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Where does "MidFi" differ from "HiFi" or "LOFI"?
Given the vast range of product and costs thereof in this industry, I'm curious where the "break points" are between levels of fidelity? Equipment can range from $100's to $100,000s+, so where is "MIDFI" vs. "HIFI"?
The ear hears from a range of 20-20,000HZ, but mid-range is certainly not at the 10,000HZ level.
just curious what you all think.
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@ghdprentice , that was a really interesting experience how your headphone system raised the bar. When I was considering adding a tube pre to my HT system I took your advice to keep systems that are different separate. You made a great call and all I did was improve the signal going into my processor (iFi SPDIF iPurifier, being fed by a Pangea toslink and Pangea ethernet cable). This was inexpensive, simple, but what it did was raise the performance of my multichannel/stereo listening on that system by reducing jitter and noise. This is what led me to the headphone question I asked. Black Ice audio is releasing Jim Fosgate designed headphone amp this summer, its tube based, has a dac, and I think THIS is how I get a tube based system. Thanks for posting.
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@jasonbourne52 , I really liked that video too, i made me consider ordering an iFi dac out of curiosity. I have experienced the difference in going from a receiver to separates, huge benefit. I have experienced going from an untreated room with speakers adequately placed to being in a well treated room with speakers at the precise placement per dolby specs, huge upgrade. Power, cables, and source upgrades have been incremental. I know better performance is out there, the sad thing is no matter how much money you spend, it still isn’t a live performance and there is ALWAYS going to be better gear available in the future. Through exchanges on this forum I find many of the people who have achieved what they wanted did it through meticulous attention to every detail of their system, not necessarily an all out assault on high ticket items. The DIY experts here will likely blow away what is available in a lot of stores (see @phusis), but not many people have that same passion to build. Its funny because DIY and "high end" seem like at two ends of the spectrum. |
@kota1 : thanks for the Thomas Utube video about the iFi DAC! He is correct that today’s design/production can deliver a product at reasonable cost that is practically indistinguishable from so-called "high end" DAC’s! This is good news for the budget- conscious in search of excellent SQ! |
@dayglow : "To create a true HEA system ... a sufficient amount of financial resources are needed." This is more moneyphile spin perpetuated by the TAS/Stereophile editors/reviewers. They have set up a class system of peons/aristocracy where only the rich can afford the best audio gear - similar to the automobile industry. The most costly gear becomes status signifiers, rather like a Porsche compared to a Toyota. |
On headphone systems. Headphone systems are much less expensive to put together than main speaker systems. In general I fine about 1/10th the cost… obviously with lots of variation. I am not sure where I would make breaks on headphone systems. I should… I spent several years trying to get “magic” into my headphone system. I think, for me it was about $3K / component for audiophile… which to me kicks the bar up to more than great sound… but something that transcends just well executed… sound that is compelling and difficult not to pay attention to.
Actually, I ended up with my current system by starting by upgrading my headphone system to a really high level… so about $5K per component. It was so incredibly good that it put my main system to shame. while it had the limitations of headphones… it is simply stunning. The performance of my headphone system got me working on my main system. I basically upgraded everything and went for all tubes. Incredibly well worth it… fortunately I was able to afford it. |
One area where it is EASY to go from lowfi to hifi on a beer budget is treating your room. Stick high end components in a bad room and they instantly sound like midfi or worse. In a good room, whatever gear you have has the opportunity to perform at its best. So, in order to GET true hifi your room must be acoustically excellent or why bother? |
+ 1 ….. well said, sir! It is not - and never has been - a primary segregation based primarily on an ad hoc variable assertion of arbitrary and highly biased price points. Rather, It’s all about ascending strata points vis-a-vis the ascending quality of the parts used, then the ascending superior design and actual build assembly quality, and topped off with added attention to the features and like details, THUS … the sequential audio performance improvements at each strata that is clear and significant at each step. With it comes the inescapable and progressive matched step-up in price… sure… it’s gonna cost you progressively more , but it is encapsulated best in the the following metaphor: ”… “Price is what you pay, value is what you get.” - Warren Buffet.
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Good link. When someone like Andrew Robinson, who has owned all kinds of high priced gear tells you that in performance level there is little to nothing extra sonically to be gained by going the extra mile (or extra $100,000+) then perhaps we ought to pay him some attention. Robinson has been there and done it and despite describing himself as a recovering audiophile, he has lived to tell the tale. No doubt his marriage to the lovely Kristi has been of a great help to him in getting his priorities straightened. In his own words: I have three passions: my wife, filmmaking and music.
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I look at it this way: at what point do I hear a difference in SQ between two products. So there a multiple levels, not just three. I had a $500.00 DAC, and although the $1-3k DACs sounded different, and in some cases better, I was not really impressed until I went a little past $5k for a new DAC. I expect I’d have to go to $10-12k to get a profound difference from there, and so on. So the jumps are less ‘digital’ and more ‘analog’…just depends on where and when you started the journey. |
@audiotroy +1 The backlash against HEA equipment is approaching a comical level. IMO the Youtube audio community has perpetuated this negative attitude. One must realize this is an important form of revenue for many of the Youtubers that push inferior audio products. Another angle is a form of "brainwashing" the masses that very little money is needed to create a "state of the art" audio system. To create a true HEA system takes knowledge/time/flexibility(open mind) and unfortunately a sufficient amount of financial resources are needed. |
@audiotroy , what did you think of the video by Thomas? |
the diference is not related just to price but rather design intent and execution
low fi is generally related to companies using inexpensive parts and lacking a dedication to sound quality usually sold based on features/measurements
midfi companys's pursue sound quality over just cost usually uses better parts then low fi highfi companys'devoted to sound quality over anything else
Dave andTroy audio intellect NJ |
@ghdprentice : so for you $30K for streamer, DAC, preamp, amp, speakers is the transition from mid-fi to hi-fi? And the next level up is $10K per component? You must be reading too many TAS/Stereophile articles and ads! See my post above! |
As often the case i agree with ghdprentice 's math and logic with respect to what is high end. With each component in that price segment and above you should notice real improvements if you are moving up from. Decent mid fi gear. The first real Hi Fi piece I really ever owned was the Zesto Leto preamp. That thing blew me away and set the future bar for performance across my system. |
@ghdprentice , do you think it is possible to get the SQ of a system like you described (10K+ per component) from a headphone rig, put together properly?? Budget necessary? |
Obviously there is no clear answer since synergy, exact components and personal preferences mater greatly. Let me take a stab at the mid-fi vs high-fi transition. I’m thinking $5K / component. So, assuming just digital… high-fi starts around the $5K… so $5K for streamer, $5K for DAC, $5K for Preamp, and $5K for the amp, and say $10K speakers. There are a lot of caveats, they must be well chosen to find the best available, and synergistic with your other components, and are in line with your personal preferences. The next category would be audiophile components. A real jump in performance… for these I would say is around $10K per component… so, this time let’s do analog, Turntable, Phonostage, preamp, amp and $20K speakers. I doubt agreement is likely. But just as a general rule of thumb from my personal experience. I have been at this for about fifty years and have slowly worked up the hierarchy. My current system is around $20K / component and $32K speakers. |
@johnweiss , this is open to debate. In branding you have 3 classes, luxury, standard, and budget. I think you have identified the 3 classes in audio that correspond.. Generally these categories differ by SQ and supposedly by price. I think of budget as boom boxes, low quality headphones, speakers made of low quality plastic, etc. I think of midfi as gear that sounds better than budget and is sometimes found in big box retailers such as receivers, CD players, and the type of speakers that sound good, but not as good as reference class speakers you would find in a store that specializes in audio equipment. High end gear is made of high quality parts (hopefully), sounds less like a bad recording and more like what the engineer heard in the studio. Sometimes gear is priced accordingly and sometimes budget or midfi gear ends up sounding closer to the high end category. That is a NEW category often referred to as "giant killer". Most members here like "giant killers" when they can find it. See this thread for examples:
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