What Western Electric system did you hear? With the exception of the Western Electric 753 and 757, they did not make many complete systems. It was more the case of someone assembling a system from components. Do you recall what components or system you heard?
The same can be said of G.I.P. drivers, they have to be assembled by someone into a system. How someone did this makes all the difference and you cannot judge the drivers as good or bad based on any one particular assembly. G.I.P. does make very expensive systems, utilizing their own cabinets and drivers; I have not heard any such system and I don't know what they sound like.
What particular vintage WE horn system are you looking at? Are you looking for a complete vintage system, or are you looking to build a system from vintage drivers and horns? I have heard many systems built from vintage drivers and horns and these can be very nice.
But, as far as sound quality goes, there is no reason to avoid considering replicas made by G.I.P. Laboratories; they make terrific replicas of Western Electric field coil drivers. These replicas cost about as much as genuine vintage drivers. They make a few updated and improved versions of certain Western Electric drivers, but, these are exorbitantly priced. I have heard the upgraded version of the 597 tweeter and it is very good (the upgraded tweeter sells for $58,000 for a pair).
I have a sort of modern system, based on old school design. It uses twin 12" woofers with alnico magnets, and pleated paper surrounds in a Onken bass reflex cabinet. The midrange compression driver is a Western Electric 713b (my favorite driver) feeding a Western Electric KS 120125 horn. The tweeter is a Fostex bullet-type tweeter. I am having a crossover designed around Western Electric paper in oil capacitors built for me. I will probably also upgrade the wiring of the speaker (Audio Note silver wire).
Avant-Garde speakers are very interesting. Some listeners/owners find them to sound stunningly good. Then there are those who can’t tolerate their overt (in their opinion of course) coloration. It’s always YMMV with High End Audio.
Shkong, I would get a pair of Avant-garde Duo Mezzos. Check out the YouTube “Garrard 301 vs Studer”. One of the best recordings on YT. The system uses the AGs pushed by a Nagra 300B amp. Since you already have similar silver trannys to the Kondo and a very nice 300B amp with WEs, a super efficient speaker will produce a great system able to fill any room! Don’t think you would need the subs and crossover with the AGs. Simple is always best. Not to knock the Jadis since the Jadis sound may be the ultimate PP tube beauty, but 500lbs and 6 chassis!!
explains (to some extent anyway) what/why I heard differently between
my SET (class A triode 300b) and my 100 watt push pull( class A/B
pentode tubed 6550) amplifiers. Some degree of 5th harmonic
distortion presence.
Yes- nearly any amp along those lines will have some of that sound. But of course its more complicated than that- if the amp uses feedback, if its ultralinear or not, if its using triodes and so on. I'm not a fan of interstage transformers but if used in a fully differential topology even then you still get the 3rd harmonic without that pesky 5th showing up as much. You'd think by the application of feedback that you could erase that signature, but in almost any tube amp you simply can't put in enough feedback to pull it off (too many timing constants, especially if transformers are involved).
Thanks for that explanation, it makes sense,and explains (to some extent anyway) what/why I heard differently between my SET (class A triode 300b) and my 100 watt push pull( class A/B pentode tubed 6550) amplifiers. Some degree of 5th harmonic distortion presence.
@atmasphere Ralph, thanks for the discussion on this. Helpful, educational and appreciated.
The only way I've found to get around that is to avoid that sort of topology- either go entirely single-ended and get that 2nd harmonic or go entirely fully differential and get a 3rd harmonic (although at about 1/10th the level that the 2nd shows up in a single-ended circuit). Since the ear is relatively insensitive to either other than contributing to 'warmth', 'body' and the like, this seems to be the way to go since you can't put enough feedback on a tube amp to really tame the distortion properly (or most solid state amps for that matter)- you wind up just making it brighter and harsher.
But, is 3rd order harmonic distortion as easily/naturally tolerated by
the human ear as is 2nd order harmonic distortion which is quite well
tolerated. Some would say that in fact 2nd order Harmonic distortion is
congruent with human hearing.
@charles1dad The short answer is 'yes'. The ear treats both *exactly* the same. What *does not work* is if the amp has low distortion, but the distortion it has is mostly higher ordered harmonics (5th and above). Such amps tend to sound bright and harsh, compared to an amplifier that has a predominate 2nd or 3rd. The reason that so many push-pull amps get docked for their sound as opposed to an SET is that when you combine a single-ended voltage amplifier with a push-pull output, that type of topology tends to produce a noticeable 5th harmonic, which makes the amp less musical.
The only way I've found to get around that is to avoid that sort of topology- either go entirely single-ended and get that 2nd harmonic or go entirely fully differential and get a 3rd harmonic (although at about 1/10th the level that the 2nd shows up in a single-ended circuit). Since the ear is relatively insensitive to either other than contributing to 'warmth', 'body' and the like, this seems to be the way to go since you can't put enough feedback on a tube amp to really tame the distortion properly (or most solid state amps for that matter)- you wind up just making it brighter and harsher.
Two amplifiers that represent the pinnacle of decades of design development of two legends in the Audio world, Kondo san and Berning san. I speak from a listener and enthusiast’s perspective. Not from a technical one. I do not discount the importance of specs and technical aspects. But present the importance of enjoying the music. If someone’s tastes lean toward the “cool and neutral” presentation, the Berning is perhaps the ultimate example. If one’s tastes are more the “warm and liquid”, the Kondo may be the best there is. Both amps are highly “musical”. Perhaps the classic yin and yang. Personally, if I had the cash and inclination, I would jump at a chance to own the Kondo for $30+K less and never look back. Especially considering the “taming” of that plasma tweeter!
Avantgarde Trios with basshorns can’t do this? or the big Cessaros? Not sure I agree with you here.
I think your speakers are simply harder to drive in a large room than one thinks.
depends on one’s expectations for large scale, complicated, reproduced music.
i’m not saying you are limited in musical choices with those very high efficiency speakers, only that those very large scale recordings are not the strength of those type speakers. whereas it is the strength of large dynamic cone speakers. it’s still not easy to accomplish.
the only performance limitation in my room is the limits of SPL’s on the capacity of the human senses. the system exceeds those by a good margin without losing it’s grip.
and those very high impedance speakers just don’t cut it when the music gets really complicated. the superb aspects of those speakers becomes just ok to good when things really start cranking and wild.
Avantgarde Trios with basshorns can't do this? or the big Cessaros? Not sure I agree with you here.
I think your speakers are simply harder to drive in a large room than one thinks.
atma-sphere, I understand that 3rd order harmonic distortion amplifiers generally have less overall distortion. But, is 3rd order harmonic distortion as easily/naturally tolerated by the human ear as is 2nd order harmonic distortion which is quite well tolerated. Some would say that in fact 2nd order Harmonic distortion is congruent with human hearing. Charles
@charles1dad The Berning amplifier in question can run feedback or none; being SET its distortion signature is based on a quadratic nonlinearity (2nd harmonic). In order to have a cubic nonlinearity (based on 3rd harmonic) the amp has to be entirely differential from input to output.
The ear treats both the 2nd and 3rd the same way (contributes to 'warmth' and 'richness') but in general an amplifier with a predominate 3rd will have considerably less overall distortion (typically 1/10th) than one based on the 2nd, and as the distortion order is increased, the product falls off faster. This is especially beneficial because the ear is so sensitive to the higher ordered harmonics.
The advantage of the Berning amplifier over a traditional SET is that the output transformer is not nearly as bandwidth limited and it does not have the saturation issues. So it can be made considerably higher power as well!
mglik, Agree 100% that the Berning OTL and the Kondo Ongaku could both be considered to be uber quality amplifiers yet as you note unquestionably different sounding. I don’t see how one could be declared superior to the other. They will simply appeal to different types of listeners.
Lean/cooler tonality(some might say more transparent ) OTL versus fuller body/flesh on the bone (some might say warmer) SET. Distinctly different forms of a particular harmonic distortion character. 3rd order versus 2nd order. There are devout fans of each. No right or wrong here. Charles
Never heard the Ongaku but hope to someday. Having said this, I have never heard a transformer coupled amp that could compare with an OTL. With single ended amps I always get the feeling that I am listening to distortion that shouldnt be present.
There is an Ongaku currently on AG for $52k. Bet you could get it for much less. IMO, best amp ever made. The Berning is second. Very different sound. More SS sounding and more transparent but lacking the SET MAGIC. GO FOR THE Ongaku!
Your question is interesting, but if your dealer does not bring both amps to your house and set them up for you for an extended listening period, I would shop elsewhere where that can happen.
In the end, the price is irrelevant; which one do YOU like in YOUR room is the only question you have to answer. Oh, don't forget longevity of the company and availability of parts and service; EVERYTHING breaks eventually.
An amp is simply a group of electrical parts that have a fixed price; anything else you pay is for R&D, marketing, and, unfortunately, hype.
There are only a few basic designs for audio amps; some people mess with them, etc. I spoke to Bill Johnson at length back in the 1970's when I was one of his few dealers, and he explained that the basics of these amps are well known and have changed little over time other than through designers (like some of the ones mentioned above) tweaking something here or there. For example, Levinson used to brag to me that he used "MIL-SPEC" parts. His amps did not sound very good back then; I have no idea what Harmon makes now under his name. He went through a few designers--one died, I think--and then the company was trashed and the name was purchased. Whatever.
Mr. Johnson died, and there are new people designing things there now. I assume some are better than others, as in any line of products that have different price points.
The point is, whatever you pay is irrelevant; get the parts YOU LIKE BEST and ENJOY THE MUSIC. After all, building a $200,000 kitchen so you can show it off to your friends when everyone knows you eat out every meal is no different to me than buying a $200,000 stereo so you can say you have one.
Ralph, you are always too much of a gentleman to recommend your own products. I personally have seen Ralph give very honest opinions of how other products compare to his own. From what I know, the Atma-sphere amps are direct coupled and OTL. So I'll ask, Ralph, which of your Atma-sphere amps would you recommend to compete with the Berning at this level and what would be MSRP on that amp. Hopefully, no one will mind me asking this info.... I have no hat in this ring and will gain nothing from it.
Just to be clear, the Berning is not an OTL. 'OTL' is an acronym for 'Output TransfomerLess'; thus refers to an amplifier with neither output transformers or solid state devices in the output section and the Berning has both (see the patent). It is however a brilliant amplifier (David is one of the top designers in high end audio IMO), and IMO its a no-brainer over the Jadis if you have speakers efficient enough as it sounds like you do.
Now you might want to try a real OTL; This is the kind of tube amplifier that employs only tubes with no output transformer or semiconductors in order to drive the loudspeaker. Traditionally for the last 60 years OTLs have been the most transparent amplifiers made. They also work great on high efficiency loudspeakers (my speakers at home are 98dB).
Rick had David design that amplifier specifically so Rick could market it exclusively (I've known Rick since way back when he was a salesman for 3M here in town). Its one of the better tube amps money can buy, but it has competition that is a lot less expensive- with your budget cheap enough you could afford both. IIRC the Berning amp also uses a specialty Elrog power tube that Rick is having made just for him. High end audio is all about intention rather than price :)
i did start a WBF thread that ended up with 1200-1300 posts a couple of years ago about my experience with the ML3-VAC 450-Dart 458’s. lots of heavy breathing going on.
all three superb amps and it was a privilidge having all three in room together for 4 months. my large room did not look so large with all those big chassis sitting there.
The VAC Statement is I'm certain a fantastic amplifier. It's high power push pull tubes which go in a different as would the big Jadis amplifiers. The Berning and Lamm ML3 would definitely intrigue and interest me much more. Berning OTL versus the Lamm SET on appropriate speakers would be something quite special. This is what's best audio forum territory 😊. Charles
Berning would be my choice if you have the appropriate speakers. To me speaker impedance trumps efficiency. If I were to buy a S.S. amp then the darTZeel would be on my short list, but there is no way in the more sublime aspects of reproduction that the dar is going to match the Berning. With higher impedance speakers, no amp type I have ever heard matches OTLs or David Berning’s version of an OTL.
it’s not that simple. and i’m not qibbling that the OTL won’t have some nuance advantages over even the big darTZeel solid state on very high impedance speakers, but the ’not simple’ part is your choice of music and expectations for large scale music.
small combo jazz, blues, and vocals would tilt toward the OTL, but rock, big band, large scale classical and electronic would tilt back toward the darts in a large scale system......like mine. and those very high impedance speakers just don’t cut it when the music gets really complicated. the superb aspects of those speakers becomes just ok to good when things really start cranking and wild.
recently i not only had these OTL Berning’s in my system, but also the Lamm ML3 SET’s and big VAC 450 Statements. i enjoyed all those really fine tube amps. but my dart 458’s ran away and hid from all of those as the music scaled higher.
then my 458’s got replaced by the new 468’s, with even more musicality and fluidity. and the advantages of those tube amps on the more intimate stuff was reduced further.
i’m a guy who listens to lots of large scale classical in a large system. and nothing does that all around as well as the big darts to my ears.
45 minutes ago i was listening to the 45rpm reissue Mofi pressing of the ’Santana’ Lp, the cut ’Jingo’ at warp 9 on my big rig. this was an out-of-the-world musical experience with every molecule of my very large room energized. effortless, ease, matter-of-fact musical presentation without a sense of it being reproduced. just music.
the Berning OTL no matter the speaker would not have been in the neighborhood of that experience. and to me it is essential. just my 2 cents, YMMV.
Berning would be my choice if you have the appropriate speakers. To me speaker impedance trumps efficiency. If I were to buy a S.S. amp then the darTZeel would be on my short list, but there is no way in the more sublime aspects of reproduction that the dar is going to match the Berning. With higher impedance speakers, no amp type I have ever heard matches OTLs or David Berning's version of an OTL.
I thought it was just me with Skyfi I sent them a very polite message saying they were doing a big disservice by saying the Technics SL1200 MKII they were selling for a lot of money is the same as the Technics SL1200G which is a completely different turntable and a lot more money. I received a very smug reply saying ”excuse me for not knowing All about the Technics turntable. Next time I’ll consult with you first”. Then I got banned and couldn’t reply back. Their loss.
Thanks for your informed reply. I should have been more clear with my inquiry. I know based on my listening neither the Dan’Agostino or Boulder are what the OP is searching for. You characterized the no NFB/simple circuit/linear genre of tube amps very well. I was just curious on purely sonic grounds what you thought of the other two amps in light of your vast exposure.. Based on my limited exposure to both I’d also choose D’Agostino over the Boulder. Given my taste, the Berning over both of them.
The other thing I notice about Skyfi is they offer no warranty on the used stuff they sell once you receive it on good working order.
Also they say they have a tech that checks everything before sale to make sure in good working order but do not seem to provide any repairs once sold. That would be a big no go for me especially for those big ticket items.
Compare to a local shop near me that is similar but not nearly as upscale. Their specialty is service and repair.
The Dan’Agostino and Boulder amplifiers were mentioned as similarly priced components. I’ve heard amps from both brands but only under audio show conditions. Are you familiar enough with either to render an opinion as to how they compare to the Berning?
my listening experience with those 2 brand’s amps are pretty much at audio shows, and i like to various degrees, but don’t absolutely love, either. i think in the context of a good quality speaker system with modestly difficult load they are good choices, and can be the basis for a great system. neither are limiting.
the OP spoke of wanting an appropriate amp for a high efficiency speaker, and also of his experience with his Silbatone SET and his previous Jadis. this IMHO precludes these two brands from being in the running for an appropriate fit for him. neither have the sort of tube like life, or minimalist, global feedback free circuit, that would get into the realm of his direction. but the Berning certainly does. it hits the nail on the head. i think my darTZeel, if we are talking solid state alternatives (which the OP did not bring up so neither did i till now), would be a ’fit’ in terms of musical character in alignment......or to be fair simply more in alignment if we are looking for solid state alternatives. maybe the dart 108 being more real world price points compared to my 468’s.
i don’t see those others as alternatives to the Berning......but are both top quality choices seen in many very good systems. but rarely matched with a high efficiency speaker. if i were choosing between those two brands for someone coming from tubes, then the D’Agostino strikes me as closer, if that is your question.
my path years ago, was from big No.33 Mark Levinson’s.......to 75 watt Tenor OTL’s......then to darTZeel solid state. that Tenor OTL is still my beacon of sonic reference for how music reproduction should be amplified. linear tubes! and that is my view of the darTZeel’s i have now, and how i view the Berning.
Of all the various posters here you are the one who has actually heard the Berning amplifier. Not only that but you've heard it in 'your' audio system. You are very impressed with it. I do not doubt its excellence. The Dan'Agostino and Boulder amplifiers were mentioned as similarly priced components. I've heard amps from both brands but only under audio show conditions. Are you familiar enough with either to render an opinion as to how they compare to the Berning?
Maybe the Jadis has over $10k in parts, maybe, but definitely not the Berning.
(EDIT: I take back what I said, those Jadis amps are from 1997, they're worthless.)
I suggest the OP contact the sellers & see if they will let you audition the equipment. Buying them blind without being able to return them is beyond silly.
You might end up paying $80,000 for something that doesn’t sound any better than a $6,000 amplifier & you won’t be able to resell it for 1/8th of the price.
$80k is Dan D’Agostino & Boulder money, which at the very least look to have parts worth money.
Interesting place. I contacted them months ago about their ATC SCM50 ASL powered speakers (still listed) and they had no interest whatsoever in moving on what appeared to be a high’ish price compared to what those speakers typically sell for used. At the time, I had the impression they were building inventory. The pictures and equipment on their store site look cool.
Looking at the Skyfi site and prices listed for some items I am familiar with, I think there is room to haggle price on most of their items perhaps up to as much as 30% or so, maybe more depending on how badly they want to sell.
hI, with all respect to op and to the rest of the posts i do not dismiss or snob or don't care but i would not buy an 80k amp and support it every year with so much money on tubes. I do not even have the space for it. On the other hand i believe its a dream for some and was for me in the past. I have the listening experience with Jadis (more) and Futterman h-3a . Today If i wished to go back to tubed power amplifiers i would consider buying a smaller Jadis or a Kondo or a Mactone.
There were 2 or 3 items I was looking for that Sky Fi was selling but I am blocked from the site because I called them out on a blatant lie in one of their offerings. The items are still for sale. Too bad as I really wanted them.
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