What is the best audiophile speaker for a tiny square room?
I currently have Soundlabs M545 electrostatic speakers in my 9 x 11ft room. They are great speakers particularly for this small room because they are more directional than box speakers and therefore decrease sidewall reflections. However, like other electrostatics, they are hard to drive and require big amps (>200W), which tend to generate a lot of heat. Class Ds don't go well with ES speakers. Are there great easy to drive speakers that would work well in this room without compromising SQ?
Atma-sphere amps have been mentioned, and imo they work very well with SoundLabs (disclaimer: I'm a dealer for both).
One of the nice things about the Atma-Sphere amps is that you can pull out some of the power tubes and run them at reduced power and therefore reduced heat. Not that a pure Class A tube amp is going to be cool-running! But with a pair of MA-1's, for example, you can essentially optimize the number of tubes used for your needs.
When I lived in New Orleans it was in an old house that used window-unit air conditioners. I had some very quiet ceiling fans professionally installed. At a low setting the ceiling fans more than doubled the listening time before it became necessary to take an AC break and turn on the window unit to cool down the room.
The ideal would have been to place the amplifiers in an adjoining room. Because of the already low output impedance of the Atma-Sphere amps, the series resistance of a fairly long run of speaker cable is not an issue. Likewise the balanced connection between an Atma-Sphere pre-amp and amp is long-run-friendly, so the preamp can be in your listening room while the power amps are in another room. This may not be practical in your situation, but I mention it just in case.
I appreciate everyone's input. Although my Soundlab panels sound great, one thing that bothers me in this small space is that they are like monuments standing in front of me blocking my imaginary sound stage. So it seems as if the instruments located on the sides of the stage feel like they are coming from behind the big 5 ft black "curtain" of the speakers. If I had 10 feet of empty space between the speakers, I could "visualize" the whole stage. Or if the speakers were shorter, I could visualize over them.
"
Although my Soundlab panels sound great, one thing that bothers me in
this small space is that they are like monuments standing in front of me
blocking my imaginary sound stage.
"
Have you tried listening with the lights off, to eliminate distracting visual cues?
@chungjh - I understand about the psychological effect of huge speakers. That is one reason I rejected some and chose the Janszen Valentinas. They are not large, and I feel more comfortable in my room than with huge speakers looming over me.
But of course, the great sound is the main reason I chose them. I think it would be easier for you to move to the Janszens, which are electrostatic hybrids, than move to a dynamic speaker like the LS-50. (I also think that the Janszens are cleaner and better balanced than the LS-50.)
I am not connected to Janszen other than as a customer. I don't recommend them to everyone, but they seem to meet your requirements well (easy to place, good in smaller rooms, and great sound).
@chungjh Yesterday I was testing out how loud I could take my speakers since I am replacing the tweeter and midrange (COAX) next week on my Thiel CS3.7. So if I blew them no big deal.
Normally I sit with my back to the speakers with my head looking into 4 feet of closet space (my computer monitors). Since I was doing a special listening session yesterday, I thought I would try to optimize the sitting position. So I turned around and faced the speakers.
There was a dramatic change in my perception of the sound just because I was looking at the speakers. The speakers did not disappear as before. I changed the volume to various levels and still the same issue. I think the small room is the cause of this. Likely a bit of claustrophobia at work.
I just put my KEF LS50s back into the room (the old Thiel drivers are now removed) and the same thing. Looking at the speakers takes some of the magic away. When I first setup this room, I thought it was a bummer that I could not face the speakers but it turned out to be a stroke of luck.
BTW - I do not know if it is the lack of bass on the LS50 but the difference in sound quality between the LS50 and the CS3.7 (in my small room) is massively favoring the CS3.7. The LS50s is sounding as perfect as it can but the floorstander makes such a dramatic improvement. I think any of the floorstanders I listed before would have had similar results.
Martin logans have a sensitivity of 89db vs my Soundlab's 86db. So I probably need at least 100W? Also there is the question of triode vs pentode, ultra linear....
If you like your speakers get a pair of ZOTL40’s to use as mono blocks. I use one ZOTL40 to power my 86 db efficient Janszen hybrid electrostatics. These amps seem much more powerful than the 40 watts and they sound like they were made for ESL’s. Trust me call Mark at LTA to get pair in for demo.
The other option are small stand mount speakers llike GamuT RS3i which I also have in a second system and sound incredible.
Hello @chungjh, My apologies for the late reply. I humbly suggest that you approach it from a feasibility POV first: Will an amp of this size and configuration really work for you? By looking at a class of amp vs. looking at a specific brand or model you can get yourself "into the ballpark" as it were. My thought on this would be to audition something in the tube/100wpc range to start. Once you've made the determination that it works to satisfactory sound levels
(I suspect it might.), then you can redirect from there. More power? Less power? Any favored brands? Price range? New vs used? It sounds like you've decided to keep the speakers. Now it's time to find something to drive them properly to your requirements. In closing, I'm not going to get on the "buy this brand!" bandwagon. IMHO too often people get too strident about brands, seeking validation for their choices. Listen carefully. Make notes. In your area of the country I would suspect there are many suppliers to choose from or one of the use market places will net you a nice amp. Choose what makes you smile.
Meridian M20s are sounding great this evening after a recent recapping. KEF T-33 Tweeters serviced (FerroTec APG 512A ferrofluid) a few years ago. One of these days I'll have room for my loaned out M100 actives . . .
If this conversation has convinced you to try a new amplifier, you might consider passing the list of contenders by Soundlab to see which they would recommend. I think people often underutilize the expertise of their manufacturers in this regard.
"If this conversation has convinced you to try a new amplifier, you might
consider passing the list of contenders by Soundlab to see which they
would recommend."
Based on my experience as a SoundLab dealer, they tend to be reluctant to name names when asked for amplifier recommendations. So the question to ask is, "What amplifier manufacturers have you shown with?" THAT's how I got them to tell me about Atma-Sphere, twenty years ago.
I have talked to SL about amps. They have used Parasound JC1s and Atman-Sphere. I think tubes are more popular with SL, particularly AS. But AS MA-2, which is usually recommended with SL, produces 1600W of heat just on idle (2 Monoblocks together). Plus, it is >$20,000.
But AS MA-2, which is usually recommended with SL, produces 1600W of
heat just on idle (2 Monoblocks together). Plus, it is >$20,000.
Given the size of your room, if you are thinking of Atma-Sphere, my first recommendation would be a set of MA-1s rather than MA-2s. You don't need the power, and with changes that Sound Lab made in the last 5 years or so, the MA-1 can now do on the Sound Labs what took a set of MA-2s prior.
If you are planning solid state amps for Sound Labs, my first recommendation is Pass Labs.
But if heat really is the issue, then a very practical thing to do is to set up a simple and inexpensive set of ducts in or near the ceiling. They can be powered by a low RPM squirrel cage fan that can be dead silent. I've seen installations like this- one using our MA-3 amplifier, which has 42(!) power tubes in class A **per channel**- and yet the room stayed comfortable all day and all night with the amplifiers on. You might consider this, especially if you like the sound you are getting right now, since it only costs a few hundred dollars to implement.
I don't think I've ever seen a thread asking for speaker suggestions where more people said to keep the current speakers. Must be heartening to know how much people respect your SLs.
I suggest adding room treatment before doing anything else. I have an 18 x 11 x 8 room that was a sonic disaster before treatment and am now using a combination of diffusion and absorption. The treatment makes the room behave as if much larger than it physically is.
Speakers that are generally thought to need LOTS of space (Sony ES SS-M7) have never sounded better than they do in this environment. I can also say from experience that LS50s can sound horrible in a room that needs treatment.
I also recommend GIK Acoustics. I sent them some room measurements and they suggested a combination of diffusion and absorption. I was skeptical about using any diffusion (how could that help a room that is way too bright?) and ordered Alpha Panels that can be mounted for either diffusion or absorption so that I could try both. I much prefer diffusion.
I was thinking if the room is really small open baffle may not work since you need to bring them away from the back wall. Take a look at the Larson speakers. The are very natural and they go right up against the wall. Some heritage klipsch speakers are also designed to go against the wall and are very efficient.
The Digital Amplifier Company 2Cherry or Meagaschino amplifiers would be a perfect match for your Sound Labs. Tommy does extensive listening and measuring with different types of speakers, one is a large Magnapan. I have had a number of his amps and Dac’s over the years and currently using a 2 Cherry on my Charney Audio Companion Horns. DAC offers a 30 day return policy.
If you are considering a different speaker for your room look into the Charney Audio Maestro Horn with the "Voxativ AC 2.6. They are designed for smaller rooms like yours and deliver on all counts.
my dedicated music room is a pretty reflective cube, 11x11x11. with a carpeted floor, no treatment. I have two different systems that work great in that room. First is my PrimaLuna DiaLogue HP (75 watts of tube power with the stock tubes) powering my Focal Diablo Utopia III's with the Focal Stands, through an MSB Analog DAC. The Focal's are about 2.5 ft from the back wall, 8 ft from my listing chair. Sound fantastic.
The second system is Joseph Audio Pulsars, powered by a highly modified Plinius SA 100 Mk. III by Galbo Audio Designs, which also sounds fantastic. I keep going back and forth on which I prefer. Neither is really "better," just different. I use a REL subwoofer with both systems. I would highly recommend either choice for a small room. The Focal's are less forgiving on crappy recordings, while the the Pulsars have more bass and are better with bootlegs and that sort of thing but not as good on well-recorded stuff. But it is a minor difference. I am happy with both, so its hard to decide which to part with!
Good luck.I am simply stunned you can listen to those speakers in a room of that size. I had Martin Logans for 16 years and they HAD to be pulled about 6 ft from the rear wall to enjoy what they could do. I'm not sure how you managed it but congrats, I guess. They are spectacular speakers, no doubt in my mind!
@chungjh Did you come to a resolution to your speaker and room issues?
My floor standers in the same size room as yours are sounding amazing with the recently implemented DRC. So good in fact that I bought a second amp yesterday to run as mono block, a Benchmark AHB2. I can make my speakers sound even bigger and more dynamic with more power (I tested this out). I have a second DRC implementation (another Convolution file) that I will use to deal with the additional bass from the additional power. All of this is done digitally on ROON (or JRiver) before the bits hit my DAC.
A lot of misinformation on this forum on DRC and I am glad I did more research and tried it out. A lot of info on this on AudiophileStyle and AudioScienceReview (ASR). I do not have any DRC involved on my Tuner or SACD player but I play those are mainly used on headphones.
A few years ago the founder of ASR, Amir, posted to me on a thread that I have to use DRC in any room. I thought he was a little over the top on that. Today, I am thinking he knew what he was talking about.
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