^^^^^ Let's hear it for Audiolabyrinth everybody!! LOL!
He'll be here all week! Good night, and don't forget to tip your waitress..... ;^) |
Hi Nick,
Your points are well taken. Insanely/"stupidly" priced power cords are NOT the first port of call imho. Sure, they'll make a difference...but is that where you put your money first? In my particular case, I am blessed to have a CJ GAT which I got demo...the hospital grade cable is far better than most 3rd party cables I have tried. But it WAS better with a 2nd hand PAD Dominus cable I picked up for a few hundred bucks.
When the ENTIRE system had been totally isolated (all 9 components including speakers), all cables on 'my list' had been bought...THEN, I came across a friend's silver power cable and tried it on my CJ GAT. yes, it illuminated the treble in a way I had not ever considered before...but it also shaved the treble/mids in a way I did not like.
That got me thinking...and after nearly a year, I came across a well-priced PAD 25th Ann PC, and got it, as a 'final touch' where after 7 long years of searching for each piece of my Dream List one piece at a time...I finally have my Dream System assembled. So, I guess I am generally agreeing...this kind of cable is not really first up on the list...but as a final touch, it has made a tremendously positive difference, and I really like it. IMHO. |
Budburma-I'm just enjoying the banter! The 2 HiDiamond P3's I just purchased have made substantial improvements. When I upgrade my electronics/speakers a HiDiamond P4 will be at the top of my list. |
@ Nick_sr, Hi, I undestand what you are saying, years ago it would make sence, I have a $14,000.00 amp with $15,900.00 1-meter interconnect on it, does it sound better than the same brand interconnect that was $2,800.00, let's put it this way, you could be nearly deaf and hear a difference, it would be a difference like going from a volks wagon to a ferrari, the difference is mind blowing!, about the power cords and amp scenereo, the power cord really does not have anything to do with the amp, the power cord is simply purifying the power, when this happens, the real performance is exposed of the amp used, the only reason powercords sound different on different equipment, Is system dependency, say an amp sounds like crap with this power cord, the same power cord may sound good on another amp, you are useing the certain metal, dielectric, fillers, etc.., useing the power cable to match the voiceing of the amp, the power cord can add it's own character of sound to the amp if not careful, alot of audiophiles are counting on just that!, the power cord adding it's own character, some may want this to happen to change a sound they are not happy with, I do things alot different than this, with any cable, there are more ways to skin a cat here, I do what works best for me, that is my cables are the reference, if a componet does not have the 3-D presatation, tone, sound stage placement, etc..., that componet is gone!, alot easier for me, I know exactly where the problem is when it happens, instead of changing this cable, or that cable, so on and so on, I do not know about you, but at the cost point of cables I bought into, I cannot afford that scenereo of chaseing the cables by the tail syndrome!, cheers. |
My focus is Always on the endresuls. Expensive cables you sell by doing a-b blind comparison. When the Nordost Valhalla came out, it went crazy. I could live only from selling these cables for a long time. It was that convincing. People bought less expensive sources with a Valhalla. Just by doing a-b blind tests. Every person whants the best result for they money they want to spend. |
@Audiolabyrinth, I am not suggesting that all expensive power cords are over priced. What I am saying is that I find it hard to believe that spending $10k on a power cord will provide the biggest bang for your buck for improving the sound.
As an example say you own an amp that is worth $10k and your not entirely satisfied with the sound you look at all the alternatives and you have determined that an upgraded amp would cost 5k more than what you have. Alternatively you could spend say 1k on power cable that would provide a similar benefit. Clearly the 1k power cord would be your best choice.
Now assume the cord cost 10x as much, clearly upgrading the amp becomes the better option.
Assuming my first scenario holds in general, then $10k power cords would only be sold to people owning $100K amplifiers. But now you must ask the question, if you pay $100k for an amp that amp must provide the absolute sound! If a power cord, $10k or $1K, can further improve the sound then where is the value in the amp?
Basically, in the cost is no object domain, when you buy a piece of gear it should be the absolute best and provide the absolute sound, the manufacturer should be tasked on finding every optimal sub component of the unit, be it power cords, power supplies, caps, resistors, whatever as long as it is optimal. If this is not the case then in my humble opinion something is wrong. |
Audio is Always about the perfect balance. Copper can work better in some sets. No question about it. But I still think silver is an essential part for the 'absolute'sound. Because it can set instruments and voices fully loose from eachother. It is also better in timing and gives a sharper individual focus.
Jim Aud is the most friendly and kind person I ever had contact with in audio. He also can discribe exactly what the cable wil do. |
I want to make a correction, after checking the PAD website as a result of reading Sksos post I realized that my comment regarding the cables shipping from the guy's backyard was wrong. After checking the address on the web-site this clearly is not the case for PAD. BMI on the other hand is more questionable, as there is no business address just references to the company's popularity in Hong-Kong and Asia.
This doesn't change my overall disbelieve, why 10k on power cord to incremmentally improve the sound? 10k, can provide a great upgrade to pretty much any amp (or speaker or source). And if 10k is not enough to upgrade your amp because it is so high up the spectrum, then I ask why is it at the top of the spectrum, if its sound still needs to upgraded? I just don't get it? |
see what I mean Nick_sr, they are not kidding, this post is in regards to my last post for you, cheers. |
Hi Sksos1...I was wondering where you got that...thanks.
Jmcgrogan2...I hear you! the reason I even experimented with the PAD 25th Ann (pure silver) was because I tried a silver custom cable...and it illuminate my treble...but also lost upper mid and lower treble WEIGHT. I was petrified of what might happen with PAD 25th Ann...I bought demo 'blind' and am delighted to report it carries ALL the weight of the copper Dominus and Ann Contego/Canorus...but with the delineation, clarity of silver...I suppose the network box might have something to do with this? don't know...all I can confirm is I am very very happy I went with this after getting assurances from the dealer that this would be perfectly fine. He was right. |
Lloydelee21 I cut and pasted the info on the PAD 25th Ann speaker cable which uses the combo of metals silver and copper my mistake...sorry. I see from the web site that the PAD 25th power cord is only silver. |
@Bo1972, I will no disagree that silver presents more clarity and focus, for me though, this comes at the expense of musical weight and bass fundamentals. For every strength there is a weakness. Which is why in most systems I have found silver, in general, to sound clear, and lean. That being said, I have found that pure silver can work very well with speakers or gear that is overly warm sounding. Now I do understand that some place values on musical attributes differently than others, and I have no issues with that. It just helps me when judging the value of others assessments, as obviously no one can try everything that is out there. So I will note that sharpness and clarity is your primary focus, and leave it at that.
In my experiences, it's all a matter of balancing the yin and the yang to one's individual tastes. There is no absolute blueprint to audio nirvana. I currently have some silver in my system as my current cables and cords are varied and involve silver, copper, gold, and even carbon. |
actually, that is not the correct description from the website for the power cable. this is the copy and paste:
Design Goals: Low Noise and High ULTRA Performance
Conductor: 204/60 Stranding
Metals: Silver
Shielding: Ferox 103 plated silver braid 98% coverage
Dielectric: Thermoplastic Elastmer
Gauge (effective): 8 AWG
Current Capacity (DC)
(cable only):
75 A @ 105°C
Overall Product
Current Capacity: 15 A with 15 amp IECC / 20 A with 20
amp IECC
Voltage Rating
(Cable Only): 600 Volts
Resistance: 1.07 mΩ/1M per conductor
Estimated Break-In Time: 125 Hours
Cable Diameter: 1-1/4 Inch
Material Treatment: 5x Cryomag© |
The PAD 25th Ann is actually a combo of copper and silver:
From PAD web site reads the following:
Conductor: Stranded, multi-gauge Silver, single crystal copper
Metals: Copper and Silver
Dielectric: Teflon©
Dampening Material: Ferox (x103)
Gauge (effective): 11 AWG per conductor pair
Current Capacity (DC):
30 A @ 200°C per conductor pair
Resistance: 1.55 mΩ/m per conductor pair |
Dayglo looks gone from his own thread?
So, if you are out there, hope this is helping.
I have to go with jmcgrogan2 on the copper. Most of the time, I prefer a mix of metals and, for whatever reason, an amalgam of sorts. I don't know what you would call Siltech (I know, no copper), but loved that in the past...oops! i/C's, not P/C's. My bad!
Nick sr-Bad syntax and grammar definitely throws me off, too. No bueno.(and dayglo)-
Older Elrods would fit the budget and the bill as long as they aren't too physically hefty for you. I thought the EPS3's were linear, quiet, extended and detailed with no grain and great bass heft wihout any tubbiness. THey come up from time to time at good prices.
Enjoy the tunes. |
Regarding the PAD 25th, yes it is silver...but having been a copper fan (all other PADs are copper) for years...I was very very concerned about where this would lead. And it turns out the voicing is EXACTLY what I enjoy about PAD...but the clarity is far greater than its earlier cables. I have not auditioned loads of power cables the way I have other equipment (like digital). But it works and it works well where others have not been as successful. The premium (to me) comes in the fact that it gets the super quiet bit, dark backgrounds and the richness...while somehow providing a lot delineation. In cables, i have found one or the other, not both. Got a demo price, so that helped. |
In the last year I sold a lot of silver cables from Audioquest. When I visit clients they also have old cables of cables from other companies. Compared to copper, there is more air around voices and instruments. The become a lot more 3D ( loose from eachother) But Also Audioquest excels in blacks. The appearance of instruments and voices becomes much more clear. In timing and sharpness in individual focus of instruments and voices same story. I am a perfectionist and Always focus on the endresult. Most people are not aware of what is missing. There is missing often too much. I explain my clients the difference between the cables. To hear more information and details is very easy to explain to everyone. I want my clients to get a more complete sound what I call Total Sound. |
@ Nick_sr, Hi, Not all exspensive power cords are over priced, some of them, you get what you pay for, total performing bliss!, The P.A.D. limited edition here has garnished many user positive feedback all over audiogon, this one and the BMi oceanic, stage three concepts Kracken, Taralabs cobalt power cord has been said to be some of the few that is considered some of the best available with a few more I left out, however, there is some that is overpriced just like their is with anything else you may buy in audio. |
You guys have got to be kidding. The PAD 25th sells for 10K, yes a power cord for 10K! The BMI is listed here for a little over 4k deeply discounted from 14k. My whole system didn't even cost me 14k.
But wait it gets better, the listing for the PAD is full of grammatical errors. I hope that they take more care manufacturing the cables than they do marketing them.
Wait there is more, the price is not even the price you can call for the real price.
As Don-C55 mentioned where is the UL listing? There is no mention in the ad, no sign of any markings, just a lot tech flex and heat shrink.
And Finally the cord ships directly from the guys backyard. So do the BMI cords!
Someone is laughing...
@Dayglow, I hope for you sake that the cables that you put in-wall have the required UL certifications and are according to you local electrical code.
You can do a lot with 10k to increase clarity and bass slam, the last of which would be spending all on a power cord. |
02-28-14: Bo1972
Silver works better than copper in the world of highend. Define what you mean by "works". I know that silver has better electrical conductive properties than copper, and I have heard pure silver "work" well in a few systems sonically. Overall though, I prefer copper over silver as far as sonics go. So I would say that copper "works" better than silver for me, though a mix of the two works well too. |
PAD 25th costs 10.000 dollar, different price, different world. I am thinking about buying one later this year as well. Silver works better than copper in the world of highend. At the end even a powercable is about all the differt parts togheter you Judge a powercable for. PAD powercables excel in all the different parts you Judge a powercable for. This makes them PAD one of the best in powercables. Or even the best!! |
Have now heard the PAD 25th Ann and compared directly with Dominus Rev C and Ann Contego/Canorus. Basically all of them are heavyweights in the bass region...the 25th Ann was just quieter and brought more definition, less grain to the lowest regions. Quite a nice achievement. |
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I have a big bias towards BMI. After trying many cords in the past, they have been the best for me in all applications. There is a Hammerhead MKIV for sale here and it is an excellent contender. After a lot of trial and error, I would have to say you really never know what is going to match, but when you find it, it's obvious.
Of the ones you listed, I have listened to the Stealth, Voodoo, and DH labs. The Stealth Cloude 99 full was great on the Cary tube preamps I have own. Very fast, articulate and extended with surprising authority. I would recommend that one for you to try on your tube gear.
Have fun checking it out! |
I use PAD powercables. My loudspeakercable is the Redwood 2013 model. Interconnects are: The new Wild Blue Yonder XLR and SKY. And I use one pair of pure silver Acapella XLR.
I was at a audio show in Holland a few weeks ago. There was a company overhere who now sells Taralabs. They only sell what they can get. It is still difficult to get it overhere! |
LOL!
No power cord over the stock UL approved one.
Clarity and bass slam are due to the amp alone.
$1000 for a cord is BS! |
@ Bo1972, Hi, I really was not talking about my power cord, Taralabs is bringing a new cable line to the market place called, The Evolution series, there will be a couple new power cables in the series, Bo, I was referring to the Taralabs interconnects and speaker cables, I have a bit of info on the new flagship cables, not the power cords yet, I am sure the P.A.D. limited power cable is a fine cable, as is all P.A.D. cables., good to see you as well, great review you just done on your new thread, p.a.d. limited part 2. |
@ Audiolabyrinth; hahahahahahaha....very funny11 Good to hear you are still alive!! I did not compare your powercable with the PAD. I cannot Judge, but the PAD are extreemly good in all the different parts you Judge a powercable for. |
Hi John, I never said what is best, I said their is an uncanny mid-band that is really magical about Taralabs cables, The new cables are available over the next few weeks,It's funny that no cable company has the equipment or the know how to make a cable like the Taralabs Evolution Grand Master to have the Frequency of a 32 gauge conductor and still be 000 gauge speaker cables!, By all means, this is the all time referance in cables! |
02-26-14: Audiolabyrinth
@ Bo1972, whatever!, I know your last post is YOUR opinion, I know for fact Taralabs has a better performing mid-band than any P.A.D. cable. Hahahahaha....how did I know this was coming Audiolabyrinth?! This post also is YOUR opinion. Face it, there are no FACTS when it comes to the best performing cable. It's ALL subjective opinions. Oh the irony is delicious. LOL! |
@ Bo1972, whatever!, I know your last post is YOUR opinion, I know for fact Taralabs has a better performing mid-band than any P.A.D. cable. |
The difference between PAD and MIT is too big. The PAD go deeper. Instruments and voices keep the small proportion as in real with PAD. MIT make the instruments and voices too big in dimension. This is a very important part in the world of highend. PAD can open the mid freq. like no other brand can do. |
Check the website mitcables. Happy hunting, you'll be in the right forest. |
Boy, if this hobby was just that easy. Don't waist your money,buy more music that's well recorded. |
Any PAD cable but as you go up the line the bass gets deeper and more controlled (as does just about everything else). |
My approach is for amps, which draw large amounts of power and current, you want a heavier gauge power cord that is also good quality, essentially a bigger pipeline. Build quality is important for durability and also for connector quality as well mainly.
For digital devices, pre-amps, etc., size of the pipeline is less critical. It becomes much greyer what matters most here, but in general I would go with a mainstream company that has a focus on audio sound quality, but would hesitate to go overboard.
$100-$200 max seems to provide ample choices for both categories based on some recent investigation I have done.
The pwoer cord into my DAC has some wear on it and I woudl like to replace it. I am looking at a Pangea power cord that comes in for under $100 on sale as being a decent bet for both value and quality. No doubt more could be spent but I struggle to have a clear justification for doing that. I have decent but not SOTA power cords on my amps and DAC currently and the sound is already quite top notch I would say. Bass slam can hang with the best reference systems out there I have heard, so the current power cords though nothing out of the ordinary, are doing quite well in that regard in particular. |
Purist Audio is the way to go.......sometimes things in life are that easy....It will do the things you ask for! |
Do the CH Acoustic cords and cables actually sell for their list prices, or is CHA like most other cable companies that offer steep discounts on their list prices? I've never seen a used one for sale, so it's hard to tell.
The reason I ask is because at their list price, there isn't even a conversation as far as I'm concerned. I do own a RSA Dmitri, and would like to try one of these cords, but at anywhere near the list price, I wouldn't bother to waste anyone's time. |
If you want to hear the true tonality of instruments, lower floor noise, superior dynamics and the feeling of real instruments between your speaker, you should try CH Acoustic X20 power cords. they're unbelievable... |
Have added 2 HiDiamond P3 cords to my system. Both are in wall, one on the Valve Audio Predator the other on my RSA Elgar. The results are what I have wanted with midrange clarity/detail being the largest improvements. As others have stated in this thread, bass slam/dynamics are limited by the Focus Audio FS8's small cabinet/drivers and to a lesser degree my Predator. Amp and speaker upgrades will be near future projects, until then I will enjoy what I have. |
I recently purchased a Gregitek-Stab 1 for my Sapphire cdp and the results are more then marginal. I replaced Solid Tech-Isoclear feet, I tried to go cheap for me and the anti-tweak crowd(lol). Bass definition has improved and the overall sound is more coherent. I've also come to appreciate the Acoustic Revive-Reference pc the more it breaks in. |
my system was sounding "soft".
i substituted the power cord from the cd player and replaced it with the mac burley. there was plenty of "slam" and some increased extension in the treble. |
Dayglow- Since your first post and my response, we have changed the breaker panel and added a dedicated 10awg romex to my temporary bedroom system with Wattgate gold receptacle. Current TelWire is using gold Wattgate ends on their Reference cable.
The huge differences between cables on the cheap receiver, together with Parasound amp is much less now with the dedicated circut. Trying 5 or 6 different cables, Telwire still good, but other cables now at least listenable.
My advice is going to match others with going to dedicated circut (only cost $100 added to the other work), before any other changes to system. Mike |
Try changing the receptacle. For the sound you are looking for I'd recommend trying the TeslaPlex. I'm pretty sure you will hear a significant difference from the Oyaide. |
I believe the answer to be "none". It doesn't matter a bit, unless you are planning on upgrading all of the Romex in your walls as well with $500 a foot cord, how would upgrading the last 3 feet matter at all?
Another point, if your amplifier is properly designed, it will have capacitive reserves that more than make up for the types of effects spoken of in the above posts. |
Csontos -
Re-reading my post above I agree the differences are described in a way not corresponding the subtleties at play; however, the nature of these differences still holds - and are in fact audible to an extend that I find them worthwhile to pursue - but in a more downplayed fashion than my words would (mis-)lead you to believe.
Perhaps it's the nature of describing "minutiae" details(minutiae to some, I guess), and how one blindly focuses on or even magnifies impressions (in the wake of intense listening sessions) so to illuminate them more properly, disproportionate they may seem. In that manner of "wringing out" details it may also be indirectly assumed, on my part, that the receiver understands or presumes this very context himself in how he would've gone about it, and hereby "reverse-deduces" these impressions to their more correct of proportionate interpretation.
No excuse though, it should be clear what's at play without assuming anything, or at least too much on the part of the receiver.. |
The kinds of differences you guys are talking about require changing gear, not cables. I think I'm "almost" with Bryon. |
Dayglow --
Perhaps you've come to this realization(or not) already, but one way to at least partially achieve your goal could be looking for powercords based on solid-core wires, believing them in general to entail many, if not all of your sought-after qualities to "improve clarity in complex passages, add bass slam/definition and create a more open/liquid presentation without giving up speed-resolution and neutrality ..." Where I've tried solid-core powercords in my setup - in different configurations and wire diameter, etc. - in all cases they've provided a more calm, liquid, and resolved sound. Bass seems notably more tight and yet weightier, subjetively deeper, and more aperiodic. Mids appear more physical, relaxed, and a "shouty" and thinnish tedency has been eradicated(at least over my speakers and compared to the different multi-strand alternatives I've tried); highs are more finely structured and not least more clean sounding. Overall the immediate sonic impression of these qualities reveals a slightly varmer, more full and relaxed sound.
Is your system (star-)grounded? Grounding my system, especially my poweramp(NuForce Stereo 8.5V3), lead in particular to a better bass respons - much like above impressions of the solid-core powercords.
Oh, I'd also pay attention to the powercord(if you haven't already) from the wall outlet to your powerstrip/-distributor. Using solidcore-based wires here has a definate, and positive effect in the same vein as well. |
Hi Dayglow,
Speak with Mark Coles about the SA...i would think he would do a different termination for you if you wish. The PAD Dominus is (for me) the sweet spot in the range. Second hand they run about the same as a SA Gran Corona. The PAD gives my systems a quieter, richer and more seductive appeal without 'adding' to the sound ostensibly. Its just like i went to higher quality camera to take a color picture...hence got deeper color saturation. The GC is exceptionally quiet,giving my system clear, natural, extended sound, not quite as rich...sometimes a good thing. |
Lloydelee21-Almost purchased a new Gran Corona but the cheap Nema plug on a $850 pc doesn't seem right? With the PAD I wasn't sure which cord is the best value due to so many cords in their product line. If you could comment on the strengths and weaknesses of both cords it would be much appreciated. |
