What is Technics thinking?

Since I do not want to steal anyone’s thunder I will let someone like BillAllen10 write a more detailed/competent review. I have owned my Technics 1200 GAE for about two and half weeks now and am very happy with it.

I agree for my 4K I would liked to have seen the 1200 GAE have a different aesthetic than the G or previous MKxx models. My thought would be some for gold accents on the plinth and gold colored buttons, rather than a nondescript number plate. Which is the only cosmetic distinction the GAE has from other 1200’s.

Setting looks aside, this is the best table I ever purchased. I have had few over the years. Rega, SOTA, Thorens, plus Mid-Fi offerings from Project, Pioneer, Techincs, and Denon, just to give you all an idea.

The SL 1200 GAE is simple to use and set up, rugged in its construction, and well engineered. Though it is debatable as to whether or not the $4k price point is fair.

Call it buyer’s remorse, but I would be the first to agree that I spent too much on this thing. That being said, there is enough engineering, build quality, and performance value in this table that it does merit its hefty asking price.

To be more clear, even after being fool hardy enough to spend $4k on this thing. I do not feel ripped off. Believe you me, there has been a time or two where I spent considerably less on a big bang for your buck Audio Darling and felt I been had. Gaining nothing from my investment except a notable name, that has not been the case with the 1200 GAE.

It is not broken in yet so I am not going to go into great detail about its sound. But everything about this table works as it should. Fit and finish are excellent, the tonearm tracks extremely well, the platter speed is dead on.The most notable thing it offers is a great noise floor. It is the quietest of any table I ever owned.

This is important to me since I am a bass-head and like to use Grado cartridges for their excellent low end. The downside with these, is that on lesser tables they are prone to pick up motor hum and rumbling, so along with the super deep bass you hear that too.

The extensive Isolation within the 1200 GAE has eliminated this. Now for the first time since I been buying them I am finally getting the most out of my beloved Grado’s.

The other downside with a Grado wood-body is that they are over-sized. Not all tonearms handle them well, not so with the 1200, which handles them with aplomb despite being an very light tonearm.

As far as the sound goes, for the time being I will not go into a deep description. I want to get things broken in first. All I will tell you is I am enjoying the !@#$ out of this table right out of the box. Since its arrival I have gotten very little sleep. Instead of going to bed when I should; I have become addicted. There have been many nights where I have to play one more, because that last record sounded so good.

Do not get me wrong, there are other tables that are better buy, and this table is by no means a bargain. However, my experience has been, that the 1200 GAE did deliver on what I paid for.

The bottom line with this thing, is that it performs like a 4k table should. That is all I can ever expect from it.

Hi Billallen10,  Thankyou for the phone calls and emails,  my sl-1600mk2 is now in perfect working order thanks to you,  you are an asset to us all here on audiogon,  I  assure you,  this gentleman knows technics turntable's 😎

Four grand seems like a lot.  But I grew up on Technics DD.  Vinyl returned to my system a few years ago via an SL-1210M5G.  It's modified with a KAB power supply and tonearm damper plus a Funkfirm achromat.  It sits on the Isonoe footers and sorbothane cups with glass centers.  An AT440MLA was the first cartridge and it reminded me of the sound I heard as a kid.  Next came a DL103R.  That was a nice introduction to MC.  Now it has an OC9MKII.  Love that cartridge.

My GAE has been here a little over a week.  The 103R is on a Sumiko headshell and I promptly installed it on the GAE.  While I can't compare 2 tables with 2 different cartridges it seems like the 103R sounds better than I recall it on the 1210.  Both tables will be set up with the same cartridge for true comparison.  There is zero buyer's remorse here.  An AT-ART9 on a magnesium Jelco HS-25 is likely the next cart for the GAE.

There is no ring at all when the GAE platter is thumped.  That's quite a contrast from the 1210.  I don't hear any cogging at all- but I never heard any on the 1210 either.  The gimbal and it's support looks very similar but look closely- there are differences.  The gimbal support is larger and the tonearm is mounted a bit differently.  I have no idea what the magnesium tonearm mass is on the GAE. 

The GAE is promising so far.  I'll confess to little nostalgia but I'm mid-40s and enjoying vinyl again.  I'd certainly recommend the GAE to anyone who likes Technics direct drives.

I’m sorry, but Denon DL103R on stock Technics SL1210 tonearm is a total mismatch. Low compliance MC Denon 103R works fine only on high mass tonearms. Technics stock arm is ok for MM cartridges of medium compliance, it can handle 30cu compliance cartridges with kab silicon fluid damper, but your Denon is the oppisite story.

I don’t know anything about new technics tonearm, but do you think it’s better than top notch Technics EPA-100 or EPA-100 mk2 or EPA-500 (or any other vintage tonearms like Lustre, Saec, Micro etc) you can easily mount on custom plinth with SP10-mk2 for much less than 4k in total (most likely for half price) to spend the rest on some amazing cartridges.

51 albums later I still cannot shake the bright overall tone in my system.

Not wanting to rewire the tone arm on a brand new table, I called Charles at Cryogenics Int'l to discuss treating the entire turntable. He said he had never Cryo'd an entire turntable. Humm! Myself having commissioned over 1000 pieces the past 10 years felt strangely optimistic. The only issue's I experienced with Charles nitrogen vapor process was glue failures & paint peeling on improperly prepped surfaces, no electronics failures to speak off. (PM me or call Charles directly if you have specific questions on Cryogenics)

Well my entire SL1200GAE took the Cryo plunge last weekend, and a few wrinkles aside, the process was a total sonic success.  After a 2 hours run-in the sound was not only relaxed but had and entirely different musical presentation. Way beyond my expectations, something entirely new is emanating in my room. 

My SL1200GAE is having it's coming out party with friends and family. (Read-scrutinizing-audiophiles) The rubber hits the road tonite my friends!

I hear where you're coming from. After reading the story behind the retooling and considering the SL has become the de-facto Icon for a record player even during the demise of the LP I can understand the manufactures dilemma.

I'm thinking they were considering how they would maintain their current customer base (scratchers) and their ability to mount the players into existing systems road cases. I'm sure they'll be available at every Guitarted Center next to the Neumann microphones in the glass case.

My 1976 SL is on its second long term loan to another friend who has rediscovered the superiority of his LP collection. Since I temporarily relocated his bookshelf speakers unveiling his first experience with sound staging they've been in place for the past seven months. 

Compared to my Well Tempered I do miss the ergonomics and quick startup and the platter torque when dusting a side. The damn thing has a certain pace in its presentation that I don't get with the Well Tempered. Unfortunately, that old arm is a POS.

Friday evening began at Zur Kate for a fine german meal accompanied with un-amplified accordion music. This firmly set the foundation for the late night festivities.

Back in my main listening room the natives were clearly agog, fingering their brutal test LP’s that will surely bring the new Technics GAE to its knee’s. Stupidly I also agreed to a phono amp ’cable’ evaluation. Test LP’s combined with ’cable’ comparisons proved to be a recipe for audiophile neurosis.

What was I thinking ... hey boys ... this is my rodeo!

Grabbing the bull by the horns we regrouped back at my wet bar, the only damage being restricted to my Scotch collection. With everyone’s ego unfettered, we returned to my Technics 1610Mk2/Ortofon Vienna left on auto-repeat playing a virgin re-issue of Kind of Blue. Having previously reset my system back to normal all agreed the music sounded fantastic. After listening to both sides I quickly moved the Vienna & KOB LP over to the GAE. Once again I played both sides, total silence ensued ... no words necessary! I peeled backed the plastic from another virgin LP, the 2013 Mono reissue of Kind of Blue, silent nods agreed. Handshakes, tears, and stares of disbelief ensued after side one. Yes the mono version kills the stereo one, the GAE having laid it all bare.

Sticking with other Modal Jazz recordings, the consensus being the GAE clearly places you like a fly on the wall inside the recording studio.

Switching back to my 1610Mk2 changed perspectives, now we were just some blokes sitting in room listening to great music. A part of me was crushed by that revelation, as was some of the other players. The herd thinned at this point, perhaps realizing that your current analog rig now amounts to no more than a relic of the 20th century is a tough pill to swallow. (Days later some have rationalized that what they heard didn’t actually happen, perhaps I drugged them and unfairly used my Vulcan mind meld)

Those that remained went on to an all night listening session to the GAE. More virgin’s (vinyl) hit the floor Friday night then my high school prom 36 years ago. I personally opened 7 brand new LP’s, I hear the count was over 20 by the end of listening session. I threw in the towel at 3:30 am, others kept spinning records till the sun came up. I woke up for a glass of water at 7 am, ecstatic to find the ruby cantilever still intact on the Vienna.


I like other’s have yet to fully recover from the experience.

Hi Bill,  excellent post,  would have liked to have been there 🤑

I sat down last night fully intending to evaluate the sound of the GAE with my Kondo IO & Technics 205Mk4 cartridges. Instead the wife started spinning her brand new albums, Michael Jackson, Depeshe Mode, Pharrell Williams, Kate Bush. I snuck in my remaining sealed LP's, some Black Keys, Hendrix, Willie Nelson, Pattie Smith, Nirvana Unplugged.

BTW these LP's were all purchased at Fry's Electronics superstore, they have at least a couple thousand for sale. The last time both of us thumbed through LP's together was the mid 90's, we weren't even married then. We frequented Tower Records in Hollywood because they had the best LP selections and we both hated everything to do with CD's. We still do, perhaps thats the secret to our long marriage ... we both hate the same things. We transitioned to computer audio in 2005, never having to touch those wretched plastic disc's again. These days we enjoy Hi-Res music downloads via a modded cryo'd Sony HAP-Z1ES.  For background music & TV we bought a Naim Mu-So and stream Tidal Flac files. Tidal offers a seamless endless supply of high quality music on demand, check it out. Of coarse the Mu-So's main board is cryo'd and I added a mini headphone jack directly off the bass speakers to feed a REL sub.  This rig plays day & night, we could easily live happily ever after with just the Mu-So/REL/Tidal combo.

Getting back to the GAE, I really don't know what else to say. It presents recorded LP music under a brand new light that you have to experience for yourself. I'm almost afraid what the Kondo IO will dig out of those groove's. While the GAE's 'hot sound' may match your system straight out of the box, I still highly recommend everyone Cryo this device. Without a doubt this was biggest transformation I've experienced with Cryo treatment. (PM me for details)

The GAE has taken center stage around our place and eliminated any thought of playing Hi-Res digital files. I see nothing but Vinyl purchases in our future. Maybe we'll just move our bed into the Stereo Room. 

http://northcoastaudio.com/technicsSL1200GAE.html

Glad I decided to wait for the "G".

Still very interested in hearing owner reviews of the GAE!

Thanks for the link Andy.  Good to know that the "G" will be just as awesome as the "GAE". 

But its still the same price - 4 Grand!  So why are you glad you waited?

Bill Allen, Are you inferring that you actually cry-treated your entire SL1200GAE, or what?

I am glad I waited to buy the Technics 1200G model because:

1. It will be available in black.  Everyone knows that dark colored components have a warmer tone.  Silver components sound bright and lean.  Often, they need to be dunked in a cyro bath to sound acceptable, something I would like to avoid, if possible.  In any case, I much prefer black to silver.

2. It seems that the G and GAE models will be almost exactly the same.  While the list price may be the same, I would expect the G model to be available at a discount, at least after the first few months.

 I thought about buying the GAE but with almost no reviews, either online or in print, it was hard to pull the trigger.  It is a long drive for me to hear one in the next state and I won't really have time until next month.

m-db, one of my implied points was not seeing how the new model would appeal to their recent sales base, so why continue the styling?

"I'm thinking they were considering how they would maintain their current customer base (scratchers) and their ability to mount the players into existing systems road cases."

Jumping from around $600 to $4,000 requires more than a leap of faith, particularly for the mobile DJs with two or more tables. 

Hi lewm, I have talked to Bill Allen on the phone,  yes, he did cryogenic the entire 1200 gae turntable,  however,  you need to know,  he uses 100% mined silver cable's,  to me,  could have been bad for stock gae, Bill claims the cryogenic treatment pleased his sound impression's to what he uses for his system,  👀🎶🎺🎻

pryso, I agree. Your post got me thinking about what may have driven this design.
For me a glaring motive was maintaining the iconic look that even a line image of it is now easily recognizable as a turntable by people who may have never seen a turntable in person. 

Would a weekend scratcher pitch $8K for a pair of decks when the Pioneer version are the hot ticket at their local GC, definitely not. On the other hand there are plenty of concert level pro DJs who wouldn't blink at the status improvement like a set of twenty-two inch rims.

I can't imagine what they were thinking when improving that damn arm. Its 2016 and that VTA adjustment still can't be safely done on the fly and its S shape prevents an on the fly azimuth adjustment. WTF? 

"its S shape prevents an on the fly azimuth adjustment. WTF?"

With most arms azimuth is set at the headshell, few rotate the arm tube itself.  So why does it matter if S shape, J, or straight with offset headshell?

Actually I can't think of ANY arm that allows azimuth "on the fly", fortunately some do allow for VTA. 

Anti-skate, VTA, and azimuth, adjustments can be made on the fly with my Well Tempered Classic with fork towered arm. As the quality of my phono section and cartridge improved these vernier adjustments became much more important in dialing in the decks presentation during play. 

While the SL does allow limited azimuth adjustment, spinning the P-mount head shell is a time consuming hit or miss affair. Guess I'm spoiled. 

@m-db  
Pretty certain "on the fly" relative to turntable adjustments usually means while playing a record.  Are you saying your WTC lets you adjust azimuth with the arm lowered and the needle in the groove of a spinning record?  

While the SL does allow limited azimuth adjustment, spinning the P-mount head shell is a time consuming hit or miss affair.

I think you mean 1/2" universal headshell. P-mount is a non-adjustable plug-in with no lead wires to attach. The Jelco HS-20, HS-25, and HS-30 universal 1/2" headshells all include azimuth adjustment. 

The HS-20 is available in the US as the Sumiko HS12 headshell; the HS-25 is available as the LP Gear ZuPreme. The ZuPreme is the better deal---$54.95 with built-in finger lift vs. $90 for the Sumiko with a fussy finger lift that requires threading the cartridge mounting bolts through the cartidge, headshell, and finger lift.

Also, I check for and adjust for azimuth by setting a small bubble level on the top of the headshell (with stylus guard in place), loosening the hex set screw to rotate the headshell until the bubble indicates it's level, and then tightening it again. 

m-db, ah yes, I'd forgotten about the WTTA.  And I owned one, but that was many years ago and thus my excuse.  Still, I can't think of any others.

Also, as noted, I don't believe the standard SL headshell is a P-mount.  At least the one I saw at THE Show Newport in the Technics room had a standard 1/2" universal headshell.

Also, as noted, I don't believe the standard SL headshell is a P-mount. At least the one I saw at THE Show Newport in the Technics room had a standard 1/2" universal headshell.

No one on this thread said that the standard Technics SL12x0 series headshell is a P-mount. Did you see such a statement somewhere else?  It's always been the universal 1/2" headshell going back to its introduction in 1972. 

johnny
Also, I check for and adjust for azimuth by setting a small bubble level on the top of the headshell

I use a bubble also but find a pencil lead if able to be kept in place
my go to choice.

pryso, P-mount, Universal, I assumed they were the same. Thanks for that.

totem, for many years I used a level followed by carefully listening to a test record for my azimuth adjustment. Then I borrowed a Fozgometer and realized a greater accuracy and an improvement in staging.  
To complicate things further the Well Tempered Classic has a slightly concave plater. 

Hi Billallen10, any updates on your technics 1200gae?

Mods are already being done to the power supply, thus improving the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has. Also, replacing the tonearm plate and tone arm appears to bring the table up to snuff with some reports indicating that it approaches the Sp10 mkiii. It also adds another 3000 or more to the cost, but then you have an almost realized product.

I guess if you can get one discounted at around 1000 and then invest the rest in the mods you'll have a nice sounding table, if you can get over the DJ looks. I rather spend my money on something else.

"Mods are already being done to the power supply, thus improving the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has."

Haven't heard any reports of this supposed "problematic cogging effect" from users.  Would like to hear from anyone who has experienced it!

All direct drives cog. Whether or not you hear it or notice it's impact is individualized. Timestep does the mods. Feel free to go to their website for more information.

I own the Sl1200 GAE and an Artisan Fidelity SP10 Mk3 NG and I can say that the new table sounds awesome and it does not cog. 

I ran my table at 78 rpm for about 200 hours to seat the bearing. This makes a big difference. I think it was an incredible value and cheap at $4k. Just look at what the other companies are charging for tables direct or belt that have nothing like the technology or build quality of the GAE. 

All direct drives do not cog. Any non-coreless motor can cog, including belt drive tables. Also, because a belt drive is usually turning at 300rpm, multiple resonance modes are being induced into the platter. Now, I'll admit that I have yet to hear a belt drive that I like as I prefer idlers and direct drive table. I can always hear the motors in belt drive tables from several feet away at 33.3 rpm, including one very nice $40k belt drive table I have recently evaluated. I was shocked that I could hear the very very heavy motor as it spun. I can not hear my GAE or SP10 mk3 motors at 33.3 rpm even with my ear on the plinth. 

The belt drives have their place I am sure but for me they simply lack drive/force, a sense of power if you will. Idlers and directs have this attribute which I am partial to. 

Better direct drive including the SL1200 Mk2 also do not "hunt and seek" as Mr. Framer and others have alleged in times past. That is why it is call a Quartz -Lock. It locks to speed and adjusts when a load change is detected. All one has to do is scope (O'scope) the table and look at the resultant wave-form. Cheap tables may exhibit that undesirable behavior but even the SL1200 MK X did not behave in that manner. 

Now, having made my thoughts public, I have nothing against belt drive tables other than the fact that I've never heard one that I prefer over a direct or idler. Never heard a Caliburn :)

Just wanted to comment on some things I see posted over and over and which I know to be in error. 

OOPS!!! I literally ment to type "Mr. Fremer" and not Framer. That was autocorrect and it did it again when I was trying to post this retraction but I caught it this time. 

No disrespect intended, I generally enjoy Mr. Fremers reviews and I certainly appreciate what he does for the world of vinyl. I also enjoy getting to hear his Caliburn on the YouTube vids he posts. 

I frankly don't care what it does or doesn't do. This is what has been reported by others and the subsequent mods they have done to correct it.

Now if they would have improved upon its look they might have hooked me. I also feel I would preferred leaving the tone arm choice up to me.

To those interested there is an interesting article discussing how Abbey Road Studios was so impressed with the table that they have installed them in their mastering studios.

http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-news/abbey-road-technics-sl-1200-turntables/

Agreed .... $4000 is a bargain. Can't imagine any other manufacturer producing this table for under $10k. Easily one of the most significant audio products released in many years. Bravo Technics.

As in all things audio, where some see beauty others see moles. 

My question is, "What is it that Timestep identifies with the drive that led them to such radical mods?" 

You can read their whites papers on line, and they convey a strong rational, albeit, I don't have the knowledge or instruments to verify their findings. Are they full of it, or is there really a mole on the Mona Lisa? 

Maybe it is a matter of excellence being the enemy of the very good.

The mods are nothing more than a switch from a SMPS to a linear PS  and a tone arm swap. I personally would not swap the arm for a SME even if I felt like it needed to be swapped. I feel the arm is more than capable and that's after listening to my Kuzma 4 Point/Anna on my Mk3 right behind my GAE. 

This mod will have nothing and I mean nothing to do with cogging as this motor has no iron core and thus no magnetic hysteresis regardless of TimeSteps marketing. They also state that it takes a "haze" away from the table. If you want to sharpen the sound of the table, lose the stock rubber mat and replace the feet with "TrackAudio" feet or something non-springy. I have mine on inexpensive wooden blocks for now and I find it to sound less lush but tighter and more accurate overall. 

Now, as a person who hates SMPS I will admit that a linear supply would be desirable to me ONLY because I don't like how SMPS's (regardless of the product) affect my systems sound. I usually go so far as to unplug my plasma tv, routers, hard drives..,etc when doing serious listening. 

This is an easy mod to perform, I could easily open the unit and solder 2 wires to the circuit board and connect to one of my variable linear regulated lab power supplies which can supply up to 25 amps. 
I do this with some of my iFi gear. 

This ain't rocket science. 

Also note that this table is software driven and also has two sensors designed to detect and defeat any type of motor related vibrartory issues. This table uses an incredibly complex CPU and software stack to perform its duties. I can tell you FIRST HAND as an actual owner/user that this thing has the rotational smoothness and continuousness of my MK3. In other words THEY NAILED IT!!!

And why not, the designer of this table uses a SP10 MK3 as his personal reference. 

Free upgrade for your SL1200 G/GAE :)

Now that I have some miles on my table and I am familiar enough with its various traits I decided to experiment with the Auto/Manual Torque setting. It comes from the factory set to A (auto). It sounds excellent but the sustain/decay are not quite there with my Mk3. Well, was I surprised when I placed it in M (manual) mode and started experimenting with various torque settings via the potentiometer under the platter (accessible with the platter in place). My ears tell me that somewhere south of the mid point (I have mine set to 1/5 maximum torque) sounds best.

I find it more languid (not lazy) and relaxed sounding than auto mode or when the torque is cranked up in manual mode. To make sure I wasn't losing anything in the areas of slam and dynamics or bass I listened intently to Dexter Gordon's "Tanya" on the album One Flight Up. There was no loss of any of the aforementioned attributes.

It is vocals where I here the largest benefit.

The table is even better than I thought it was. I believe the Stereophile pre-review mentioned a slightly disminished sustain, trust me, adjusting the torque profile will give it to you and then some.

Would love to hear some of your thoughts if you decide to experiment :)

Audiofun:  I have been enjoying your comments on your new table, especially as you are able to compare it to  SP-10 MK3.  Interesting that reducing the torque improves the sound.

Raymonda:  I have been unable to find any references online to "the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has."  Even Timestep, which is pushing its mods, describes the table as "superb" but improvable with their own PS and a SME tonearm, said to reduce the "haze" they hear.
 The SME tonearm reduces the ability to easily change cartridges, one of the advantages of the original arm.

"Which brings me to cogging. We encountered this after fitting a Mike New bearing to our Timestep Evo SL-1210 Mk2. It increased drag a little by being larger in diameter and lubricated by heavier oil, showing the old motor didn’t have ‘enough in reserve’ to cope with the change. The cogging that appeared was at 6.6Hz (see our Feb 15 issue) but since it measured a very low 0.05% it was hardly a mechanical disaster and unlikely to have any major influence on sound quality.

   Ironically, our analysis of the new motor shows an identical component at 6.6Hz so it too is a 12 pole motor spinning at 33rpm (12 x 0.55Hz = 6.6Hz) and this is what our analysis makes clear. So cogging has not been eliminated; it exists at a very low level, much like before. But platter weight and quality of construction has improved – the important point.

What I’ll finally note with regard to the platter is that it is all-metal and not a large, heavy acrylic disc of the sort common to belt drives – and this likely influences its sound more than the minimal amounts of cogging our high resolution spectrum analysis is able to detect."

Here is the ULR for Hifi World review in which they mentioned it.

Again, I think the general reviews have been very good and with Timesteps mod it might be a case of the excellent being the enemy of the very, very good.

Thanks Andysf.

I looked at that graph, smh. This is a marketing stunt. They have a formula which based on their premise would have all and EVERY 12 pole motor cogging, coreless or with iron. Further they state this is a 12 pole motor when the lead engineer stated it is a 9 pole motor. This is marketing.

You know, I am not a fan of belt drive, guess where you are unlikely to see me wasting my time (or theirs) telling people why I don't like belt drive? On a thread for belt drive tables. Why would I want to be a sower of discord for those who may love their belt driven table.

I feel like I am taking crazy pills. No IRON, no stuturation, no interaction between the flux harmonics in the air gap. The fact that they claim to see the EXACT same result on two completely different types of motors, iron-core based and coreless would immediately cause this engineer to ponder if they are measuring what they think they are measuring. (Charlie Brown yell after he misses the football yet again)

I think this table has some people shaking in ther proverbial boots.

Hey, let's stipulate that is is the worst cogging table extant.., guess what, it is still one of the finest tables I have ever heard and I know a current beautiful $40k belt driven table (which is highly praised and for good reason) that this table would beat in most if not all major categories.

For those that own this table, ignore the noise (pun intended) and enjoy your table, you are among the fortunate few :)
I'm done talking about the nonsense of cogging, I want to engage with people who actually want to enjoy exchanging our experiences with this table and those who earnestly just want to know more about it.

I did some serious listening late last eve (paid for that this morning) and I was amazed at the digital like solidity in the pitch. I mean just flat DEAD-ON, not a quiver but yet with the magic that (at this point in time) it appears only analog can achieve. 

Don't get me wrong, I still love my digital, I listen to both regularly. Good digital can be awfully convincing.., until you play superlative analog :)

Typo correction: "saturation"

Andysf:

The fact that lowering the torque made such a profound difference caught me of guard a bit. My Mk3 has 16Kg-cm starting torque (what it is nominally I haven't a clue). I calculate that I have my GAE operating between 1.3 and 1.45 kg-cm of torque. The maximum is 3.3kg-cm. Whereas at max torque in manual or when set to auto the table locks speed in about a 0.3 seconds it now takes about 1.8 seconds to come to speed. YMMV but it is most beneficial in my system :)

I would describe the difference as follows; say you've finally met that nifty girl and your really like her, so you hold her hand tightly. She knows you like her but it is uncomfortable for both of you, so you loosen your grip a bit. 

You both feel better and she still knows you like her. Ok, now I am laughing at myself (I need to stop listening and get some sleep). Corny, I know but at the higher torque settings, it just seems that the table is holding on to the music a little to tightly. 

Backing the torque off gives the  music room to breathe, it really is quite a dramatic change in presentation. 

My bad, I meant to write that I have it operating at about 0.70 kg-cm.

Interesting video on the SL 1200 G.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-explains-whats-so-good-about-sl-1200g-turntable

The 1200G is now on sale here in Norway.  The price is 3.000 NoK (about $370) higher than for the 1200GAE.  Didn't expect that. How is it in your countries?