@mahlman
I was in a hifi store and told the owner about isolation, he was at least curious enough to hear if there was any difference.
I put Smalley wave springs (not even optimum for the task) under the best amplifier connected to his best speakers, and he also heard it immediately.
It was when he allowed me to place a set under the speakers after he removed the spikes so that I could show him - that's when he politely excused himself to return with two of his techs who he introduced me to. They sat in there and all discussed the superior sound coming from their speakers they sell.
Opinions vary! I have already gotten positive feedback from Agon users, I believe it's because it actually works. I am not selling any products, just sharing experience.
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@camb - interesting that he isolated the speakers first. I have also put all of my system items on springs, even power supply you can see in my system page. Funny as he said to use the same method throughout, which I also have done. However the stand mount speakers are on wave springs, which are not optimal, and yet it still makes a considerable difference regardless. I will be using a damped mass device on top of electronics like the ETI AMG topper, as well as on my speakers including subs as I add more of them. I am currently building an isolation rack to work in unison with the AMG toppers on electronics. Same idea, to absorb vibration from the components, just implemented differently. camb - thanks, informative. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8721 |
@sgreg1 - Actually I got a granite slab too, and put my springs on top of it! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8721My amplifier is 98lbs, and I have my DAC and server sitting on top of it, until I can build an isolation bench, low enough to not get up into the imaging area on the tweeter plane. I would suggest spikes under the granite at least to try it out, I would myself, however I have already bolted together out of scraps at work, made of uni strut and double uni strut frame upon which to test out isolation shelves for myself. |
@mitch2 outriggers which come out and then up from the base and then horizontal could help lower the speakers, the center of gravity and create a more large and stable base under your speakers?
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@georgehifi - sorbothane may be fantastic for the AMG or TMD toppers I have been suggesting.
Have you personally tried it against springs? It's the broad frequency range of isolation that I believe makes springs still the most used engineering isolation system in the world.
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pinwa, honestly I have no idea what a heavy duty eva pad will do.
Unless someone in here has done it, I know I haven’t.
Springs offer a broad frequency range isolation, with high amplitude isolation as well, and they are used quite literally everywhere from cars, to gimbals for even small cameras where vibration isolation is critical.
I have recently helped a Agon friend purchase a full set of springs for $42.15 on Ebay. That’s eight 2" diameter 4" tall (uncompressed) zinc plated piano wire springs at approximately $5.27 per spring delivered.
Now he’s going to have to engineer a method to mount the springs, keeping the overall height within a a couple of inches of original, and move the base of the speakers with outriggers attached. So yes a DIY will require work and some clever engineering to be most effective.
Recently others are trying springs, from various vendors, or even DIY with great success.
Using springs requires some knowledge, as they have to suit the weight of the load they are bearing, they need to deform with transient energies in a manner that isolates those energies into a localized area for maximum performance.
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Before isolating the amplifier from the vibrations coming off the speakers... isolate the speakers vibrating, your source, your floor, your walls, your rack/stand holding all of your equipment.
Saying that, getting the energy into (springs for example) will require some planning, especially if your system is sitting on a substrate, being the materials under your floor, which may be somewhat absorbent already. Concrete is ideal as its rather unyielding compared to peer an beam, wooden floors. However mass loading under wood can drive a higher percentage of energy into an isolation system.
Townshend of UK and Solid Tech of Sweden are two good sources for products and information as to why I am suggesting the speaker isolation before electronics for return on investment.
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@mitch2
Experiment with a TMD Tuned Mass Damper on top of your equipment as well as sprung isolation, this could both isolate the vibrations emanating from the device into another, or from others into it. Whatever you use as a rack, remember it's holding the spring that is holding your amplifier, the energy will be absorbed by both the rack and the springs, please be aware of that. The more rigid the rack is, it's also sitting on your floor which is also going to absorb some energy, the higher percentage is isolated up into the springs. All the best mate! |
@mitch2 I am going to make a generalization that may help. - 50% compression under load is a good area to be in relation to mass loading of the spring. However, taking into account the amplitude of vibrations so that the spring will not bottom out, which is when there is no play left for the spring to compress. Much like a pendulum there is a frequency relationship with the spring rate and height of the spring. So far I have like the most a 4" tall and >2" diameter spring that compresses slightly over 50% under load. Approx. 3.5 turns of working spring with ground ends to have a flat interface.
(please be aware with taller loads the center of gravity can more easily exceed the limits of the loads base, creating an unsafe situation. Moving the base out to compensate and having a unified structure ie. screw outriggers to the bottom of a floor stander speakers for example, possibly where the spikes screw in)
- If you have a spring that under load is at 50%, it would be advantageous to have the diameter to be at least the same if not more than the final loaded height of the spring, for the sakes of stability.
- The goal of sprung isolation is to remove as much as possible the energies in the substrate coming up through the rack or whatever is being used to hold it, primarily from the vibrations of the speakers and subs. Or to to limit the energies going into the substrate into other elements in the system.
- An interesting note about the video shared by camb, there is another very good way to absorb, or rather transform the energies that the electronic devices themselves create. Putting a suspended mass on top of the device, effectively sandwiching the device between springs and mass, can also be implemented with great success. For example a soft faced rigid sheet with springs or absorbant material, with a mass on top.
http://www.audiopolitan.com/blog/eti-amg-toppers-review/
- Remember that the springs themselves are going to be supported by a substrate, this is where perhaps spikes into concrete may help the most. Because the less yielding the material under the springs the more energy will be kept into the suspension system and the mass it's supporting. Hopefully the energy stored in the cabinet can also deflect the spring and make the cabinet more inert sounding as well.
There will be a point where the resonant frequency of the subsrate will allow certain frequencies through, hopefully with diminished amplitude. I recently had a conversation with another Agoner and suggested if he's happy with his speakers on springs with his peer and beam floors, that framing up directly from the ground under the locations of the speakers it may make it more rigid and thus improve isolation. This theory has not been tested yet.
I have only been doing this for four years now, I'm still learning, and learning a great deal from this forum. Mitch 2 - PM me if I can help? |
@mitch2 I have given the springs interface to my concrete slab some thought also. Because of the need to as much as possible directly couple with the concrete slab with my stands, I have just purchased some solid copper spikes to go under my stands which sit on the carpet at the moment. You seem to get my point of not having a yielding support under the isolation springs, and yeah carpet is going to absorb energy. If you have not got a spiked base solution for under your springs, do go directly to carpet, there is low surface area, another gentleman in Agon informed me that after he removed pucks from under the springs (he purchased Townshend Audio Seismic Podiums) even with the feet directly on the carpet it improved. I looked for solutions, and perhaps you could look also? I found these https://isoacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Carpet-discs.jpgSomething like that under your speaker springs would be ideal, and that's why isoacoustics made them. You could DIY with a metal disc and three spikes much the same. But I must admit these look pretty, and aren't too ridiculously priced at all. On top of your amps now that you have isolation in place, the next move is to DIY version of http://www.audiopolitan.com/blog/eti-amg-toppers-review/I know .... yet another thing... |
Can Dan do a 8.5lb version of the fatboy discs?
Seems we're already on the same page :-)
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@squeak_king_77 - thanks for posting that info on the carpet discs.
@mitch2 - your system page look great. Is that a woolen rug on your wall behind the speakers? Did it make a reasonably significant difference in room sound?
I was thinking of doing the same thing, but also maybe having it stood off the wall a few inches so sounds can pass through, bounce off the wall behind and make a second pass.
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