@squeak_king_77 - thanks for posting that info on the carpet discs.
@mitch2 - your system page look great. Is that a woolen rug on your wall behind the speakers? Did it make a reasonably significant difference in room sound? I was thinking of doing the same thing, but also maybe having it stood off the wall a few inches so sounds can pass through, bounce off the wall behind and make a second pass.
I just completed a partial virtual system page update including a shot of one of the SMc amplifiers that is supported on springs (you can't see them) over the SRA platform, which is sitting on a low-profile Sound Anchor stand.
pinwa, honestly I have no idea what a heavy duty eva pad will do. Unless someone in here has done it, I know I haven’t.
Springs offer a broad frequency range isolation, with high amplitude isolation as well, and they are used quite literally everywhere from cars, to gimbals for even small cameras where vibration isolation is critical. I have recently helped a Agon friend purchase a full set of springs for $42.15 on Ebay. That’s eight 2" diameter 4" tall (uncompressed) zinc plated piano wire springs at approximately $5.27 per spring delivered.
Now he’s going to have to engineer a method to mount the springs, keeping the overall height within a a couple of inches of original, and move the base of the speakers with outriggers attached. So yes a DIY will require work and some clever engineering to be most effective.
Recently others are trying springs, from various vendors, or even DIY with great success.
Using springs requires some knowledge, as they have to suit the weight of the load they are bearing, they need to deform with transient energies in a manner that isolates those energies into a localized area for maximum performance.
I'm new to this whole concept of vibration isolating the electronics, though it certainly makes sense when it comes to tube amplifiers, and clearly how a speaker sits on the floor will impact its sound. And there seem to be quite a range of opinions on what works best and many of the options seem very expensive. So here is my dumb question. What would using these very cheap, industrial, vibration isolation pads do for amps and speakers?
@mitch2 outriggers which come out and then up from the base and then horizontal could help lower the speakers, the center of gravity and create a more large and stable base under your speakers?
@georgehifi - sorbothane may be fantastic for the AMG or TMD toppers I have been suggesting.
Have you personally tried it against springs? It's the broad frequency range of isolation that I believe makes springs still the most used engineering isolation system in the world.
@rixthetrick What is on top of the amps now are two (on each amp) of these heavy little brass suckers that Dan finished in black with Isodamp elastomer material on the bottom: https://edensoundaudio.com/shop/fatboy-disc/
I like the Isoacoustics carpet disc suggestion. The smaller ones for the Gaia III are 1-11/16 inches in diameter so would fit a medium sized spring but they are 1.75 inches tall, which may be too tall for my situation. I am thinking about how I could leave the Sound Anchor stands spiked to the floor and then put the springs beneath the speakers but that would negate the benefit of the additional 65-pound weight provided by the SA stands. More consideration is needed. First I will do some listening and decide whether I like springs under my amps before I modify my speaker set up.
With nothing to do and all day to do it, I went and got out my remaining supply of Les Davis constrained layer damping pads and doubled up what I was already using, now with 2 under each footer on my Marantz PM15S2b integrated and 4 under the matching SA15S2b SACD player.
That was all it took to take it up the level of my Kinki EX-M1 in regard to extension, decay, clarity and almost, the impact. It's there, but in a different manner, and wonderful on it's own. It's like they are brothers who naturally speak in different tones but in similar manner.
I could live with either and am really loving the sound with the all Marantz set up. It's not as spot lighted as the Kinki but it's every bit as resolving, if that makes sense, and sounds a touch more organic. Before doubling up, the Marantz came close, but no cigar. Now with similar resolution, it's Arturo Fuente and Davidoff Signature all around.
I've tried various things, but so far, the hard rubber feet it came with worked best with my heavy tube amp - go figure. As many above pointed out, it really is trial and error.
I like the suggestion above that good footers under the speakers might be a better place to start. isoacoustics gaia's worked for me.
My amplifier is 98lbs, and I have my DAC and server sitting on top of it, until I can build an isolation bench, low enough to not get up into the imaging area on the tweeter plane.
I would suggest spikes under the granite at least to try it out, I would myself, however I have already bolted together out of scraps at work, made of uni strut and double uni strut frame upon which to test out isolation shelves for myself.
@mitch2 I have given the springs interface to my concrete slab some thought also. Because of the need to as much as possible directly couple with the concrete slab with my stands, I have just purchased some solid copper spikes to go under my stands which sit on the carpet at the moment.
You seem to get my point of not having a yielding support under the isolation springs, and yeah carpet is going to absorb energy. If you have not got a spiked base solution for under your springs, do go directly to carpet, there is low surface area, another gentleman in Agon informed me that after he removed pucks from under the springs (he purchased Townshend Audio Seismic Podiums) even with the feet directly on the carpet it improved.
I looked for solutions, and perhaps you could look also? I found these https://isoacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Carpet-discs.jpg Something like that under your speaker springs would be ideal, and that's why isoacoustics made them. You could DIY with a metal disc and three spikes much the same. But I must admit these look pretty, and aren't too ridiculously priced at all.
First go to a local granite store and pick up a thick piece to place on the shelf. For this size you should get it for free so just slip them a $20. Then place your absorption feet under the amp on the granite piece
@rixthetrick - I received my springs yesterday and replaced the Stillpoints under my amps. The springs I purchased look identical to the Machina Dynamica springs and cost me about $35 for 12 of them.
The amps now sit on 5 springs each, over purpose-designed SRA
Ohio-Class XL+²
platforms, which each sit on low profile, heavy Sound Anchor stands that are spiked through low-profile carpet into the concrete slab-on-grade floor.
I am glad I ordered extra springs since I realized the front ends of the amps are much heavier than the rear, due to the very large toroidal transformer in each. Since I had extra, I was able to place a fifth spring directly under the holding bolt for the transformers and that was sufficient to level out the front and rear of the amplifier nicely. The springs are not quite half-way to their fully compressed state resulting in plenty of play remaining up and down.
The compressed height of the springs is almost identical to the height of the Stillpoints so visually it looks great - I cannot even see the springs. I need to post some upgraded system pictures since I realize I do not even have the new SMc Audio amps posted yet and they look pretty cool on the SRA stands.
Too soon to determine the sonic impact yet, but t if these sound good then I have 8 Stillpoint minis to use under other gear, or to sell.
I would like to try springs under my speakers which are on Sound Anchor Signature Stands and are currently spiked to the concrete. I have a couple of challenges being that they are purposely tilted with the front being a little bit higher, plus the issue of the weight distribution being not exactly even. The weight is about 170 pounds for each
speaker/stand combination. If I go with springs, I would want them to be very low profile.
I will give it some thought. My other option for decoupling would be to try Herbie's Audio Lab Giant
Threaded Stud Gliders at about $300 for 8 of them. They would handle the tilt and provide a secure connection to the bottom of the Sound Anchor speaker stands. Some here have reported good luck with those but I am a little concerned about either the Gliders or the springs sitting directly on carpet. Maybe I should try hockey pucks first just to see what I think about the sound decoupled.
I have a bunch of iso/vib devices gathering dust. Among them Herbies discs, rubber cups with both wood and the glass balls, aluminum cones, billet aluminum cubes, Mapleshade cork blocks (single and double), sorbothane (sound killers, like the Kubes Ric forced me to buy with my EVS1200 amp)... Some 15 years ago
I had Still Points and Risers under everything. All these with different systems. I did hear the double Black Ravolis in my system, which were amazing, but too expensive for my blood.
I HIGHLY recommend Machina Dynamica Springs, which I have under all my components.
They perform in 3 dimensions and are an absolute bargain
$38 for a set of 8 reasonably attractive and apparently well-engineered spring isolators. Springs are removable so you can adjust to the weight of your component. Still waiting for delivery, but I bought 16 and am planning to isolate the entire system. Assuming the quality is consistent with the store reviews, that's not bad for < $80.
@mitch2 Experiment with a TMD Tuned Mass Damper on top of your equipment as well as sprung isolation, this could both isolate the vibrations emanating from the device into another, or from others into it.
Whatever you use as a rack, remember it's holding the spring that is holding your amplifier, the energy will be absorbed by both the rack and the springs, please be aware of that. The more rigid the rack is, it's also sitting on your floor which is also going to absorb some energy, the higher percentage is isolated up into the springs.
@mitch2 I am going to make a generalization that may help.
50% compression under load is a good area to be in relation to mass loading of the spring. However, taking into account the amplitude of vibrations so that the spring will not bottom out, which is when there is no play left for the spring to compress. Much like a pendulum there is a frequency relationship with the spring rate and height of the spring. So far I have like the most a 4" tall and >2" diameter spring that compresses slightly over 50% under load. Approx. 3.5 turns of working spring with ground ends to have a flat interface. (please be aware with taller loads the center of gravity can more easily exceed the limits of the loads base, creating an unsafe situation. Moving the base out to compensate and having a unified structure ie. screw outriggers to the bottom of a floor stander speakers for example, possibly where the spikes screw in)
If you have a spring that under load is at 50%, it would be advantageous to have the diameter to be at least the same if not more than the final loaded height of the spring, for the sakes of stability.
The goal of sprung isolation is to remove as much as possible the energies in the substrate coming up through the rack or whatever is being used to hold it, primarily from the vibrations of the speakers and subs. Or to to limit the energies going into the substrate into other elements in the system.
An interesting note about the video shared by camb, there is another very good way to absorb, or rather transform the energies that the electronic devices themselves create. Putting a suspended mass on top of the device, effectively sandwiching the device between springs and mass, can also be implemented with great success. For example a soft faced rigid sheet with springs or absorbant material, with a mass on top. http://www.audiopolitan.com/blog/eti-amg-toppers-review/
Remember that the springs themselves are going to be supported by a substrate, this is where perhaps spikes into concrete may help the most. Because the less yielding the material under the springs the more energy will be kept into the suspension system and the mass it's supporting. Hopefully the energy stored in the cabinet can also deflect the spring and make the cabinet more inert sounding as well. There will be a point where the resonant frequency of the subsrate will allow certain frequencies through, hopefully with diminished amplitude. I recently had a conversation with another Agoner and suggested if he's happy with his speakers on springs with his peer and beam floors, that framing up directly from the ground under the locations of the speakers it may make it more rigid and thus improve isolation. This theory has not been tested yet.
I have only been doing this for four years now, I'm still learning, and learning a great deal from this forum. Mitch 2 - PM me if I can help?
@rixthetrick Since you use springs extensively, would you provide a recommendation for sizing the capacity of the springs compared to the weight they will each support? I have some springs arriving today to try under my 70-pound amplifiers. The maximum capacity of the springs I ordered is slightly less than one-half of the weight they will each support. Are there pros and cons related to sizing them, i.e., stiffer or softer?
@jhills +1 for the spikes into maple platform. Between the maple and shelf I use a gel type material which gives me a floating platform.
Re: wood blocks. I used a ayer of cork under the Myrtle blocks. I still had the tight bass and open soundstage, but highs remained harsh. I think the vibration of the component passes to the wood, then back to the component chassis.
@camb - interesting that he isolated the speakers first. I have also put all of my system items on springs, even power supply you can see in my system page. Funny as he said to use the same method throughout, which I also have done. However the stand mount speakers are on wave springs, which are not optimal, and yet it still makes a considerable difference regardless.
I will be using a damped mass device on top of electronics like the ETI AMG topper, as well as on my speakers including subs as I add more of them.
I am currently building an isolation rack to work in unison with the AMG toppers on electronics. Same idea, to absorb vibration from the components, just implemented differently.
@lowrider57 I tried Myrtle wood blocks and there was a major improvement over Herbies, faster attack, open soundstage, but the highs became harsh. Looking for an inexpensive tweak.
Before spending more money, try putting a thin piece of sued leather, just slightly larger than the block, between the bottom of the Myrtle wood blocks and your component. It will not hinder the performance of the blocks but will eliminate any micro vibrations that can build between the component and the coupler, which sometimes shows up as a sibilance in the highs.
It's a cheep experiment, I think will solve your problem without negating your otherwise good results.....Jim
What about those cork squares in a lined rubber sandwich design? I have them under my Plinius pre and amp. Inch and a half thick, 2.5" square. Put them under the component, not the feet. They seem to provide isolation and detail. They were the rage coupla years ago. Anyone comment on their experience with these? Not much dosh ($).
@lowrider57 I've replaced my Herbies with DH Cones. They are ceramic and sit under the component with the point facing down onto a hardwood platform such as maple. They do not colour the sound.
I agree with the ceramic cones and hardwood platforms+++
I am using tempered brass cones that I had machined many years ago and a few of MichaelGreen's (fairly cheep but nicely made) brass cones. I have them point down into a solid piece of 19"x15"x2" black walnut board, using a thin disc of suede leather between the bottom of the component and the base end of the cone. Between the heavy glass shelves of my three shelf rack and the black walnut planks, I have a heavy rubber/felt isolation pad at each corner.
As set up, I'm most happy with the neutral, open, clean and detailed sound I'm getting from my system and have no interest in spending thousands of dollars on someones miracle products that I know will give me net 0 improvement over what I have.
Without a doubt, Symposium Acoustics ROLLER Block HDSE. When I first purchased them, I expected some improvement, but when I installed them I got huge Improvements in air, soundstage (both width and depth), and clarity. It literally was one of the best improvements I’ve experienced. No change in tonality. Everything is just so open, with much better focus. I highly recommend these! You will not be disappointed!!!
Put the electronics in another room ,for the best results; unless of course, you want everyone to admire what it looks like, rather than to just come over to hear some music. Oh yeah, I forgot: People without friends obsess on the equipment, the music. Unfortunately, when you have someone over and you obsess on the equipment, you chase everyone away. It is a never ending punishment for OCD that leads to such things as trestles for you wires, etc.
Looking at the utter nonsense bandied about around here though maybe I am the one in the wrong place.
You are not at the wrong place.... Nobody is at the end... But meditate these words before accusing anybody to be stupid because of their use of bags of rocks or other things you have call "bullshit" :
From "The Triumph of Stupidity" by Bertrand Russell, 1933:
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
For the «huge price tag» of some audio device , it is up to the purse of who can afford them.... All is not bull shit... Me i made ALL my controls methods with homemade peanuts cost materials or device....
Then who bull shit who?
Now this is sarcasm. Do those buckets you have scattered about work better if you cook them in the oven like people cook speaker wires?
Sarcasm is a good thing to read one time, when sarcasm is an expression making sense of something, but repeating it in the same direction without end transform it in a boring harrassing dogma or obsession...
« Sarcasm is like a good remedy for some that you cannot serve all time to everybody»- Groucho Marx
« "Open your mind, create and then observe the results" say someone after creating the universe, then we surely can make the same in our kitchen»- Groucho Marx
Anyway i wish you the best, especially in these times of ours.....
"
Your sarcasm is yours not mine.... I dont pretend to any new science at all... " Not sarcasm but it is a comment about what you have done. If you are not doing this because you think it improves things then why are you doing it? If it does things then what are those things and do others invited over beside the kids agree? Eccentricity is entertaining but does not always lead to worthwhile things and I fail to see how bags of rocks on your exterior conduit does anything.
Looking at the utter nonsense bandied about around here though maybe I am the one in the wrong place.
Now this is sarcasm. Do those buckets you have scattered about work better if you cook them in the oven like people cook speaker wires? "
Mahlman creates arguments for the sake of arguing mahsiter,
" I comment on absurd things and there are many around here. I pick some that I find particularly astounding and know I don't influence true believers to change. I find it irritating though that people who don't perhaps know better come here for answers and get fed a big line of BS with huge price tags attached. Those are the people to whom I am really talking.
@mahlman I was in a hifi store and told the owner about isolation, he was at least curious enough to hear if there was any difference. I put Smalley wave springs (not even optimum for the task) under the best amplifier connected to his best speakers, and he also heard it immediately.
It was when he allowed me to place a set under the speakers after he removed the spikes so that I could show him - that's when he politely excused himself to return with two of his techs who he introduced me to. They sat in there and all discussed the superior sound coming from their speakers they sell.
Opinions vary! I have already gotten positive feedback from Agon users, I believe it's because it actually works. I am not selling any products, just sharing experience.
I use two Maple blocks that the amps is on. I have two 80lb Marantz Mono amps & I have TOTAL CONFIDENCE in these beasts. The advantage in Maple is that it only gets "better" as it ages. I've had mine for well over 10 years but Interestingly enough -I just saw these on Music Express Online site i believe. You absolutely need something "rock-solid" for a besafy amp like these. Good luck.
Sorbothanes are under the feet of my speakers, amp, dac and streamer. They work fine. No dullness. On the contrary, the sound is dynamic and bright. They’re shrink wrapped to stop them from sticking and staining.
three easy payments, I believe that ebm is describing to use the Critical Mass Center Stage as footers under the amp and, thus, between the amp and the Ultra Stealth platform.
That makes sense. I've spoken to Peter before and in fact he convinced me to try the Ultra under my amp. I may give the Rollerblocks a try.
I have tried different footers over the years and was very disappointed with Sorbothane or the like. They sucked the life out of the music. I have had very nice results with Ansuz DTC Darkz footers. They quote expensive but performed quite well. i.e. enhanced detail, focus, soundstage and ease. I also have not tried the Critical Mass footers mentioned in this thread, but I was told by a very knowledgable audiophile that has tested so many very highend components over a lifetime that he has not seen any footer outperform the Critical Mass footers. I may demo a pair to compare with my DTC. BTW I was very very skeptical of Ansuz products and they have won me over. Best of luck.
I work with Harmonic Resolution Systems (HRS) and I know the immediate thought will be expensive. Yes, there are solutions that cost a lot of money but there are also solutions form HRS that are less costly and designed to fit into any system. Since this discussion is about feet, I will keep my initial discussion to that section of the offerings. HRS offers a "Coupler" solution. This is much like the Sorbothane discussed here but made from a high grade specifically designed polymer for wide bandwidth audio frequency vibration absorption. It will not degrade over time and retails at $43 each. You only need 3 to start and you may need to remove the feet off the bottom of your component so it will rest on these instead of the factory feet. If you can’t or don’t want to remove the feet then there are Nimbus Assemblies which start at $130 each and are two Couplers separated by a billet quality aluminum spacer. The polymers are rated well beyond the heat requirements of an audio amplifier, and also will hold the weight without compressing significantly. Keep in mind that not all chassis want to be touched and may do the best resting on their own feet. That is where we deviate from feet alone and move to an Isolation Platform which starts at $1095 and is fully adjustable in the future so you can keep reusing the base when you change your component. The weight of the component is the first reason for changing the platform but also can include the internal noise generated by the component itself, the symmetry or asymmetry of the weight within the component, and other factors that are component-specific. These factors also include moving the system from a stiff floor to a more flexible floor. When changing sound rooms or houses.
Having introduced the idea here, I also want to note that anything that touches the chassis will affect the sound. If you wish to take a lot of time experimenting, have at it. HRS encourages exploration and ideas. As a salesperson, I always find that is a characteristic of an engineer who knows what the hell he is talking about, and can explain why myrtle blocks work, aluminum works, maple cutting boards work, etc. and also why he/she chooses the materials and technology they employ in their products.
Have fun with this part of your system. It is a vital part of the noise reduction in all audio systems.
I use Acapella Platform(s) with Acapella Couplers/Footers, puck 3/set. The platforms are very heavy and provide great vibrational sinks & the couplers/footers add the final element of isolation.
I have purchased a number of electron microscope isolation tables for use in taller buildings that have vibration/oscillation/sway properties taken into account. Very interesting reading.
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