What's A Good Upgrade From A Manley Steelhead?

@rooze 

Don't let @rauliruegas bully you into thinking anything in particular.  He doesn't know what you prefer at this point in time.  I think most know what you mean by "musical".  If you like the musical bloom of the tubes, then that's what you like.  It may not be "the absolute sound", but it's no doubt a very enjoyable listening experience.  It does look like Moon offers a listening trial, so take advantage of that and compare the phono stages.  It will no doubt sound differently, and in some ways better, and in other ways, probably worse.  Personally, I think that you will have to search a while (and possibly save more funds) to improve on the Manley Steelhead, but perhaps I'm wrong:  if it weren't one of the best phono stages, it wouldn't still be selling 20+ years after its introduction!   

@rauliruegas   OK, I feel embarrassed to have used the word 'musicality', it was lazy of me. I try to avoid words like that, they include 'organic', 'palpable', and a few others. But I think we're on the same page insofar as understanding what I meant.

Yes, I take your point and agree that (most) modern equipment is capable of delivering accuracy in a way that's also emotionally engaging and without driving you from the room. 

Tubes have a generic signature, it's there to varying degrees in any equipment that uses tubes and there's something about the nature of the sound of tubes that's appealing. It's what makes us go through the troubles associated with tube ownership. When we remove tubes from the circuit we might gain in other ways, but we invariably lose 'something' and it then becomes a case of having to weigh the pros and cons as objectively as possible. I find that nowadays it's harder for me to make these trade-off assessments easily without having both units side-by-side for a period, which was the crux of my comment.

I haven't dismissed anything at this point. I like the look of the Moon gear, I've owned their stuff in the past and it has always performed extremely well.

Rooze

Dear @rooze : Things are that I used for at least 10 years tube alternative everywhere, so I have the whole tube first hand experiences.

" I’m concerned about sacrificing some musicality (tubes) for musical accuracy (solid-state) and not realizing that there’s been a retrograde step in musical enjoyment until it’s too late....i "

Look, if you attend at a concert and the people surrounded you are not audiophiles and you mention talking with one of them the word " musicality " you can be sure that he will ask you what exactly do you mean with that.

I attend at least each week to listen live MUSIC and I can tell you that even with some gentlemans that are audiophile and when we are talking about the score we listened no one mentioned that word. What we can hear from them is: emotive, dynamic power, feelings, even ( depending how near you was seated from the source ) brigthness or harsness, transients response speed and the like but not: musicality, detail, warm, lush, nuances that are tube audiophile adjectives.

Now, I know what you mean by musicality and today in almost all SS electronics accurated is not " figthing " any more with musicality, both terms are true and live together in today well designed SS electronics.

Yes, @mijostyn is totally rigth and I agree with him not because both coincide about but because it’s a reality.

Sooner or later for the MUSIC lovers that " adopted " the tube sound signature will know the " true " that just are not willing not to accept it but even try it.

If at the end you decide to buy the 610/810 LP unit you have to take in count that that accuracy of the Moon unit will tell you all what’s happening in your system and maybe somethings you could not be totally satisfied  and this could happens in your system because nothing could be " hidden " behind the SS unit when with tubes that " hidden " happens day by day minute after minute. Anyway, you can be sure that the 610LP gives you nothing but what the cartridge pick-up from the LP grooves adding and losting almost nothing but MUSIC.

R.

OP might i suggest a call w Jonathan at Ultra Fidelis, he is super into analog and carries Moon and ARC, Lyra…. etc…. Honest and helpful as the day is long. He helped immensely in guiding my buddy an Orchestra conductor of note to a fantastic Moon pre and power based system.

Re your Basis, Randy at Optimal in Santa Monica has probably sold more ? Basis TT on planet than anyone… he will have some insights also….

Best to you in music

Jim

@lewm thanks for sharing the cap choices w wider audience…. i think there might be a decent overlap of our parts bins…. Roger and Richard Vandersteen helped inform many choices there…. 

To the OP - great move… a bit of a trove of NOS tubes from trusted sources - I use both Brent and Andy at Vintage tube services. I might add that isolation of a tube phono stage and to a lesser degree but still important for SS, is critical. I use HRS but obviously there are MANY other effective isolation devices…. 

@mulveling spot on dude… both my Phono 2se and 5se have Andy sourced NJ 1960’s Tung Sol black plates in the power supply….. wow….. and greatly maginified by HRS…

Low cost dip toe into water SS stage is….. Dynavector…on mk 4 now as i recall….. but again….. seeker of neutrality…or ?

Fun to all.

Jim

@mijostyn Thanks for the great info. This adds immensely to the reading I've done so far on the Moon and also on the Sutherland Big Loco. Both the Moon and Sutherland seem pretty rare on the used markets but I've stored a search on hifishark.

Ideally, I'd like to try a good SS phono while I still have my Steelhead around. I'm concerned about sacrificing some musicality (tubes) for musical accuracy (solid-state) and not realizing that there's been a retrograde step in musical enjoyment until it's too late....if that makes any sense. 

Though I've played with a few different tube phono stages I've very limited hands-on with solid-state units. In fact, the only SS unit I've had in my system in the past 4/5 years has been the little iFi iPhono3 Black Label - which was pretty darned good for its modest price. 

Thanks!

@rooze , Sorry for being late to your thread. I think lewm and rauliruegas have a lot to offer on this subject. IMHO the best solid state units easily dwarf the best tube units for accuracy and quietness. The Moon phono stages are exactly the type of design I look for, well built and unadorned with rarely used switches, circuits, etc. With units like the CH and Dartzeel you are buying a bunch of capability you will never use. So why pay for it. I would be surprised if the Moons did not equal or surpass these units. My own feeling is that if you are going to use multiple arms and cartridges then you should use multiple phono stages suited to the individual cartridge.

There are two basic types of phono stages, current mode and the more common voltage mode. IMHE cartridges with an impedance less than 3 ohms will definitely perform better with a balanced current mode unit Like The Sutherland, BMC or Channel D phono stages. Above 3 ohms, if a cartridge has an output greater than 0.5 mv, current mode will work fine. Above 10 ohms a voltage mode unit is mandatory. Some phono stages will do both like the Channel D units. The best sound I ever heard coming from a turntable is from a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL through a Channel D phono stage running in current mode with digital RIAA correction. 

Signal to noise ratio is critical. Even small amounts of added noise can play havoc with the sense of reality. The Moon units are SOTA in this regard. The only phono stage that I know can do better is the Channel D Seta L20 which is pushing $50K, not what you would call a value. I have an Ortofon MC Diamond, 6 ohms with an output of 0.2 mv. It struggles through the channel D in current mode because the signal to noise ratio is not good enough. It would positively sing through the Moon units. The Lyra and a MSL Signature Platinum perform brilliantly so I plan on selling the MC Diamond. As an all around phono stage for someone who is not interested in digital RIAA correction the Moon units are unbeatable at any price level. I also believe that the absolute best sound comes from a very low impedance cartridge driving a current mode phono stage. The Channel D compromises signal to noise for a wildly wide bandwidth, 5 mHz! This approach only works with a limited number of cartridges until you get to the Seta L20 which will mate with any cartridge but at a very high price.  

Tomic, any time you wanna talk Beveridge direct drive amplifiers or spkrs, you can pm me. It’s a labor of love.

I’ve probably got a few thousand dollars worth of spare tubes, capacitors, resistors, and even transistors in my basement workspace. For the Steelhead I am using 10uF Dynamicaps between phono output and attenuator. Between attenuator and outputs to the Bev amps I am using two 2uF polystyrene caps in parallel, for a total of 4uF. Made by Pacific Audio Supply, which is now sadly defunct.

People used to buy used Techtronix oscilloscopes just in order to harvest the TFK 6922s inside. (Perhaps also Siemens brand.)

@mulveling Thanks for the info and suggestions. I'd emailed Brent and he came back with a recommendation that I just purchased - 

Amperex green and orange industrial type 6922 gold pin and NOS RCA Bronzeplate 5687.

I doubt this will take me to a place where I no longer feel an urge to upgrade, in fact I think I've just had an "Oh look a squirrel" moment, as previous rolling with the Manley has had a minimal impact (as you stated in your post, rolling won't change its spots). But it will keep me amused for another couple of weeks while I concentrate on a tonearm and cartridge upgrade. 

Keep it or sell it and buy a 1000 dollar solid state unit and invest the money to upgrade speakers or other amplification.   Despite claims of RIAA accuracy and precise amplification the phono stage is a simple process made over complicated.  An electrical engineer I was mentoring was amused when I was looking at a 12,000 dollar audio research model.  He came back with a RadioShack plastic board powered by an eveready 9 cold dry cell and parts from the drawers at RadioShack.
Only upgraded when I went to lomc.  Still have it and laugh 

I just don’t feel like I get as much mileage (as in, a wide variance in resultant SQ) from rolling 6DJ8 / 6922, as opposed to say 12AX7 / 12AU7 / 6SN7 or even KT / EL power tubes. Maybe that will change in the future. I’ve tried a lot of them, but no CCA’s or pinched-waists yet. You do have to be careful of "duds", but Brent Jesse will get you good ones.

Certainly, some phono stages are more friendly to tube rolling than others. The VAC’s are beautifully voiced with stock tubes, so you have to be careful not to stray from that balance, which is tricky. I had put in some RCA blue-tips (from VTS) in there that sounded just AWFUL (bright, harsh mess) and didn’t "figure out" that I should blame that tube for way too long. I was so sure it would be a good tube.

Like @tomic601 I find the Herron a bit tricky to roll - funny, I currently have the EXACT same Mazda silver plate 12AX7 (best of this type, IMO) in it that he mentioned! I like generally warmer stages, but the Herron is just not going to be swayed there and so I found it best rather to maximize its strengths with the Mazdas. I don’t have a lot of 12AT7 to roll for those 3 slots. I tried British Mullards from Upscale (usually very warm) and didn’t find much improvement over the stock tubes.

The ARC Ref 3 doesn’t have as many options as most tube stages. There are a couple options that I didn’t explore: 6H30 "DR" (very expensive, hard to find matched) and 6N6 (supposedly these will wear out faster in this application). You can roll the single 6550 regulator tube, to some positive effect. Anyways, this is a great stage that’s voiced right so you "shouldn’t" really feel the need to roll. It you want to hack its sound, then using an outboard SUT (like I did) has far greater impact.

The Hagerman Trumpet MC ships with Russian Mullards that are too warm and you can literally only go up from there lol. At this price point ($1289), it’s impressive to get even the 6 Russian tubes included.

In general, phono stage rolling is a lot harder - you will run into noisy, microphonic tubes. Just listen and move on as needed. Also - perhaps this should be obvious - the choice of phono stage is going to make far more impact on the resultant sound than your choice in tubes. You're not going to make one of these phonos sound "just like" the other with rolling. 

@drbond Thanks - I just sent an email to Brent to see what he has. I've bought from him in the past and his suggestions are usually spot on.

Bill - frankly, i was way more interested in what caps @lewm had sitting bench in the parts drawer….and i would rather talk Beveridge…. alas…. been a long time since i heard or sold a well sorted system from Harold and Roger…. ah…youth

I rolled NOS Tele and Siemens among others in the Steelhead. Didn't change my conclusion. Perhaps @lewm is correct about the cause of what I called a slight electronic glaze. 

I'm not a follower of one brand. I had ARC stuff starting in around 1974-5 and carried on with it until the '90s. Kept my SP-10mkii preamp for the longest- too noisy for my horn based system and finally sold it as well. I still have a Dual 75a that I bought new in around 1975, pretty much unmolested, but needs attention before I put it back into service.

My only recommendation to the OP is to try to hear this gear in your system, which may not be possible if you are buying used. 

Audiophile know thyself…. accurate or flavorized…. it’s very helpful and can save you a lot of churn….

Currently, i have an ARC Ref 2se and a Herron with a quasi successful roll of French Mazda silvers in the front end. Neither of my phono are very rollable…

Enjoy the music 

OP,

Given the level of nuance we are talking about in Phono stages… I think you have to listen to an Audio Research to make up your own mind. To me they perfectly nail midrange bloom without being “warm” for the sake of warm. I can say that for me the ATC Reference 3SE is the best, musical, detailed phonostage I have ever heard. 

It is very difficult to find tubes from a NOS Production Period such as the from the 60's Period, that are perfectly matched for the purpose of being used in a Phonostage.

I have Siemens and Mullard Brands which took months of searching and arranging a purchase condition where if a Tube did not measure to a certain level I was allowed to return it.

I got there in the end, one Tube came from Japan ands another from Germany to make a matched pair.

Tube dealers will supply tubes that will produce music and have a decent usage life.

To get Two Tubes with the Four Halves across the Two Tubes all measuring close and above manufacture Spec' is a challenge for certain era's of production.

This is where the real magic is to be found for a usage in a Phonostage, fortunately, these same owned Tubes are transferrable to a used DAC as well. 

@rooze 

Here's a good summary of the 6922 tubes from Brent Jessee Recording and Supply:

OK, SO TELL ME HOW THEY SOUND!!

A tough question if there ever was one! The best advice is to get a few types and hear for yourself the good sounds you have been missing. All of these vintage tubes are excellent, much better than the Russian or Chinese yuck that is being made today. When replacing any stock Russian, Chinese, or East Europe tube with any of these vintage NOS types, you will notice immediately that the midrange glare is gone. Gone too is that honky, boxy quality, and the tiring upper midrange screech that current production tubes are famous for. Here are some VERY GENERAL observations about some of these vintage tubes:

TELEFUNKEN, SIEMENS, VALVO, LORENZ, and other German made NOS: These tubes are usually characterized by an impressive open "air" at the top end. The soundstage is large, even in mono applications these tubes have a great 3-D image. The midrange is ruler flat, and the bass is tight and accurate. These tubes have a fine sense of dynamics, and most are impressively quiet. These are not "warm" tubes, and to some ears their lack of midrange warmth may be heard as bright. I tend to think of them as accurate, and their clean, focused sonic image is astonishing. My personal favorites. The top types are as would be expected: the 7308/E188CC, the Cca, and the 6922/E88CC. The Cca is a very special 6922 made for the German government for telecommunications. They are excellent tubes, as good as any 7308. By the way, the 1970s versions of these brands are excellent as well, in spite of some trashing on "Some Guy's Tube Lore" and other web pages. Don't let anyone tell you what tubes you should like and what you should not like!

AMPEREX, PHILIPS, MAZDA and other Holland/France/Belgium made NOS: These tubes are a great balance of a clean, airy top end, nice midrange warmth, and accurate bass. They are very pleasant, clean, and musical to listen to in hi-fi applications. The white label Amperex PQ type or USN-CEP (same tube, the USN was made for the military) made in the USA are considered one of the best 7308 or 6922 types of all ever made. The D-getter and pinch waist rare types are also highly regarded, and are very quiet as well. The orange label types run a close second. Look for the white label USA and Heerlen Holland factory made for other brands. They are the same tube and usually less expensive than those with the Amperex or Philips label! Finally, Philips (the parent company of Amperex) owned a number of tube brands, and many were never seen outside of Europe. Most were actually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that turned out the Bugleboy 6DJ8 and PQ 6922 Amperex. Watch for tubes labeled E88CC with brands like Valvo, R/T, RTC, Miniwatt, Dario, Philips, and Adzam. These tubes are identical to the Amperex PQ and Philips SQ (Special Quality) types more often found in America, and are perfect if the Amperex is not available, since they sound and look the same. Also rare in America are these same brands made at the Philips-owned Mazda factory (La Radiotechnique) in Suresnes, France. These usually have a capital "F" in the second line of the date code. They are sweet like the Holland tubes, with a bit better detail and punch at the top end, and still have nice balanced warmth. We are one of the very few worldwide tube dealers to offer these rare NOS French Philips tubes.

MULLARD, GENALEX, BRIMAR, and other British made NOS: Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions. The top end is silky and pleasant, without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism. The 1970s Mullard made have an attractive sparkle at the top with the rich bass, and these tubes are usually priced less than the older types.

RCA, RAYTHEON, GE, SYLVANIA, and other USA made NOS: This group is very diverse. The older RCA, GE, and some other brands of 6922, 7308, and 6DJ8 were often made by Siemens, Mullard, or Amperex, and usually are a bargain. The USA made 1960s vintage 6922 and 7308 are nearly always made for the military, although there were some early industrial versions made by Westinghouse and other brands. They are fairly good and usually priced very low. Their sonics are reasonably well balanced. The 6DJ8 tubes made in the USA, and the 6922 or 7308 USA tubes made AFTER 1975 are generally best used in test equipment that calls for them, as they are not particularly attractive audio tubes. The earlier 1960s versions are somewhat better, including the greyglass GE. Their prices are usually very low, putting them on par with the Russian or Chinese types. You may want to try them if on a strict budget, for they will surely outlast several sets of current production tubes, and probably still sound better than the Russian-Chinese trash. Overall, the USA made tubes are a nice surprise with their low prices as compared to the European types.

A Note About Amperex 6922 and Bugle Boy Tubes:

Because the trade names of "Amperex" and "Bugle Boy" have been sold to a USA electronics firm, there is much confusion in the tube world about Bugle Boy tubes. I will try to clear up the confusion as briefly as possible. This company bought the rights to the name Amperex, the name Bugle Boy, and the rights to the cartoon tube logo. This new owner is NOT Dutch Philips or North American Philips, who originally owned Amperex and made the 1950s to 1970s vintage tubes that audiophiles want. When I mention "Amperex Holland" or "Amperex USA", I refer to the original Dutch and North Amperican Philips owned companies (now defunct) that made the vintage tubes, now in demand by audiophiles, up until the late 1970s. There are 6922 tubes being sold today under the name Amperex Bugle Boy, and they even come in a green and yellow box like the original Amperex tubes. THESE ARE NOT AMPEREX TUBES AT ALL, AND THEY ARE NOT NOS. They are either relabeled new Chinese or late production JAN Sylvania tubes. These fakes contain several errors:

1. Genuine NOS Amperex Holland or Amperex USA NEVER used the words "Bugle Boy" on their tubes or boxes.

2. Genuine NOS Amperex tubes NEVER had the cartoon Bugle Boy printed on the tube box.

3. Philips/Amperex Holland or North American Philips/Amperex USA NEVER made a 6922 (E88CC) tube with the Bugle Boy cartoon on the box. They also NEVER made a 7308 or E188CC with the Bugle Boy on the box OR glass. In this family of tubes, only the 6DJ8 had the cartoon tube on the glass, but again, never on the box.

4. Again, there IS NO SUCH THING as a genuine NOS Amperex "Bugle Boy" 6922 or 7308 tube. This bears repeating!

5. We stock the real NOS 1960s and 1970s Amperex (Holland and USA made) 6922 and 7308 tubes. They either used the white label or the orange (or later green) globe logo label, with either the PQ (premium quality) logo, or were military USN/CEP or JAN labeled. We also stock the real NOS Holland 6DJ8 Bugle Boy tubes from the 1960s. Amperex did not make these in the USA. These DO have the cartoon boy on the label, but NEVER had the words "Bugle Boy" printed on the box or the tube glass.

6. Nearly all of the NOS 1960s and 1970s real Amperex tubes have the factory date codes on the side of the glass. The fakes do not.

7. Some knowledgeable sources have reported seeing recently some Amperex HOLLAND made 6922, and even rarer, a few 7308 gold pin tubes with the Bugle Boy cartoon on the glass. They were only Holland made, none from the USA. It appears there were so few made in the early 1960s that it is unlikely any will turn up anywhere outside of The Netherlands or neighboring countries in Europe. Determining if they are real by the date code and other construction factors requires some skill. Since they are so scarce, it is advisable to treat any "Bugle Boy" 6922 or 7308 tube as a fake, unless you can clearly see the Holland date codes on the glass.

Here above is an example of fake Amperex Bugleboy 6922 tubes. There are several clues to the trickery being done here: The tube is an A-frame top getter. The A-frame getter support was used after the Bugle Boy logo was discontinued and the Amperex orange globe logo was being produced, for the type 6DJ8 tube. The 6DJ8 is electrically the same as a 6922 but the quality is inferior. The A-Frame getter was also NEVER used on a 6922 tube! The type font is thin and wrong for Amperex tubes. The Bugle Boy cartoon character is what is known as "the thin man" which was a thinner and more detailed picture, used only from about 1962-1964, but never on A-Frame getter tubes (which are 6DJ8 types, 1972-1976 vintage) and never on 6922 tubes. None of the tubes have the factory date codes near the bottom. This indicates a tube made after 1975. So what we probably have here is an Amperex made 6DJ8 A-Frame getter tube, likely made after 1975. These would have come with the orange or green globe logo on the glass, and standard pins. Someone has carefully removed the labels, put on the fake 6922 Bugle Boy labels, and then electroplated the pins with gold. This attempts to deceive the unwitting buyer, who thinks they are buying a real 6922, into spending 4-times the amount that the 6DJ8 tube is really worth! We at Brent Jessee Recording are trained to spot fakes, and all of our tubes are guaranteed genuine. Buy from a dealer you can trust!

While someone else mentioned that the Steelhead uses a transistor per channel as a constant current source (CCS), it is my belief that the amplification stage is actually a hybrid cascode, with a transistor serving as one half of the cascode circuit.  Using a cascode, to my knowledge of tube electronics, is the only way they could be getting up to 65db of phono gain.  It is also possible that the cascode is derived from single sections of two of these high transconductance dual triodes, with the transistor serving as CCS only.  But since Manley do not release a schematic to anyone, this is pure speculation.  What is not speculation is that you cannot get 65db of phono gain with merely a 6DJ8 type tube.  I think it's a cascode driving a White cathode follower (mentioned by Evanna Manley in the 6Moons article) which drives either the attenuator, if you use it as a full preamp, or driving the external linestage. If output goes through the attenuator, then the attenuator drives yet another White cathode follower, which drives that output.

@rooze  : I can see that you are way demanding with that " bass " in the PS Audio unit.

Fremer was using the WA  ALEXX paired with Dartzeel Monoblocks and top of the line Dartzeel phonolinepreamp, no tubes at all an in true high resolution system and I think that the Stellar made a great job down there that any Allnic/Manley/VAC or tube unit can touch it.

As the Dartzeel or the CH the PS Audio phono stage is not perfect but for the " huge " 2.5K price tag you can't ask for more.

R.

I just checked what I have for tubes in the Steelhead:

Amperex 6dj8 orange globe x2 for gain

I bought a quad of TUNG-SOL 5687WA Blackplate Big D getter but they created some noise, so I switched back in the JAN NOS GE 7044. My understanding is that there's no technical reason why the output buffers should impact the sound, so there's little point in spending a lot of money on those. 

In describing the H-6500 as a "preamp", I presume you mean either that it is a full function preamplifier with a built in phono section or that it is a linestage, with no phono section. (You must be young; in the good old days there were very few standalone phono stages, and the word "preamplifier" assumed a linestage with built in phono stage.)  If the H-6500 to which you refer is a linestage (only), then from what I know of Allnic nomenclature, wouldn't it be called "L-6500"? Since Allnic do not currently market a full function preamplifier, that would seem to be the case.  On their website, I do see L-6500 but not any H-6500.  The H-5500 appears to be the current latest revision of the H-1201 and H-1202.  I ask because somewhere else I was led into this same quandary regarding the possible existence of an H-6500 phono stage.

Although I am not an ardent admirer of tube rolling as a way of upgrading performance, I do use Siemens CCa's in my Steelhead.  Do I think they made a big difference? No, but they are "nice".

It has been brought to my attention that I mis-spoke in my post and am unable to edit my post. The Allnic H-5500 was bested by the Allnic H-3000 that I had purchased. The H-6500 is a Preamp and not a Phonostage. 

@drbond Thanks for the input. I didn't spend close to $1000 on different tubes. Perhaps that's something I should invest more into before I give up on the Manley.

As an aside, I had both the Zesto Andros 1.2 and a Manley Chinook here before I bought the Steelhead. The Chinook was what I would unreservedly refer to as 'tubey'. The Zesto was far more neutral and a little more clinical, but more dynamic than the Chinook. The Steelhead captured the strengths of both and combined them. So yes, it has some evidence of tubeyness in its presentation, I'm just looking for a tad more, without losing the dynamic capability and all its other virtues. I'll have a look around for the early 1960's Siemens CCa tubes, as you've suggested.

Cheers

Rooze

@rauliruegas I agree, I'm also skeptical of the 2x rule (which isn't a rule, I guess...it's just a loose guideline). The 2x doesn't really take into account the used marketplaces and how different gear retains its value over time, nor how equipment is sold in the first instance, i.e factory direct or through an importer-distributor-dealer model. Nor does it take into account the rare occasion when a low-cost item appears to knock the spots off gear costing way, way more - perhaps as with the PS Audio Stellar Phono that you kindly linked to.

I just read Mr. Fremer's review of the PS Audio kit that you posted. It reminded me a little of reviews I've read of the iFi iPhono3 Black Label, which I tinkered with a year or so ago and wrote about on my blog. That's a fantastic little box that punches way beyond its price of a measly $1000 or so.

It boils down to how much extra we're willing to pay for that last couple percent of performance. Some of Fremer's comments about the PS Audio kit suggested it might lack a little low-end oomph and authority. That could be enough for some folks to pony up the extra cash for something 3 or 4 times more expensive, or even more.

I don't have any answers here, other than cite the well-worn idiom: to each his own.

Thanks for posting the link to the review.

Cheers

@rooze 

While you might not realize it, the Steelehad is definitely "tubey" in sound, compared a neutral.  I had a Steelhead for 15 years, and really enjoyed it.  It's a great phono stage.  As you mention, perhaps, you should tube roll:  the 5687 and the 6922 both make a sonic difference.  But you'll probably need to spend $1,000 in 6922 to get a real improvement (early 1960's Siemens CCa tubes).  The currrent based phono stages are much more neutral and precise sonically, so don't go that route if you're looking for more bloom.  Regardless, enjoy your listening.  

@ghdprentice Thanks for the info on the ARC phonostages. As I mentioned in a post from a few moments ago, I've had a long-standing impression that ARC gear is voiced to be very neutral, not at all tubey in any sense. In that way, it's similar to the Steelhead, which also sounds more neutral than other tube'd phonostages I've heard. I'm looking for a little more bloom, more substance - meat on the bones etc, without any loss of detail or dynamics. Given this, do you still think it's worthwhile checking out ARC? 

Dear @ghdprentice : " my rule is double the cost or it is likely a sideways step. "

Well, it looks as you really don’t read yet the link of the PS Audio Stellar phono stage that comes with a  low price tag of 2.5k and using Ortofon Diamond and Lyra Atlas, SAT tonearm, Continnum TT , Mr. Fremer compares it to over 20 times price tag with phono stages like Dartzeel and the same CH that drbond own which who you agree, go figure.

Fremer " insert " the Stellar in a cost no object room/system and performed at that levels. Of course that if you " insert " the Stellar in a mid-fi system it does not converts the system in a cost no object.

Your rule? fine with me.

R.

@mulveling Great information, thanks. I guess the Steelhead retrieves detail sufficiently, does most things very well, but doesn't imbue the sound with the typical midrange bloom and presence that I expect from tube gear. It's a little bit solid-state sounding, as others have alluded to here and elsewhere. @whart above describes it as 'a slight electronic glaze', which I think is a fair assessment, with emphasis on 'slight'. It hasn't responded particularly well to tube-rolling, the tubes I've tried haven't really tilted it away from neutrality to something with a bit more bloom.

With this in mind, I've been reluctant to try an ARC phono as my experience with their preamps and power amps over the years has left me with the impression that their gear is voiced a little on the lean side, a little neutral perhaps. Maybe I need to reassess. 

Cheers

Rooze

I used to have same phono stage with similar vinyl set up. I replaced it with the VTL TP 6.5. 

Have not heard all, but only thing I have heard better than the VtL is the Boulder 2018.

I am totally with Raul on this; spending more money, even 2X more money, is in no way a guarantee of a performance upgrade.  A difference, yes, but an improvement?  Not at all necessarily.  Since we are all fallible and human, once we've paid a lot more money and we do hear a "difference", we are very prone to interpret that difference as an upgrade.

I like to see what's inside the chassis, and I know what to look for.  In my experience, more $$$ doesn't even guarantee more expensive parts, let alone better design and implementation.

@drbond 

Good point. This is particularly important at lower levels of investment… my rule is double the cost or it is likely a sideways step. So, we agree.
 

However, at this level, one must assume a more discerning pallet and a flavor change would be a big change. Here I would consider a Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and a couple other top tier. 

Wish I’d heard a Steelhead - almost bought a used one last year. What do you want to hear from its replacement? More detail & transparency? More warmth and body? More dynamic sound? All of that? (that’s hard to pull off lol).

• Herron VTPH-2A - This one doesn’t add warmth. It’s very clean & cool / neutral-ish in character. Not very tubey. I honestly don’t dig it on my Tannoys, where I desire more meat on the bones. BUT it’s proving a great partner for my Stax 009 / T2 rig - the T2 amp already provides all the necessary lushness on its own, and the Herron’s clean sound slots in well here.
• Hagerman Trumpet MC - Ridiculously cheap for how enjoyable it is to me. Gobs of warmth and body, lush midrange - honestly feels like it has a mild bass boost. Very tubey sound with an large & open soundstage. Responds well to NOS tube rolling. Works well with anything. This is literally the best I’ve heard my Benz LPS.
• VAC Renaissance SE - Classic upper-echelon VAC sound: very good resolution and dynamics, absolutely gorgeous midrange (natural, organic). VAC makes one hell of a phono stage, especially this 6-tube version. Neutral-ish when using the onboard Lundahl SUT. Not a huge fan of the Lundahls, honestly. You can get a more meaty sound bypassing them and using an outboard SUT (Koetsu, EAR, Bob’s Devices). Which I do!
• ARC Reference 3SE - OMG this stage is so good. It was my best overall phono stage, and I sold it (lol). Only because I went with huge VAC 300 Watt monos, and then the Master preamp matched best with those, and the Ref 3SE didn’t gel so well with the Master pre, for some unknown reason. I’m a particularly huge fan of its MM (low gain) mode. I still preferred my own outboard SUTs over its MC / JFET stage, but it was also very good! It is the cleanest, most linear phono stage with top marks in dynamics, detail, transparency, good body, and a touch of sweetness. Why did I sell this (oh yeah - I also needed the funds to afford the monoblocks). Perhaps surprisingly, the monoblocks made a much bigger difference in the overall system performance. 

Dear @drbond  : "  I think an upgrade should be 50-100% more in price, otherwise you’re just looking at different. "

Upgrade an audio system link has its real foundation not in the price that at the end could be tell you almost nothing other that it's more expensive. The foundation of that upgrade belongs to the engeenering level and build quality of the unit manufacturer and you can besure that the 610 does not envy your CH about.

R.

@lewm 

i didn’t know there was any other kind😏

Dear @rooze  : As you already knew Moon is a low profile manufacturer with a very high quality and knowledge engeenering and build quality second to none. Here you can read about the 610Lp:

Simaudio MOON Evolution 610LP phonostage (tonepublications.com)

201506_simaudio_guts.jpg (765×510) (soundstagehifi.com)

Tube units can't really compete with this level of SS unit. Just splendid.

R.

Find a used Herron VTPH-2A.  Still at least as good or better than anything else available.  Within your budget and worth much more.

@lewm good point and duly noted.

Keep in mind that a current driven phono stage works best only with very low internal resistance LOMC cartridges. Rule of thumb is 10 ohms or less. Certain Benz LOMCs need not apply, for one example. The idea that you never have to think about loading is good marketing but specious.

@whart was the reason I purchased my Allnic H-3000. Will probably be my last phono. It smoked my Allnic 6500 and just had such warmth and encompassing sound. Plus the build quality and tube rolling in the power supply definitely does help unlock more and different aspects of it. You could buy a used allnic and still have $3k leftover for tubes to roll and new records. Oh and I've also read about the old importer discussing upgraded Stillpoint feet and that having an impact on the power supply sound as well. Fun to be had. 

I suggest you read up on the current phono stage and if you decide on the Sutherland please let me know

im pretty sure I can hook you up with a discount on a new unit though a retailer 

I know very well  

@willy-t Thanks for the heads up on the Sutherland. I wasn’t aware of this technology, using the current and not the voltage generated in moving coil cartridges. It’s interesting since I’m also looking to change tonearms so I can spec the balanced ungrounded cable requirements.

Interesting.

I wish there were some place I could get to hear this thing.

Otherwise I like the Moon idea, unless something else comes along. I haven’t found much reading on the Moon phono but I’ll have another look around later today.

Please keep any other suggestions coming. I’d like a shortlist of perhaps 3 units before I get my spinning wheel and pointer out :)

Rooze

Why not forget about loading and go 

with a Sutherland Phono  Loco current/transimpedence phono stage?

At $8200 it’s right at your budget

i personally went through several voltage type phono stages

until I personally went with the Little Loco

This change was the single largest improvement I have ver experienced in gear changes /upgrades   To my vinyl front end playback.No longer do I need to worry a loading and this unit gives me the most accurate reproduction of the grooves that I have ever experienced. Also forget about hum because this design is dead quiet.

Good luck Willy-T

Lampizator’s phono is about $8000 ish and very very good

I’ll second @rauliruegas’s recommendation for the Moon 610LP. I have the Moon 310LP/320S combination and it is absolutely brilliant; I heard the 610LP recently and it is a very significant step up in SQ.

The Manley Steelhead is $12k. I think an upgrade should be 50-100% more in price, otherwise you’re just looking at different. At the price range you’re talking about, you might not get much of an upgrade, but maybe I’m wrong.

I used to own a Steelhead, and upgraded to a current based phono stage, the CH Precision P1, which is a significant upgrade in every aspect.

Interesting case @rooze : you are looking to improve what is already a v. good system, and within a specific budget limitation!

Given your reticence in modding the Steelhead (I wouldn't either), the Moon that Raul rmentioned seems like one of the best choices out there.

Phasemation makes excellent phonos, as does FM Acoustics and CH precision - but they are all much more expensive...

You have a great turntable and cartridge. You ask a great question.

The phono stage has a huge impact on the sound you get from the turntable / cartridge. I would recommend an Audio Research PH-8 or higher…there is a PH-9, Also a level up I have the Reference 3 and Reference 3SE. I have had Audio Research phono stages for over thirty years… to me, they are the standard to judge others. Incredibly natural, dynamic, quiet. I have been using a Reference 3 and 3SE for the last few years, but the PH8 and beyond have been simply stunning.

Anyway, I highly recommend the highest level Audio Research you can get used.

I have a Benz LPS. When you get ready to upgrade your cartridge you should consider MY Sonic Lab cartridges. The Signature Platinum was a significant upgrade.