Vandersteen 3A or 2CE Signatures have many of the virtues of the Magnepan in an esy to use package. The Linkwitz Orion is also an excellent alternative if dipole operation is desired. If only a true planar magnetic will do, the Eminent Technology LFT-8a couples panels to a sealed box dynamic woffer with excellent results. Do some research and try to listen to these if the opportunity arises. Good luck.
What speakers can make a convert of Maggie lovers?
After living with Magneplanars for many years (1.6qr's at present,) I'm wondering what other speakers Magneplanar owners have fallen for. I'm sure this topic must have covered before, but this site's search engine leaves a lot to be desired. There are many things that I like about Maggies, the expansive soundstage, well integrated drivers, and value for the money among their many virtues. Ideally, I'd like speakers that would have better low level detail and palpability, be less picky about amplification, and have better percusive/ dynamic qualities. The need for augmentation with a subwoofer would ok. My listening room is about 15x20' with a 12' ceiling height. I don't favor any one type of music, my tastes are musically omnivorous. Price of contenders would have to be no more than $5-6,000 new. Of course, something less expensive like the Gallos would be fine too, it's good to have money left over to buy more music. I know everyone says "go listen at your dealers." I've done that, but I find dealer's rooms sound so cruddy compared to my acoustically treated room that I can't make really meaningful comparisons.
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I can't say that Martin Logan CLS's are not picky when it comes to amplification, but when it comes to low level resolution/detail they made me sell my 3.6's. You get single driver coherance and no crossover. Unfortunately, ML stopped producing them. I've owned MG2B's, 3.6's and still have a pair of MMG's that I enjoy. I would try an ESL and see if you like it. Magnepan makes a great product, Martin Logan also makes a great product and each have their own strenghts. |
After long love affairs with Maggies, Acoustats, and the InnerSound Eros electrostatic hybrid, I ended up going to the VMPS RM30. To me it represents terrific bang for the buck. The three planar midrange drivers span the range from about 250Hz to 10kHz, and the FST ribbon super tweeter is excellent. The latest version has impressive high frequency dispersion and you can sit well off axis and still hear a full balanced soundstage. The dynamics are excellent and the efficiency is higher than the ML or Eminent Tech speakers. Meaning they will play louder and more dynamically in your size room. I have mine in a 14 x 30 ft room with a very high vaulted ceiling, and the soundstage is immense while the instruments remain precisely focused and detailed. I'm getting excellent results using the NuForce Reference 9 amplifiers which are exceedingly clean, detailed, and dynamic. Plus they have great bass control which definitely benefits the VMPS woofer complement. |
I owned the Magnaplanar Tympani 1Ds way back in 1979 and would probably still own them today if I had the room and power. That was a long time ago, but I never had as much fun enjoying a speaker until my Zu Definition 1.5s. Like the Maggies back then with a sound un to their own, the Zucable Definitions are so live, dynamic, powerful, detailed,holographic and "planar" fast: it is like nothing I ever heard before. Different sound, but the same feeling and fun I had with the Maggies. peace, warren |
If you don't mind a small sweet spot, the innersound eros speakers are special. Also, sound labs make very fine electrostats. Either will cost several times more than your Maggie 1.6 speakers. Before you switch, are you sure you are getting everything from your maggies? The mye stands and loads of clean power really bring maggies to life. |
Some of the recommendation are well above your stated target price. The Zu Druids sell for more like half of what you have budgeted and do everything you're looking for in splendid fashion. And dealer showrooms are not an issue since Zu sells factory direct. They offer up to 90 days in home trial so you can decide at home on your own time. I use Druids now but I have owned Sound Lab, Magnepan, Accoustat, Quad and numerous very transparent boxes like Aerial and Avalon. Zu bests all of them in the ways you are seeking. |
Here ya go, just rebuilt as new by Bob Dragunas last year...one of the best speakers of all time. Apogee Diva http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1149315023 Dave |
I replaced my 1.6's with Energy Veritas 2.3i's and don't regret if for a minute. I loved the hughe soundstage the Maggie's had and didn't think I could match it with a conventional speakers, but the Veritas do. And, they do much more. However, if I were in the same position today I would probably go with a pair of Ushers. I could not afford the one's I heard (CP-8571 II), but sound even close, these are the one's I would get. |
From my own experience I was set to buy the 1.6 Maggies, which I think are a great great speaker. In looking for some tube gear to use along with them I came upon and fell hook, line and sinker for the Von Schweikert Audio JR4's. To my ears they gave me the magic of maggies in the top range and added a quick and solid bottom end. The tube integrated amp I am using is about 50 watts per side. And the combo really sings. Just for the heck of it I also have used my 250 watt SS amp. Sounds great with SS gear as well. One day I yet hope to obtain a pair of maggies as well. But I would not give up my Vons. |
Thanks to all for the suggestions so far. Several of those mentioned are models that I have on my short list and there are others that are new to me. There is certainly quite a range of varied technologies represented amongst those mentioned. Re: 55doc, I'm not unhappy with my amplification, but as to whether something much better would extract more, I don't know. After being bored with Adcom and Belles Hot Rod 150's, I bought a PS Audio HCA-2, and that really seems an excellent synergistic match. So much so that I recently replaced it with a fully modified Reference Audio Mods HCA-2 that's even better. If I decide to keep the Maggies, I'll definitely invest in the Mye stands. |
I owned a pair of hot rodded 1.6s a few years ago and loved them. After straying from the maggie sound for a while I picked up a pair of 3.5rs last weekend and just took delivery of a Classe CA-200. Boy does this combo just plain make music. Before letting go of the 1.6s, I would suggest snapping up that CA-300 that just popped up on the Gon. I shuddered at the thought of going back to any SS amp, but knew I would have to with the maggies. So far, no regrets, the Classe is by far the best sounding sand amp I have had in my system to date. Bottom line, you might not have wrung all the performance you can get out of your 1.6s. A good high powered amp and possibly a xover upgrade might just change your mind about changing your mind....... Oz |
Absurd ? No need for name calling. Anyone who has lived with large panel speakers (I have a 30 year old pair of maggies and have lived the m/l cls off and on since '85)has a fairly good sense of the sound of panel speakers. The fact that maggies have to be played loud to resolve properly is so well documented that I don't neeed to waste time arguing the point. Because panel speakers have such a large radiating area they tend to present images that are larger than life. This has prompted comments like "the singers mouth was ten feet wide". These are areas in which a point source excells. These are all shortcomings I am willing to live with. If you are not then follow the suggestions above. |
So many of our forum arguments seem to involve assertions about the superiority of one preference over another. I've had ample experience with panels and point sources and I prefer the point source. It's more to the point, so to speak. But the Magneplanar wall of sound is also enjoyable. Does it really matter if somebody likes Bose? Statistics say a lot of people think they are great. When I hear them, I'm usually waiting for someone to hand me a menu. Can't see why anybody would prefer such a product. Clearly they are less discerning than my esteemed self. All of us seem to agree that audio evaluation is subjective and yet a goodly number of us insist that there exists a hierarchy and that we know what sits at the top of the pile. Isn't that hypocritical? |
Had the 3.6's for 5 years before selling them for the Gallo Ref3.1's, they perform and do everything you describe that you want. They just don't have the expansive sound of panels if that's what you're use to. But the Gallo's to be properly played need to be fully broken in, and make sure to have the feet's on or other points. Piano music are surprisingly much more realistic on the Gallo's then the Maggies. I do miss the Maggies for movies and their wall of sound. |
No names were called. Absurd describes your post, not you. First I apologize for my misunderstanding of your meaning of "low level resolution". In my mind it meant resolving information that is normally not heard, such as sounds well into the background. The maggies do this just fine. I guess inner detail would be a better term. But you are correct in that they do need to played louder than most other speakers to achieve this. But I stand by my contention of the diffuse imaging. In a large enough room and properly set up they image as well as any speaker. Not the unnatural pinpoint accuracy of a Thiel, but who wants that anyway. Music does NOT sound like that in real life. Oz |
I had a love affair with 1.6's for a while, then began to see the shortcomings of them. Switched to Eminent Technology LFT-8A's, and did a 'stacked' E.T. speaker system with biamping all around. ENORMOUS fun! Finally, tried out the Apogee Calipers. None of these were enough to save me from being drawn to a dynamic speaker again. One of best kept secrets in audio are the Chapman T-7's, which I would love to hear A/B'd against the much lauded Von Schweikert's. Not that I'm itching to switch; I just think it would be interesting... Stuart (Chapman) Jones is better known on the West coast for his speakers, and they are sonically beautiful. He can customize his speakers to your listening preferences. His number is: 206-463-3008 There is not much on the net in terms of pictures. The T-7 is a three way capable of great bass down to about 28hz. I have heard many quality dynamic speakers, including Vandersteen, ProAc, Sonus Faber, Krell, Wilsons, and a host of other very popular brands like Paradigm, Dynaudio, etc. and these are among the best in their price category in terms of absolute sonic purity and musicality. Check out the reviews that do exist on the net and you will find almost universal praise for them. Observations from ownership of these products: -The 1.6's were the least precise, least complete of the three planars I owned. -All of them improved with passive vertical biamping -People searching for a great planar should consider the Eminent Tech. LFT-8A's; considerably better imho -Pursue Apogees at your own risk; very easy to get burned by obtaining speakers with defects to ribbons and you'll have little recourse to fix without spending inordinate amounts of time/money. At first, I thought I had lost a portion of the sound stage by moving to a dynamic speaker. Now, with experimentation with cabling, I'm finding that the majority of soundstage is recaptured. In addition, the imaging has become truly a joy, something none of these planars did all that well. Finally, I will always enjoy the planar sound; I am sorely tempted to repurchase another pair of E.T.'s just to have on hand for when I feel like hearing that sound. |
I'd sure like to see some mis-guided audiophile invite a live band into their home...try to have them setup all their gear between their speakers...HeHe. You might get the drum set to fit? Or do some of you guys listen to little tiny bands with little tiny drum sets?...how about a nice little 3" trombone?...oh, and that piano is really cute!...do they make um that small? If you spend to much time in your box, you start thinking inside one. Dave |
As a huge Maggie fan I agree with Greg on the shortcomings of the Maggies. I had Maggie 3.3 and 3.5 and they were so incredibly musical but Greg nails it with their weaknesses. His comments are not absurd at all as they are relative to other speakers as noted. It is interesting that Greg describes the pinpoint imaging of Proac speakers. I would describe the Proac 2.5 as the most pinpoint-imaged speakers I tried in my room when I borrowed many speakers from 3 different dealers here in Minneapolis. This was initially impressive and yet it did not sound natural as musicians occupied almost no space; I knew exactly where they were and yet they were a point, not a 3-dimensional object. It did not matter as the Proac 2.5s had a tonality that was all over the darn place which made them way too unacceptable anyway. Perhaps the Proac 3.5 are a different matter in this regard. There will always be tradeoffs and for me, the Maggies at that time were the clear winner in sheer terms of musical enjoyment over the many speakers I had tried in the $3-4k range. When I changed from Maggie 3.5 to SoundLab A1 speakers, it was very evident how much more low-level information existed in the music that I had missed for many years. The Maggies are good but now with the SoundLab, it's a whole new world of detail at low and high sound levels. Until we hear something, we do not know what we have missed; and once we hear it, it is darn tough to go back. This describes the Maggie-to-SoundLab transition I made early last year. And on the issue of diffused imaging, with the Maggies, you can not walk around the room and expect the performance (images) to be in their same locations. This also results in very different tonality as you walk around. You can walk across the back of the room with the SoundLab and everything stays much in place. This is very impressive. I would add one additional weakness of the Maggie as bottom-octave extension. They do fairly well but against the SoundaLab, it's not even close. Just the difference in the amount of air moved is significant. John |
I've always loved the Maggie's sound. The Eminents Techs aren't bad either. Yesterday I listened to a friends Eminent Techs powered by a Classe 300..what a monster amplifier!!! Well to say I was disappointed is an understatement. I came home and played the same recording on my system..which isn't perfect..whose is? Well what I noticed before I ever listened at home was how muffled the pianos sounded. They aren't as distinct as what I've become accustom too. Neither was the upright bass which sounded slow and wooly. The music sounded some what disjointed, I really can't explain it. The Eminent Tech is a 1st order speaker.. I still heard the lag in timing of the crossover. The bass ever so slightly dragged behind the mids and the tweeter seem to lead the way. If you're accustom to it..you won't notice it. A year and half ago I wouldn't have noticed this. Single Drivers aren't perfect but there are somethings they do I just haven't heard from planars I've spent time with.The planars do throw a large and open soundstage, with that non-boxy sound..which I like very much. I've always loved the planars sound ..until I spent a year with single drivers. There's just so much music that you never hear with those complicated crossover networks. Also there's the dynamic contrast. It wasn't there with the Eminents and the Classe. The music didn't have that start and stop jump factor. This is where the music climaxes and brakes quickly without compressing. I don't mean playing loudly. What I mean is when someone plays a piano live. The notes jump at you at different volumes depending on how intense the pianist is playing. If it stays at one volume ...somethings wrong! Maybe this is a product of fairly efficient speakers ..I don't know. What I do know is, I can't live without that part of the music. Without it ..it doesn't sound as real too me. So single drivers converted me from the maggies. Especially the larger cabinet based SDs..infact the larger the better. |
I would try to hear paper cone speakers - they have warmer sound than metallic sound of the maggies. In fact, many audiophiles still think the paper cones give the best tone. Try to hear classics like Tannoy, Jensen, JBL, Klipsch, and EV. I fell in love with their sound of alnico magnets. They don' t build them like they used to, unless you pay mega-bucks these days. I love their wide and deep sound stage of 15 incher coaxial. Try to hear Tannoy coaxial big ones - not the plastic ones. If you like the sound, you probably like other ones I mentioned as well. They do sound different from Maggies - warmer. If you are into rock, JBL 4312 might be good for you - you can get them for a couple of hundred $ used. Not as good as Tannoy, but rock fans seem to like them. |
Zu provides the big soundstage, paper cones, high efficiency, boxless sound, etc. that have been mentioned in the previous posts and they are not especially pricy, although they will cost you more than JBL 4312's. The presentation is fast and precise, tonal balance near perfect, and the sweet spot very wide. They have the strengths of panels and dynamic speakers combined in a compact and very well thought out design. I think they will convert you. |
Do I miss my Maggies. Yes at times .I had 1.4s and 1.6's for about 16 years.I somtimes miss the openness and full life picture they produce. But the weaknesses altough few were enough for me to go another way.For my ears I needed an more accurately produced soundstage.ie double bass image does not all of sudden become bigger than the rest of the group because of its amplitude,same for trumpets or voices. Now I spent 6 times the price to get the Wilson Benesch ACTII's but these babies are so damm convincing that the performers are real.Scary . What about intimacy. How can you get better at intimacy than the Maggies? Well when I gave the Wilson's a listen there was no question. Now that is not to say there is likely many many speakers that provide fanatastic sound.Just how can to audition all of them.So many out there I have not heard and can imagine they do sound good. I just happened to hear and fall in love with the Wilson's. Would I go back, not very likely. Anyway you slice it 'It's all about the music and what flows in your mind' Cheers. |
I've heard Vonschweikert VR4-SR, B$W 802D, Wilson Watt Puppy 7, VMPS RM 40 and a few others. Nothing can send a shiver down my spine and bring tears of emotion to me like Magnepan 20.1's. Lots of speakers I've never heard. I've heard good things about the Wilson Benesch but haven't heard them. Their may be something more to an individuals taste out there and who knows there may be something out there I would like more, but for the life of me I simply can't imagine anthing more realistic sounding than Maggie 20.1's. When I see a live show. It's BIG. It's not pinpoint defined. It's just BIG. The imaging the 20.1's have is focused enough to believe. To be overly impressed with any one particular thing is certainly a personal choice but is it real? When I close my eyes or turn off the lights at night the image of a real band or singer is life like and simply offers an emotional meltdown of satisfaction that is undescribable unless you've witnessed it. I know they cost more and it is not the purpose of your thread, but moving up to the 20.1 level and staying with the Maggies may be a long term consideration for you. |
The timing of this threads renewel is interesting, as I've finally gotten off the fence and jumped into the dynamic speaker side of the audio pasture. As the only thing I heard in dealer auditions that really moved me more than my Maggies cost $13k (Nola Reference Vipers,) I was despairing of finding affordable satisfaction. I tried to audition higher level Maggies, but the local Maggie "dealer" is a joke. They don't stock the Maggie 3.6 and are only interested in selling Wilsons and B&W's in a home theatre context, so I couldn't audition those. I took a look at consumer direct marketed speakers like Tyler, Salk, ACI, etc. I was looking at the same models Bartokfan has been ruminating over in his threads. The only thing that chilled me out on his product was the 10% restock charge if they didn't suit me. That, plus truck shipping both ways would add up to a $1000 audition. In spite of that, I almost ordered from Ty. In the meantime, I started looking at the just discontinued ACI Talisman Se's ($5k.) They are 4 way towers, look a bit like coincidents but have integrated self powered subs ( two low pass 2nd order crossvers, phase & level controls.) After speaking with Mike Dzurko about what I was looking for, I decided to take a chance even though practically no info is available about them. All I had to risk was one way shipping if they proved unsuitable. In many, if not all respects, ACI's product design goals sound very similat to Tylers. They've been installed in my listening room a week now and have about 40 hours play time. There's no point in prematurely yapping about their sound until they're broken in, but my initial impressions are VERY positive. They maintain the big and expansive Maggie soundstage but add the positves of more realistic dynamics, better frequency extension at both ends of the spectrum, more delicate dynamic shadings, higher resolution of ambient clues, and better "slam" when called for. After I've lived with them a month or so, I'll put the Maggies back into my system because I want to compare them again. Eventually I'll post a more indepth review here or over at Audioasylum. |
Hi Photon46, I am also using box speakers now, Spendor S8e, and have no regrets moving from MG12/QR. The S8e is better in every catergory than the Maggie. I believe panels had their advantages back in the 80's ad 90's but top cone speakers have surpassed them today. But still they are musical speakers. To get the most out of them they sould be in a room with symetrical left and right sides. The most fatal flaw I found with the Maggies is they can't resolve the sound of the hall and when playing small inimate solos they always sound big and spacious. |
"I believe panels had their advantages back in the 80's ad 90's but top cone speakers have surpassed them today." That's one heck of a bold statement with the Magnepan MG12's as a reference to judge all other panel speakers. And what exactly is a top cone speaker model? .... Avalon, Vandersteen, Wilson, or ...... gasp, the Spendor? A more realistic comparison to have been made before such a blanket statement would be the Spendor to the 3.6. I too have found the Spendor products over the years to be excellent. But to compare a $3k+ Spendor to a $1k Magnepan is kinda silly. After owning the 3.3 and 3.5 Magnepans (the series 1 and 2 did nothing for me) for 6 years, I know that these speakers excel in areas that the Spendors do not and vice versa. And if you're listening to the Maggies with a solid state amp like the Brystons, you are not hearing the Maggie magic. A speaker can not ultimately be judged on its own...its interface to the amplifier is critcial. The problem with Maggies is that they need to be pushed a little to be awakened and play their magic. They are not a good choice for low-level listening as their dynamics and resolution just don't getting going at such levels. It is this ultimate lack of dynamics that always had me wanting to change....but then so much is lost when going to a box speaker at anywhere near the cost. Since owning Maggies, I have moved onto SoundLab A1s ..... another panel speaker. These are in a whole different sonic class than the Spendors .... but then again, they are 5x the cost. And they do not have the Maggie limitations described above. |
The top cone speakers today happen to be Spendor, Harbeth, ATC, PMC, Living Voice, Goldmund, Eggleston, JM Reynaud, JM Labs and yes it would include Avalon, Kharma, Vandersteen, Von Scheikwert, TAD, Thiel, Proac. I don't think it's silly to compare the S8e to MG12 as they have similar bandwith and price is very arbitrary in this hobby. I have heard the MG1.6 and 3.6 at the dealers and still prefer the Spendor. I would even compare th S8e to the highly rave Kharma 3.2 FE $20,000 an heard the Dynaudio Evidence Master $80,0000 and still prefer the S8e in communicating the music with natural timbres/texture. Sure the Dynaudios play louder and have more bass but you can't replicate the live sound of an intrument by making a speaker with just more drivers and bigger cabinet no matter how high quality the parts are. Bigger speakers bigger distortion and you need more amplifer power to drive those speakers again more distortion. That's why when you hear the big Dynaudio play a simple event like a drum stick hitting a wooden block tey do the dynamics but you can't hear the wood/texture just some synthetic sound. The only speaker technology which comes closest to replicating live music would probably be a custom 3-way horn system. Commercial designs would be Avantgarde (bass integration is terrible) or Acapella. A funny story, a friend of mine whose colleague has a daughter (13 yrs old) who plays cello was looking to buy speakers so she can hear her own music. She heard Quads, Martin Logans, Vandersteen, etc. Do you know she said sounds closest to her instrument. She said a vintage pair of Klipsch Cornwall I which she got and driving it with Quickie Triodes. And yes, vintage Klipsch speakers like La Scala are still viable today. I've heard Maggies with tubes and SS.I agree that when juiced up the Maggies come alive dynamically but the inner detail is just not there. And I feel nothing is lost going to a fine cone/horn speaker. I have not heard the Soundlab A1s so I can't comment but did hear the hybrid, I believe, the Dynastat many years ago. Still couldn't resolve the sound of the hall but leading edge on guitars were convincing as wth most electrostats. And I would disagree that the A1 is in a whole diffirent sonic league than the S8e but Soundlabs would be better than the Maggies. The friend I talked about did hear the bigger full range Soundlabs and he still prefers his Quad 988 saying more musically balanced across the spectrum. Soundlabs will play louder and have more bandwith but what would you rather have one cup of gourmet java or 10 cups of coffee from Dennys. He says they are way overpriced and has known people who owned Soudlabs and have had their panels go down. But he says that about his Quads too (nature of the technology I guess) and that's why he still appreciates what his vintage modded La Scalas can do. When he sits down to listen he doesn't have to worry, is this the day the speaker will shut down. He does like the Quads though that's why he has one pair for back up. Also he has been playing piano since the age of 5 and plays most keyboard instruments even to this day and has helped his friends record music. He is still fond of going to his friends house tinkling the keys of the big Boesendorfer. Good Luck!*>) |
No cone speaker has ever sounded right to me, just my preference, properly amped and it's really not that hard, I don't think anything touches Maggies. That is why there are so many Audiophiles with relatively cheap Magnepan speakers (3.6R's) matched to obscenely expensive systems. But, other speakers that I have heard that you may like? I think the Quad 988, and 989 are sublime. I love the way they match with the Quad amps, really something special. Also, a properly set up Klipschorn can be sublime. A very different, but really involving sound. I love the sound of these for Rock music, and heard them recently with the ASL Hurricane's and was very impressed. Vandersteens are a really special speaker up and down the line. A great idea up near the middle of this string is the option of single drivers. I love those sytems. There is a great muscial coherence to them, and depending on the driver/cabinet combination they can play at surprisingly loud volumes. Additionally, I find them incredibly involving on delicate pieces and with jazz vocals. I downsized my system tremendously recently, and sold my Maggie 3.6R's and I miss them everyday. But if you want to try something else, I would move to the Klipschorn or Klipsch La Scala. A very different, but very involving sound. I think I am going to move that direction myself soon. Thanks. |