You're under no obligation to justify your purchase. Its your time and money to do with as you please.
"so it made me want to hear them for myself"
But since you are posting, that's the best possible reason to do what you did. |
And that's what attracted me to these speakers is the unusual look and the claims on the speakers performance.so it made me want to hear them for myself, and I hear what everyone's saying because I have my doubts also, but willing to give them a shot. I'm out nothing if they don't meet my standards, except a trip to the post office to return them. |
Actually, seeing its only a 5.25" woofer, its a pretty safe bet not much is happening at 42hz. Also ribbon/folded ribbon tweets like that used are inherently directional as well I read. So the small size and seemingly directional design should help produce a higher than average sensitivity rating with the lowest octave or so omitted by design. I'd expect it does what does well. A 5.25" woofer in a $2000 speaker seems undersized compared to a lot of the competition. Maybe what it does it does well and that's enough in a smaller room. That would seem to be the most realistically one could expect. The 42 hz frequency response spec is the one I would question the most in this case. |
The Grand Teton specs on teh website indicate frequency response down to 42hz but no indication of the roll off so it could well be way down at that point. Another generalized spec that may mean little that might play into a higher sensitivity rating perhaps.
Nothing new to see there people...move on. Happens all the time! A least some reviewers like Stereophile do measurements that provide more insight if anyone cares.
Also given the unique waveguides or call them what you will, I could see where these may well be more directional than most speakers meaning more sound to the front than sides than usual, which could also help sensitivity measures, at least on axis.
So its hard for me to say the specs do not add up. Its also hard for me to say they mean much. Maybe if people hear these and like them someone will take up putting them to more rigorous and quantitative testing. Of course that still does not indicate necessarily how good something sounds or not, just how well they perform from a technical perspective, which might be a useful starting point of information but seldom tells the whole story accurately.
I'm guessing the most unique thing about these might be that they have a unique sound radiation pattern which might be a boon or benefit depending. At least its a different twist. I would like to hear them just for that. |
Mapman, you posted as I was writing my post; yes, I concur completely with your comment, "Its not hard to have 94DB speakers....assuming the lowest octave or so is excluded." That is the problem, the claimed low end response with the claimed sensitivity. |
Yes, the discussion has finally gotten interesting. I didn't pay much attention to the WaveTouch speaker earlier, but now I thought I would take a closer look. I don't like what I see. I have not heard them, and while the crossover looks "rich", there are some elements which look to me like they employ some odd design decisions.
I would want to hear it simply because it's so unusual, but I strongly suspect it would not be a mountain top experience. Two of the most disturbing design elements are the flared "waveguides" and the "phase plug" used in front of a ribbon tweeter!
I do not think it an advantage to place a phase plug type device in front of a flat, ribbon tweeter. Again, though I have not heard it, I suspect it would cause a tremendous amount of damage to the treble response. Would you put a rock in front of a fire hose to "focus" the treble? The result would be a splaying of the spray. In my experience if a ribbon tweeter is implemented properly, it's not going to be piercing, but this looks like a low tech way to prevent a piercing sounding tweeter, which I would think should be addressed at the crossover, not the driver... It just strikes me as so wrong. :(
I do not know who Onemanwolfpack is, but I must concur with his assessment of the purported 94dB rating; I struggle to believe it. Look at hundreds upon hundreds of small speakers and you just won't find that kind of sensitivity because of the constraints of the enclosure.
I really suspect the accuracy of the claimed 40Hz lower end of this speaker. In my experience a 5.25" driver in a 15" high cabinet is NOT going to do 40Hz, at least nowhere near +/-3dB. Perhaps +/-6 or even +/-10dB, which at that point you may as well forget the measurement altogether. This is in my opinion a perfect example of a "loose specification", of which I write about at Dagogo.com (I would post a link, but I believe I am prohibited from doing so; it may be easiest to do a search in a browser.) in my Audiophile Law "Do Not Accept (Virtually) Worthless Specs". I would guess the real usable performance, i.e. +/-3dB, of the bottom end of this speaker to be closer to 60Hz +/-3dB, not 40Hz. Even if the driver could reach closer to 40Hz, imagine the distortion caused by the driver's excursion. I can't stand tiny bass drivers being driven to the point of sounding like they're popping, but that is what I suspect you'd get with pushing this speaker.
If any wish to condemn me for my perspective on this, feel free. As a reviewer I have to make assessment of products which I will consider to review, and I would not review this speaker. You can bet that if it turns up at a show, I will try to hear it, because I could be wrong, and I have to face up to it if I am. Perhaps it would radically defy my expectations of its performance, but I have serious doubts. I would suspect that if it did sound halfway decent it would be in spite of the design. The speaker may have some good attributes as it appears there are some high quality parts internally, but the thing is not going to defy physics. You can get away with a lot wrong in a speaker, that is, make it sound OK, if you have a great crossover, but the result will still suffer. I'm guessing there would also be people who love horn speakers who would think it's terrific, etc. The spectrum of what people wish to hear from a rig is so varied, it's fascinating. I have heard systems I thought were horrid, and the people in the room were raving. Go figure. :)
I have nothing against WT, and I have never met anyone from the company to my knowledge, but I have serious issues with the purported performance claimed. I would be happy to be offered a demo (note, demo, not review) of the speaker to confront my hesitation, if WT wishes. But, I'm not interested in getting into extended argument or mud slinging. I have tried to make my comments "on point" sticking to the design of the speaker. |
Nothing unusual about vendors generalizing specifications as a marketing ploy.
Its not hard to have 94DB speakers....assuming the lowest octave or so is excluded.
Lots of "snakeoil" like this around. Nothing unique to see here really.
Yes, if its small and advertised as higher efficiency, then either the bass rolls of early by design or something does not add up.
The devil is always in the details. |
Radio Shack big sale save 9K. |
For those of you who need more handholding, here's why the speaker can never be 94db sensitive.
The woofer used - https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb15nrxc30-4-5-woofer/
And then you have to subtract 3db or so for Baffle Step, you end up with 88db at most.
And if you think that hacksaw'd in half port tube produces a gain resulting transfer function in the bass, you don't understand at all the mechanisms in play. It won't, and that's why the manufacturer produces no data to backup the claims. |
Me selling speakers, that's funny but no. I'm just a DIY'er, and after years of watching all the ridiculous discussions here, I finally decided to sign up and share some actual knowledge.
From now on, expect me to poke my head in whenever I see bogus claims. |
Good to see Vapor, I mean Onemanwolfpack, posting here. |
The mainstream audiophile journalists assault on science regarding this hobby is the only reason ridiculous constructs such as the Wavetouch speakers are every allowed to pass mustard in the first place. I believe that's "pass muster" - which means to be accepted as adequate based on military parlance. But please, pass the mustard and catsup/ketchup, too! |
Jughead, you hit a nerve with wolfman by going a different direction than what he is more than likely selling which is probably the same speaker that the guy who told you the black color will make them sound better. Sounds like they are cut from the same cloth.
Enjoy the speakers and just report back after you have spent some time with them. Hopefully Wavetouch is very successful and wish them the best! |
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? |
Jackalman,
The fact that you are blasting a patent (anyone can look it up) that was issued by a panel of PHD accredited experts in the field shows that you are not close to the expert you claim to be. Also, saying there could be anything resembling a Helmholtz resonator effect with this design is moronic.
You designed 50 speakers that sold how many?
Its interesting how many 'experts' emerge as a fresh approach begins to gain traction in the marketplace. And these with no stated products of their own who also claim to be an expert of something they didn't create. |
Ah!!
Finally some credible, and refreshing discussion. |
If you posses even the most rudimentary understanding of loudspeaker design, it should be abundantly clear why there is no possible way given the physical laws of this planet, that those speakers cannot be 94db sensitive ... not even close.
And there is no good, proven, acoustical science behind those plastic snowcones they hang off the front. Those aren't waveguides, and they aren't horns. They're nothing more than port tubes, and putting your tweeter and midrange inside a Helmholtz resonator will produce nothing but negative effects. To me at least it's clear why Wavetouch has never posted any real tangible data to back up their claims. The grade school drawings they post in their "Technology" section of their website could not be any more laughable.
The mainstream audiophile journalists assault on science regarding this hobby is the only reason ridiculous constructs such as the Wavetouch speakers are every allowed to pass mustard in the first place. Because they have never applied science in their writings, most of you have no concept of it's application. To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing. |
"and how does anyone know if WT is legit or not without hearing them? they offer a 40 day in home. comes down to track record, did apple have a track record? or what about Microsoft and this windows idea?"
That's a specious analogy, Jughead. Apple and MS both offered products that were unmatched and unparalleled in their respective marketplaces. They didn't need to claim to be better than similar products costing many times as much because there weren't many of those with reputations to match.
Wavetouch is not setting the bar here; Wavetouch is attempting to convince everyone that it's exceeding a bar already set by larger, more expensive speakers.
In many ways this entire thread has separated the skeptics from the outliers. If Wavetouch proves to be a game-changer in x-amount of years, then you and other customers can look back and know you were trailblazers. Until then, though, I'm simply not comfortable even laying down money I may get back until I hear the product in the first place. Or, until its reviewed by someone professional besides Parttime Audiophile (praise be upon him, of course, for his devotion to this hobby). |
"Remember, there is no voodoo with these or any other speakers. The WT GT's are what they are... only good, basic, proven acoustical science and much empirical fine tuning. You don't have to defend anything."
That's a good foundation to start out with, but you really do have to consider the subjective qualities that can't be measures. |
02-08-15: Zd542 writes I'm just curious as to why you guys wouldn't believe those specs? In general it is very difficult to combine high efficiency with a small enclosure size and good low frequency response. Those three compete with each other, This is sometimes called Hofmann's Iron Law (Hofmann was the "H" in KLH) The design is ported, to give lower bass extension, which is something but the crossover is quite complex which reduces sensitivity. Until I see an independent test, I am not buying the 94dB /watt/metre sensitivity they claim. Regards, |
The AQ cables I got a great deal on threw a local stereo store closing shop, the mont blanc I paid 200 for them and would have never considered paying the original 2k price tag. and I have unplugged battery pack and never heard the diff. and how does anyone know if WT is legit or not without hearing them? they offer a 40 day in home. comes down to track record, did apple have a track record? or what about Microsoft and this windows idea? |
"02-08-15: Jughead
Audioconnection, I own AQ jags, k12 and mont blanc cables I've pulled battery packs off and heard no difference."
Those are all great cables. I still have the Jaguars. You can't just pull the cable off the DBS and listen to it. It will still sound the same. If you want to compare, disconnect the DBS on 1 set of cables and let is sit for a while. Maybe 2-3 weeks. Then compare that pair of cables to a different set of Jaguars that you didn't unhook the DBS system on. DBS isn't something you can just turn on and off and listen for a difference.
"02-08-15: Metralla
02-07-15: Onemanwolfpack writes:
94db Sensitive? If the Wavetouch is 94db sensitive, I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot.
I certainly don't believe their published figures."
I'm just curious as to why you guys wouldn't believe those specs? Its usually amp specs that aren't believable. |
Audioconnection, I own AQ jags, k12 and mont blanc cables I've pulled battery packs off and heard no difference. I've had isolation for speaker spikes made no difference, and I'm sure this junk wavetouch speaker will make no difference either. at what point does it become status? look at me and what I got. wonder what kind of deals on speakers radio shack will be having? |
Jh,
Remember, there is no voodoo with these or any other speakers. The WT GT's are what they are... only good, basic, proven acoustical science and much empirical fine tuning. You don't have to defend anything.
Horns, waveguides, phase plugs and the like are not to be confused with voodoo. Wavetouch is simply using a fresh implementation of these proven and century old tools.
Also, as countless members here know, there are many unconventional 'tweek" products for increasing fidelity that are very legitimate. Wading out in those waters is not necessary. |
02-07-15: Onemanwolfpack writes: 94db Sensitive? If the Wavetouch is 94db sensitive, I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot. I certainly don't believe their published figures. Regards, |
"02-07-15: Jughead
zd542, actually I was talking about the Chicago Cubs trying to change the subject. no disrespect was intended."
I know. You guys have no sense of humour. Well maybe After_hrs, but that's it. |
Jughead((a battery pack on a speaker cable sound familiar?))
Just cause you don't understand it makes it BS?
Try an experiment running 2 very short plus and minus solid core speaker wires with no covering,dielectric "without touching negative and positive".
Listen and after you hear this you should be impressed by comparison to your rubber coated magnified multi strand you got screwed for.
This is what Air tubes and 72 volts are attempting to do. Take a listen and if you don't hear how amazing this is
O well.
As for the many variety of spikes coupling and uncoupling
this deals with the energy the speaker puts back into the room and these spikes coupling and or uncoupling benefits from not allowing out of phase energy back in with the music. With a little help you might not have to settle for
non full range mini speakers.
Best JohnnyR
|
The audio world in general is bs isn't it? with the offer of snake oil. put these 2k isolators under your speakers and bass will tighten, voices will be crisp. a battery pack on a speaker cable sound familiar? it must work people spend 10k on this wonderful new tech. I think these shitty little monitors I bought are going to be fine, and if not I return them for a full no questions asked refund. |
Onemanjackelpack,
Wow, that's a very dramatic first ever post on AG.
"They have invented an orb of alternate physics which surrounds the speakers"
This is a very astute observation. That's not far off.
If you didn't know, horn loading, especially with an extended center phase wave 'guide' increases efficiency.
Nice of you to drop in.
I hope you're a better pilot than you are a spoiler. |
zd542, actually I was talking about the Chicago Cubs trying to change the subject. no disrespect was intended. Yeah bam wavetouch sent pictures of the speaker in high gloss black which they had to dye the wood to get them that way, and they look much better than the light wood color. with my set up the light color would've stuck out like a sore thumb! |
94db Sensitive? If the Wavetouch is 94db sensitive, I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot. Spoiler alert, I'm not a Chinese Jet Pilot.
Why do you guys buy into flat out BS like a small 2-way monitor using a 90-91db sensitive woofer can somehow be 94db sensitive? Baffle step eats up 3db at least, so at best those are 88db sensitive speakers. And 4ohm to boot, so they're only 85db efficient.
There are only 3 possibilities why a manufacturer would list those as 94db sensitive.
- They don't have a clue about design, and don't realize they're wrong
- They think you're too dumb to know it's BS, and choose to knowingly lie
- They have invented an orb of alternate physics which surrounds the speakers, allowing them operate outside the laws which rule all other speakers on the planet
Customers refusing to educate themselves about the product they're purchasing is all that allows manufacturers to get away with these types of decpetion. |
I take offence to that Jughead. We all know that you were taking a stab at Wilson because I have a pair of Wilson Cubs. And don't try and get out of it either. It could not have been a knee jerk reaction. I think you should write a formal letter of apology to Mr. Wilson, and post it here so we can all bear witness. It will be a reminder that this type of thing should never happen again. |
Jughead, I bet they will look good in black and after doing more research on the internet I really think without a doubt you made the better choice. |
Jh,
"I just hope I'm not building them up for a let down."
Maybe you should take a break from thinking about them for a few days.
They are what they are... you'll know soon enough.
Whatever happens, the main thing is that your up for the adventure of discovering something new and exciting... most people here can only dream about doing it.
You actually are... so feel good! |
94db Sensitive? If the Wavetouch is 94db sensitive, I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot. Spoiler alert, I'm not a Chinese Jet Pilot.
Why do you guys buy into flat out BS like a small 2-way monitor using a 90-91db sensitive woofer can somehow be 94db sensitive? Baffle step eats up 3db at least, so at best those are 88db sensitive speakers. And 4ohm to boot, so they're only 85db efficient.
There are only 3 possibilities why a manufacturer would list those as 94db sensitive.
- They don't have a clue about design, and don't realize they're wrong
- They think you're too dumb to know it's BS, and choose to knowingly lie
- They have invented an orb of alternate physics which surrounds the speakers, allowing them operate outside the laws which rule all other speakers on the planet
Customers refusing to educate themselves about the product they're purchasing is all that allows manufacturers to get away with these types of decpetion. |
so how about them cubs? this is the year, world series bound. |
Zd542,
"The OP asked if we could move on from this crap and talk about speakers."
This isn't crap, this is entertainment.
"If you want, I'll even admit to hating Vapor speakers and declare myself on a mission to discredit the company"
This idiocy proves my point that you are the poster child of INANITY.
It would make sense then that your 'lol' comment was just a knee jerked inanity which has been your MO and you didn't actually mean any harm.
We can move on now. |
Yeah along with gaming threw the ps4, but 80% of the time is music. and with gaming I usually wear a headset because I do a lot of online gaming. cod of course. but I think they'll be fine with ht, but then again I could care less about the sound from ht. |
In gloss black I'm sure they will sound awesome!! ;-)
Is there a hometheater involved with the speakers? |
Wavetouch sent pictures of the progress with the se I ordered in a high gloss black, this is the first time they have done this color, and they are running them for 150 hrs to break them in. so I should have them sometime next week. it has been a long time since I have been truly excited to get some different speakers, I just hope I'm not building them up for a let down. |
After_hrs,
The OP asked if we could move on from this crap and talk about speakers. I thought I did a good job in explaining my lol comment. If you don't believe me, that's your choice and its perfectly fine. If you want, I'll even admit to hating Vapor speakers and declare myself on a mission to discredit the company, in any way I can. Anything. Just stop with the crybaby posting. |
Vortrex,
Your tireless hate for Vapor is impressive.
Over time your efforts will likely cause more people to order his beautiful products regardless of past ventures (many of us have them). They'll find out for themselves that Ryan is a quality guy manufacturing an extremely high quality product. |
Zd,
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol.
lol, means laugh out loud, Anyone can clearly see your mindless comment was meant as a dig against a manufacturers specific comment about a specific speaker. There is nothing the least bit funny about it.
You said;
"I don't owe you an explanation for anything I do. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."
What kind of a way is that to handle the stress you've brought upon yourself? By lashing out ...with a typical under-class remark.
Everyone knows that this kind of inanity is part of many forums. For me, you've become the poster child of the moment.
You're battin' a 1000 |
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol.
lol, means laugh out loud, Anyone can clearly see your mindless comment was meant as a dig against a manufacturers specific comment about a specific speaker. There is nothing the least bit funny about it.
You said;
"I don't owe you an explanation for anything I do. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."
What kind of a way is that to handle the stress you've brought upon yourself? By lashing out ...with a typical under-class remark.
Everyone knows that this kind of inanity is part of many forums. For me, you've become the poster child of the moment.
You're battin' a 1000 |
I would highly suggest anyone looking to buy Vapor speakers spends 5 minutes Googling around to see all the bad buying experiences from actual customers (too bad the company deletes all they can). $10k can get you much better built speakers with actual customer support. I'm always willing to talk about my Vapor buying experience via PM. |
Looks very much like the same tweeter used in the Motion 20 and 40XT, but not the 60. The 60 tweeter looks like a larger version, possibly. The Wavetouch tweeter is the Dayton AMT2-4. You can look them up at Parts Express and also see the graphs at Dayton's website. |
Not sure if its the same tweeter? but I have no experience with ribbon tweeters. and I don't think they look that bad either, unusual for sure. but they look very solid and interesting. and with my amp and the 94db sensitivity I would think my amp would be in class a most of the time. |
I think they look OK. Is that the same ribbon tweeter that Martin Logan is using on their non esl speakers? |
Yeah I know, the wavetouch isn't a pretty speaker but it is unusual looking looks are important but not as important as sound. this is just an audition and the speaker may not be my bag anyway. |
FOr a different approach with stands, ie isolating and placement lower to floor with tilt up if needed, take a look at the larger Isoacoustics stands perhaps.
I'm not saying these would necessarily be better or best, but a different approach that might have merit in some situations where decoupling from a livelier room is of benefit combined with lower level placement to enable the floor to reinforce the bass if needed.
Also low placement with uptilt increases distance to rear wall and delays those reflections which can be beneficial for soundstage and imaging in a smaller room.
I use these with my smaller Triangle monitors in my wife's very lively 12X12 with cathedral ceiling sunroom (see my system picture) and this was the only thing I found that ever got any speakers sounding right in there. |
