Whats the FATTEST sounding Tube amp to warm up Lean speakers?
What would you say is the fattest, warmest fullest sounding Tube amp to fatten up Merlin VSM's?
They are 8 ohm, and easy to drive. 30wpc would do.
From my understanding, through reading here, the Famous match with AtmaSphere s30 actually doubles up on the natural detailed and spacious yet lean character of the Merlins.
Which Amp would do the opposite - be a little forgiving and sweet in the higher mids and fatter and fuller in the lower mids?
Hey Tubegroover, great to hear from you! All good here less that "bug" I have to try the Joseph Audio Perspectives in my set up. This will probably pass as they fortunately/unfortunately (take your pick) seldom come onto the used market. I'll take 2 aspirins and chill-out. :-)
Your Quickies are built like tanks an are lifetime keepers. Your in great shape.
Concourr with your sentiments about designers driven by continued design improvements and their products integrity. They are the brands to own IMO as well.
JE & Merlin owners can rejoice and rest assured having rich @Signature Sound to carry the torch for these brands. Besides his EE background, he's very knowledgeable with both product lines and been there from the get-go with Bobby & Jud Barber. No one is more qualified to be in this postion than rich
Disclaimer: I have know rick for 20 years and done and will do future business with him for this reason alone although he's also a good dealer and fair and honest person to deal with. Also, characteristics of people we all enjoy doing business with on a continued basis.
In the case Of Merlins, they really like Cardas. Bobby really loved the Cardas Clear SE and Golden Reference both in interconnect and speaker cabling. Also, JPS labs Superconductor and Aluminata.
Hey Joneil, thanks for that update! As from others as well, the Music Reference are next on my on my radar if ever again the itch rears it’s head. Love my Quicksilvers for now and possibly ever as it seems you are with your RM9s, ain’t life grand!
Roger, David Berning, Ralph Karsten and Mike Sanders have been at this for decades, dilligently improving their designs with each personally involved. This is what I place value on when considering any audio product, personal committment from the owner/designer.
@tzh21y CAT amps do sound great with Merlins. I have heard the combo several times (Merlin and CAT demo’d Together at shows HiFi shows in the mid 2000’s) and I know of at least one VSM owner off the top of my head who has CAT amp on his Merlins.
Joule Electra OTLs also sound pretty darn great on Merlins too (you are right @nightfall certainly not lean) :-) I know there are plenty of folks out there still using Joule gear on Merlins.
Joule amps have been called many things, but lean is certainly not one of them. They would add what you are looking for, in spades, while also preserving solid bass, and dynamics.
Conrad Johnson MV55 (I owned that for quite a while - very warm, rich tube sound).
And, believe it or not...an Eico HF81!
They are astonishingly magical little 14W amps that *sound* much bigger and tend to fill out the region you want to fill out. They are lush, yet still have sparkle and snap. I have an Eico and every time I put it in my system it really tugs at my loyalty to my bigger CJ Premier 12s.(I've used the Eico to drive everything from small monitors, to big floor standing Thiel 3.7s, and brutal low sensitivity MBL omni monitors, and everything has sounded fantastic).
They tend to run from around $250 for "just out of the trash can" condition but still working, to $1,200 if it's been refurbished and spiffed up (and anything in between). But even the out-of-the-trash Eicos can sound fantastic (my pal has one too).
There's one on audiogon right now for $250. You could grab it to see if it does anything for you, and if it grabs you, then there's an upgrade path.
Thanks. Went with Joule Electra. Sounds great. A bit noisy and a bit fussy but worth it for now. When summee comea ill need to replace them with cool running amps but for nyc winter they double as my space heaters.
I'm probably one of the former JE 100 mono users that tubegroover is speaking about. I owned RM9 Mk1(serial 016) from late 80's until early late 90's. Roger updated it and I was quote happy. RM9 Mk1.5 was an excellent match wit the Merlins in every iteration Bobby P (RIP) produced.
I then ran down the OTL rabbit hole, first with Berning Zh 270 stock and then heavily modded, unique it every sense of that word, but it could never deliver the dynamic contrasts I feel are necessary.
Couple of years passed, and next the JE 100 monos in Music Wood. Excellent sound, little noisy and fussy but man they delivered musical textures, contrasts & nuances like no other. But then of course there was the heat.....and anyone who's ever owned them understands...yea, the heat...My dedicated room (20x14) 4 months a year (summer) was unlistenable. Windows open, fans, the AC was the only cure and even then still very, very warm.
The JE needed service. Jud was in transition and my original idea was to purchase a MR RM 10 as a 'summer amp" to drive the speakers and use while Signature Sound serviced the JE.
2010, I Called Roger, the RM10 "sort of" worked but not well with the Bam in the circuit. Roger had a rebuild of RM9 Mk II and a RM9SE available. I auditioned the SE and immediately was seduced with its magical midrange, effortless reproduction and its solid well built quality. Mark that amp SOLD!!
After the JE 100 came back from repair from Rich at Sig Sound, I A/B the two amps over the next 10 months and the JE were put up for sale and sold quickly. 8 years later and I couldn't be happier back in the RM9 camp. The SE is a statement piece. Hand built like a fine watch, point to point wiring, hand wound transformers and a way to check each and every tube with a volt meter to trouble shoot if there are any issues. Built to last a lifetime.
Duder, I own the VSM-BM I changed the speaker wire. 3rd time was a charm Also be aware of the recording. Run the BAM on battery this helps 4% better ( that's a Bobby thing %% )But I forget to use it a lot or forget to switch it back Not sure how old the post is.
They cannot fix a
difficiency in an amplifier's design. The resistance of the series
chokes adds to the resistances in the primary circuit. They add yet
another power cord and socket,more resistance. Here we are trying to
lower the resistance in the primary and then go and add perhaps more
than we have subtracted.
Do any power conditioners give their effective series resistance?
@ramtubesNot all power conditioners are the same!! However most offered to high end audio seem to be so much junk. There are some that have no series chokes at all, but still are able to provide a pure sine wave at full power, which can be quite a lot.
You might want to take a look at some of the Elgar power conditioners like the 3006 series and you will see what I mean.
I just rolled out some well matured Brimar 6L6GCs and put in some lightly used Valve Art KT66s. The Brimars sound raunchier but a little lean. The Valve Arts have a much better bottom end but sound airier as well. These will be staying put for quite some time I'd say. Hope this helped.
@xti16 Nothing wrong with sharing your impressions! Lots of nice 6550/KT88 tubes (new and old) types to chose from - I hear some of the new production (reproduction?) stuff being made today is quite good.:-)
With the 6C33 all we got are those tubes mostly made in the Soviet era by a few different facilities in Russia... fortunately its a pretty good souding tube (IMO) in general, so the best bet for tube rolling in a Joule amp are the front end tubes (6922, 5751, 6350)
@signaturesound Guess I should have looked at the specs for the amp first but at least I got share my impressions of some of the different output tubes I have.
@xti16 All Joule-Electra power amplifiers (excluding the very few hybrid integrated amps Joule made which were solid state ouput) used the Russian 6C33 output tube. Most all were made in the Soviet era IIRC.
@drumbeatCongrats on the Joules!! Curious what type and brand of output tubes does it comes with? I ask because I've seen replies stating 6550 - KT88 etc (myself included). When I mentioned TS 6550 solid plate vintage I did because they are very warm sounding. SED 6550 on the other hand are very linear where the SED KT88 is very warm. Vintage GEC KT88's are also a very linear and clear sound. Current production Gold Lion KT88 are in the middle leaning slightly leaning toward a linear sound. What I'm trying to say is you can't state a type of tube (6550/KT88) has a specific sound characteristic.
Just fired up the Joule electra 100 amps. Wow- what a sound! Im starting to be happy. I think the Merlins are an acquired taste... But the 15" Sub i bought definitely helps for real earth shaking when needed. I just need to add the EQ for some sweetening and im a happy camper.
Former Merlin VSM owner. The Merlin's do a lot of things right and they can be very seductive but their lean bass drove me nuts. I went down a similar path that your are now traveling and I can tell you how it will end.....with a Merlin for sale ad here on Audiogon.
I have experimented with my system and can say there are amny things that contribute to lean sound. So the problem may partly be the speakers inherent nature, however there are plenty of things that an accentuate the problem.
I agree on #4, no power conditioners.
They cannot fix a difficiency in an amplifier's design. The resistance of the series chokes adds to the resistances in the primary circuit. They add yet another power cord and socket,more resistance. Here we are trying to lower the resistance in the primary and then go and add perhaps more than we have subtracted.
Do any power conditioners give their effective series resistance?
I've been to many shows and always very impressed with the Merlin's... I've heard them driven by Joule and Atmasphere and would not venture from those two brands based on what my ears told me.
Thing is this speaker appeals to me in many ways but not all.
Since this is the biggest most cumbersome piece in the chain, im trying to adjust to it before i give up and continue schlepping more speakers that may or may not work in my room... But essentially of course you are right...
The Mid Monos are designed around EL34 and that's what I'm using now...
KT 88 does sound "fatter" , but it's always best to have a speaker that appeals to your listening tastes rather than trying different gear to "tune" them
I never found that I could enjoy that speaker. To me they were bright and forward. The Esoter tweeter I believe. Not sure they are worth curing. Easier to sell the speaker and replace. Lots of classical music fans like them because you can play them at low levels and not feel like you are loosing much.
These are my opinions based on owning a pair and pairing them with Joule Electra and Atmosphere and even Sophia Electric 300B ( without the Bam )
I'm surprised no one has mentioned HH Scott tube gear. Especially when people are mentioning Dynaco. IMHO Scott absolutely SMOKES Dynaco ST-70 in every way possible. If you're looking for that fat tube sound, and want to hear some "magic", or "emotion" in your music. Especially with a bright, or lean speaker. They fatten/smooth them right up, and are just amazing to me. I just picked up another one this past week actually, a restored 340B receiver from 1964.
First time I heard the Dynaco. I kept thinking. "This is it? This is what I've heard about, by so many people? Where's the magic?". And this was on a nice, and very rare, vintage pair of Jensen's I went to look at, along with the Dynaco. I didn't buy either. But oddly enough, the same seller had a B&K ST something, or other. I think it was a bigger model then the original 140. On the same Emotiva preamp, but playing through old KLH Model Ten's (which I've never seen before, or since), that blew me away. And my dumb arse, being new to this at the time, walked away without the KLH 10's that he was selling for only $75. I'm still kicking myself for that one.
I would also think about a parallel SET amp that's fat sounding (not a Mastersound Box obviously), or maybe an 845 SET. Some of them are fat too I've read. The parallel SET from Musical Paradise (forget the model) is supposed to be a little on the fat side, but have a really nice "you are there" sound. And I wouldn't be surprised if they had a good return policy. They're known for great customer service. It's a 55 watt per channel Integrated one. Oh heck, hold on, I'll find the link. Here you go.
I bought a pair of Merlin VSM speakers from Bobby in 1999-ish... I'd have to check the receipt to remember for sure. He upgraded them once and they had better bass as a result. In 2001, I bought a Joule VZN-80 amp. Why? Well, my wife and I went to the CES show that January and I'd heard the Joule stuff with the Merlins. Hear that, like that, get that... It wasn't a hard decision when you've heard the solution. Pay The Man.
I am not an expert... but I do know the Merlins are a "damped" speaker design. They don't need help from an amplifier with a high damping factor and tons of feedback to control the low end. If you match an amp that is more inclined to low end control (high damping factor) it may sound "lean". "My Merlins" are not "lean".
My Joule VZN-80 has a dial to adjust feedback. There is a reason why it's never been on anything but "all the way to the left"... ZERO FEEDBACK.
If your amp is trying to bully your VSMs with too much damping, it will hide the magic. By the way... that BAM module makes the midrange you seek even better since it filters frequencies that driver can't produce anyway. The BAM doesn't just help the low end... it also helps make the speakers more accurate by not asking them to do things it can't do.
That's one thing I do remember Bobby telling me...
just had a thought. a used accuphase integrated amp would give you tone controls almost guaranteed to be centered at 100hz(bass control)which is ideal for midbass enhancement. overall going to sound great as well.
may not suit you but the price of ARC ref75’s on audiogon have to be one of the best deals i’ve seen. a truly great tube amp with plenty of mojo. i’m no ARC fanboy but bought one to try out and very impressed and i’ve had some great amps. btw moving the speakers closer together increases mid bass output just as closer to back wall does the same. i bet you already knew this. good luck
I agree with much of what has already been posted. Finding the right mix per budget, I would aim a little higher on the power side to provide the dynamic headroom.
Be careful what you ask for with the Merlins. Along with fat, full and warm you most likely will also get slow and syrupy. I have 2 pairs of Merlins and have run them with several different amps, including some older CJ amps. With Premier 12's and a Premier 16 pre, for example, the sound I believe was as you describe you want. But along with warm and full I did get a much slower sound. Warmer tubes, like Mullards, accentuated it even more.
Currently I'm using an Atma S30 with one pair and a Pass Int 60 with the other and like both more than the older CJ sound but that's me. I don't believe you'll get to where you want to be with an OTL, but with Pass you might. See if you can find an older Pass Int 30 unless you have a large room or play loudly. Then the 30 will be under powered.
OP, you didn't mention what preamp/amp you currently have in your system but if the equalizer did not solve your issue, a tube preamp can also add lots of "syrup" to the mix, sometimes even more than a tube amp.
@ salectric- I’ve been using a Cary SLM-100 pair, for close to 15 years now. The last thing they are is colored(warm/fat sounding). Cary offered Jensen’s copper foil/PIO caps, as an("upgrade") option in their amps, but- Carys are not known(typically) for coloring the music they reproduce. Of course(again), tube choices can make a big difference.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
