter.

100db sens in a  tweeter is wayyyyy too high for my preferences. 

91-93 is my ideal. 94 ok perhaps. But not 95db. 

I can not work in dual tweeters with a  sens higher than 94db,,so actually , back to my 93 db as limit sens. 

Below 91 db is too low.

91,92,93

The price is totally pointless here.

I just wished to suggest that there are various specifications, that could explain the contradictory feedbacks.

I modified my AMTs to take the peak out of the high end (~10kHz) using a diffraction lens I designed/developed, and to boost the lower end by extending the flair.

 

I also remove the back wave because I don’t want the reflections, which can be unpredictible.

 

I also designed and made the stands out of 3/8" smoked acrylic cut on the laser table.  I also have a pair in clear if anyone is interested in them.

 

 

 

 

Back to tweeters….

Best I’ve heard so far are the ribbons on the Quad z-2. 

As described in Stereophile … as it goes in the wrriteup goes for the smaller lower quad speakers  

Have heard the quad S-2 that have a smaller version … “were incandescent in”there highs  I think the z-2 exceed the S-2 and should as the tweeter is twice the size.

last favorite was the titanium domes on psb speakers  

magenapan quasi ribbon was not as transparent but haven’t yet heard the new revamped Maggie’s  

look forward to my next steps up to beryllium and diamond done  

dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang  

 

 

 

 

As always it’s all in the implementation..

For me its all about fatigue. I've built a few speakers and the metals don't work for me. Recently tried the Scanspeak Illuminator and they were very nice. The 2608 was a bit lifeless. The Dynaudio D28/2 and the D260 are my favorites and I could listen to all day. I have not heard a good ribbon and would like to try that soon. Would pair it with some oider Dynaudio 17W75s or a Scanspeak 4531. You all already gave me some ideas - thanks.

Kapton for ribbon midranges and tweeters for higher power handling, but not quite as smooth as mylar. Aluminum for cylindrical tweeters and midranges seem less harsh sounding than titanium. I've not tried beryllium so no opinion but some swear by beryllium.

@chorus , mass and surface area are minor issues in comparison to this. True ribbons are like ESLs, a force over area drive system. Every molecule of the ribbon is controlled by the electrical signal. Dynamic speakers use a voice coil to drive a diaphragm. The diaphragm is expected to follow the movement of the voice coil perfectly. It is not controlled directly by the signal. It adds an uncontrolled resonating mass to the drive. The end result is significantly more distortion. By making a long ribbon ala Magnepan you can form a line source which is very difficult to do with dynamic drivers. Many have tried and failed. Line source speakers have significant advantages over point source speakers. There is one problem with ribbons. They can be rather fragile. 

Although I have not personally heard them, I suspect the Voxative AC Xp Field Coil to be one of or perhaps is the best based upon reviews/reports.  Unfortunately they’re very expensive.  Hearing them is on my bucket list.  

@arion ,

Come to the Midwest. I would love to hear your dipoles!

All the best!

JD

Back in the day, I had a pair of DQ-10’s and I replaced the tweeters with Decca ribbons and they made the high end smooth as a Sows ear.😁 No really, there was no longer that sharp drilling sound that came out of those Piezoelectric ear shredder’s. Even after changing the tweeters, some caps on the crossovers and a few other things, I ended up trading them for a pair of Acoustat Model X’s, that I still have.

JD

Designer and manufacture of Arion Apollo (AMT) speakers.

JD,

We will be exhibiting at the Pacific Audio Fest show this year in late July. We also plan on being at the Capital Audio Fest show this year. We will likely show Apollo 9 speakers at the PAF show. Is there a show in the Midwest?

One of our design criteria is high efficiency. We feel it is worth the extra effort to build speakers that can be enjoyed by both low power SET tube amp enthusiasts (2 watts) and medium power SS amps enthusiasts (200 watts) and everything in-between. Apollos speakers let the amp's virtues (or deficiencies) shine through. Personally, I use 45 tube amps (1.5 watts) driving Apollo 12s. At last year's CAF show we used ARC Ref 160M amps (140 watts). Other uses class-D amps, another uses 300B amps.

Good AMTs work well with both SS amps and tube amps. SQ issues are more likely about poor implementation or sub-par equipment.

dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Problem w all dome tweeters is the fact , they are all being xover too low, Yeah I know Seas/Scan and SB Acoustics claim 2500hz-3khz is perfectly ok. But IMHO you are asking the T to do something that may add breakup/distortion. Especially w my classical/operas. I placea single 8uf cap which takes the T to 5k. Thats it. Now the T is very happy and sings beautifully. No stress, no breakups. Troels attempts to achieve this magical xover fq to 2k hz to meet his midwoofers. I can't stand fq's w T's below 5k hz. After lengthy experimentations and cash investments, I FINALLY figured out why my classical music was not LIVE sounding Now I have a front row seat in all my 1950's operas, , Corelli/Turnadot never sounded so powerfully dynamic and full of soul.

I have heard excellent examples in application of just about every type of tweeter.  The key is putting a given tweeter in the right application with the right electrical integration to its mating speaker and enclosure.  

I have also heard some terrible examples of applications of different tweeter types.  

My favorite sounding tweeter of all time is the Scan Speak aluminum dome tweeter in the Harbeth C7ES3 speaker.  What a gorgeous sounding tweeter.  

@mozartfan

dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Problem w all dome tweeters is the fact , they are all being xover too low, Yeah I know Seas/Scan and SB Acoustics claim 2500hz-3khz is perfectly ok. But IMHO you are asking the T to do something that may add breakup/distortion. Especially w my classical/operas. I placea single 8uf cap which takes the T to 5k. Thats it. Now the T is very happy and sings beautifully. No stress, no breakups. Troels attempts to achieve this magical xover fq to 2k hz to meet his midwoofers. I can’t stand fq’s w T’s below 5k hz. After lengthy experimentations and cash investments, I FINALLY figured out why my classical music was not LIVE sounding Now I have a front row seat in all my 1950’s operas, , Corelli/Turnadot never sounded so powerfully dynamic and full of soul.

Not so fast. High-Pass XO with one cap gives you a 1st order slope (6db/octave). So for example, at 5KHz XO point, you are only 12 dB down at 1250Hz (2 octaves down from 5K). If you use a 4th order XO (24db/octave) at 2.5Hz XO point, you will be 24db down at 1250Hz. A much better, and less stressful configuration for the tweeter, even though it is crossed over lower. Your tweeter setup, which you brag about, is actually working a lot harder, and not sounding as good as it could (XOver too high for a good transition to a conventional midwoofer).