What is Technics thinking?

One thing I have found I that the 1200g is very sensitive to the amount of torque on the platter bolts.  In my experience, the platter does not want to be overly tightened.  needs to be backed of somewhat. 

aragonx 5:
You are welcome. Concerning the headshell, it will really depend on the compliance of the cartridge you are using. I note that with a Denon 103r which is a lower compliance cartridge my system sounds much better with the 12gram LP Zupreme vs the 7 gram (I weighed  them) stock headshell. It will probably sound even better (for the 103r) with the 18 gram AT headshell I'm planning to purchase. You are going to find that this is a seriously accomplished  table. Do give the bearings in the arm and spindle along with the tonearm wire ample time to run in.

It is available in the U.S.  I just ordered one from hifi heaven.  It is due to arrive next week.

 I want to bump this thread to see if anyone has an update on the SL-1200G. Is it available yet in the U.S.? Any online sources?

@Audiofun, thanks as well for posting your experience adjusting the torque.  I look forward to experimenting with that as soon as I get this cartridge on.  Would you use the lower mass headshell or the HS-25?

Thank you Audiofun.  That puzzles me a little since the original SL-1200 also had a 12g tonearm mass IIRC.  But the original was aluminum and the GAE is magnesium.  They do have slightly different dimensions and I don't know the tube wall thickness for either arm so I might be comparing apples to oranges.  I expected a lower mass for the magnesium arm.

The effective mass for the GAE is 12gm based on my findings in a review on the table. 

Does anyone know what the tonearm mass is on the GAE?  An AT-ART9 just arrived and I'm not sure which headshell to use.  I have a magnesium HS-25 and the original that came with the GAE.  The HS-25 is about 12 grams.  Audio-Technica says the ART9 prefers a lower mass arm.  I'm still very green at turntable setup so I'm not sure how to determine the best headshell.  Thanks in advance!

In the original post concerning the power supplies I wrote:

Last evening (out of boredom) I took the SMPS out of my Mac Mini and wired in a regulated SMPS, held my breath and fired it up (probably the wrong term to use when discussing computers :).

That is incorrect, I intended to write:

Last evening (out of boredom) I took the SMPS out of my Mac Mini and wired in a regulated linear power supply, held my breath and fired it up (probably the wrong term to use when discussing computers :).

Forgive my typo please:

I intended to convey that before the upgraded power supply was placed in the man, the GAE presented a better musical experience in the vast majority of the cases unless the LP I was comparing was simply an inferior recording. 

It should be noted that before I replaced the SMPS in my Mac mini with the regulated linear power supply it was mostly better than my digital and that with a Denon 103R. In all fairness, the phono stage is the fabulous AMR PH77 with a set of Bendix 6900 tubes doing the heavy lifting. 

Achilles heel:

Is the GAE perfect? The answer is no and I have known it's problem since before it was released. Early in my quest for this table I sent an email to the support department at Panasonic that handles the GAE and inquired as to the type of Power Supply is contains. I feared it would be an SMPS and they confirmed my fears. In this day and age one almost expects these abominations to high end audio. They are cheap to build although some are built much better than others (iFi comes to mind) and they are lite in weight therefore companies reap huge saving not having to ship heavy iron. The catch is that they ALL SUCK and I mean that. They literally pull your audio system down. I will describe what I hear when a SMPS is plugged in anywhere near my system. The roundness and air of the performance evaporate to be replaced with a cold and somewhat hard stridency. In the worst cases it can literally sound like really bad digital (using digital in the pejorative sense). 

Whenever I would listen to my SP10 Mk3 I would unplug both the GAE and my Mac Mini. When I would listen to the GAE I would unplug the Mac.., etc..  

My GAE is up for (reversible surgery), I am building a linear regulated PS for the unit. The result of the SMPS has nothing to do with cogging. It is directly related to the high frequency hash/noise that SMPS units invariably send back into the mains and interject on the ground thereby infecting your other gear via the ground on your interconnects.

Last evening (out of boredom) I took the SMPS out of my Mac Mini and wired in a regulated SMPS, held my breath and fired it up (probably the wrong term to use when discussing computers :). 

I hate to sound like a cliche, but my Mac mini going into an iFi iUSB 3.0 (itself setup and working with a regulated linear 9v lab grade supply) astonished me. It sounded, yes I am going to say it because it's true, like a turntable. Yeah I said it :) 

My red book ripped cd's sound like very good hi res recordings and on recordings in which I have the LP and CD (ripped full resolution to the hdd and played back with Pure Music (my choice of playback software for the last 9 years)) the Mac is better. I used Jacintha's Here's to Ben (45rpm), playing "Danny Boy" compared to the ripped CD version on FIM Recordings. The digital was better. Now, I know this is because the SMPS in the GAE brings the overall quality of my whole system down. It will tilt the other way when I install the apparatus for the linear supply.

As stated earlier, I already knew the SMPS would have to go even before I received the unit.  My iFi iCan Pro is also being fed with a regulated LPS. 

The only passive devices I have found to work really really well in combatting the nasties of SMPS's is Blue Circles line of filters. They work wonders BUT no SMPS's is the best solution. 

I even unplug my plasma TV when listening. 

The further downstream any device that uses a SMPS is from your system the better. 

In the case of the GAE, I knew I would have to do this but still found the table to be an incredible value due to the technology involved and the motor.   SMSP's are a fact of life these days, but it is relatively painless to replace them. 

Try this, listen to a passage on your system, preferably an intimate uncomplicated vocal track, stop, plug in anything with a SMPS near your stereo. Computer, iPad, cable box anything and listen to the same sample of music again. 

They are about $3400 in Japan.   Not a big difference with the US price.
http://kakaku.com/search_results/Technics+1200G/

Just returned from 2 weeks in Tokyo, where I visited Akihabara twice.  The new 1200 was on display at several stores both small and large.  Sorry I did not have the presence of mind to price it out, but it's available in Japan, at least.

A good friend loaned me his Kiseki Purpleheart NS to try on the GAE. To say it was beautiful sounding is an understatement. The arm on the table is wonderful and far better than the its look-alike cousin on the SL1200 and its variants. Note that I am not knocking the arm on the Sl1200mkX as its main issue was the wiring, which can always be replaced. 

The GAE immediately showed me the difference between my D103R and the Kiseki. The Denon sounding beautiful on the table if not the most resolving MC but for $380 the 103R is an incredible bargain. I really believe one may need to spend about $2k - $2.5k to significantly beat a properly setup and run-in 103R. 

I did compare it to my Anna/4Point combination on the SP10 MK3. I will say that money when one knows what they are doing can buy you a lot more sound. This is not a case of diminishing returns, the latter system bettered it in every way but let's be fair, the arm/cart cost is 4 times the cost of the GAE. 

One day when I have the time I will place the Anna on the GAE and then see what's what. 

Based on what I heard, I will NOT be changing the arm on my GAE. I will be installing a much higher end cartridge along with acquiring a Myajima Zero (which was one of the main reasons I purchased this wonderful table). 

So far as I know the 1200G is not available yet in the US.  I have been hearing prices of around $3700.

The 1200G is now on sale here in Norway.  The price is 3.000 NoK (about $370) higher than for the 1200GAE.  Didn't expect that. How is it in your countries?

Interesting video on the SL 1200 G.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/technics-explains-whats-so-good-about-sl-1200g-turntable

My bad, I meant to write that I have it operating at about 0.70 kg-cm.

I would describe the difference as follows; say you've finally met that nifty girl and your really like her, so you hold her hand tightly. She knows you like her but it is uncomfortable for both of you, so you loosen your grip a bit. 

You both feel better and she still knows you like her. Ok, now I am laughing at myself (I need to stop listening and get some sleep). Corny, I know but at the higher torque settings, it just seems that the table is holding on to the music a little to tightly. 

Backing the torque off gives the  music room to breathe, it really is quite a dramatic change in presentation. 

Andysf:

The fact that lowering the torque made such a profound difference caught me of guard a bit. My Mk3 has 16Kg-cm starting torque (what it is nominally I haven't a clue). I calculate that I have my GAE operating between 1.3 and 1.45 kg-cm of torque. The maximum is 3.3kg-cm. Whereas at max torque in manual or when set to auto the table locks speed in about a 0.3 seconds it now takes about 1.8 seconds to come to speed. YMMV but it is most beneficial in my system :)

Typo correction: "saturation"

Thanks Andysf.

I looked at that graph, smh. This is a marketing stunt. They have a formula which based on their premise would have all and EVERY 12 pole motor cogging, coreless or with iron. Further they state this is a 12 pole motor when the lead engineer stated it is a 9 pole motor. This is marketing.

You know, I am not a fan of belt drive, guess where you are unlikely to see me wasting my time (or theirs) telling people why I don't like belt drive? On a thread for belt drive tables. Why would I want to be a sower of discord for those who may love their belt driven table.

I feel like I am taking crazy pills. No IRON, no stuturation, no interaction between the flux harmonics in the air gap. The fact that they claim to see the EXACT same result on two completely different types of motors, iron-core based and coreless would immediately cause this engineer to ponder if they are measuring what they think they are measuring. (Charlie Brown yell after he misses the football yet again)

I think this table has some people shaking in ther proverbial boots.

Hey, let's stipulate that is is the worst cogging table extant.., guess what, it is still one of the finest tables I have ever heard and I know a current beautiful $40k belt driven table (which is highly praised and for good reason) that this table would beat in most if not all major categories.

For those that own this table, ignore the noise (pun intended) and enjoy your table, you are among the fortunate few :)
I'm done talking about the nonsense of cogging, I want to engage with people who actually want to enjoy exchanging our experiences with this table and those who earnestly just want to know more about it.

I did some serious listening late last eve (paid for that this morning) and I was amazed at the digital like solidity in the pitch. I mean just flat DEAD-ON, not a quiver but yet with the magic that (at this point in time) it appears only analog can achieve. 

Don't get me wrong, I still love my digital, I listen to both regularly. Good digital can be awfully convincing.., until you play superlative analog :)

"Which brings me to cogging. We encountered this after fitting a Mike New bearing to our Timestep Evo SL-1210 Mk2. It increased drag a little by being larger in diameter and lubricated by heavier oil, showing the old motor didn’t have ‘enough in reserve’ to cope with the change. The cogging that appeared was at 6.6Hz (see our Feb 15 issue) but since it measured a very low 0.05% it was hardly a mechanical disaster and unlikely to have any major influence on sound quality.

   Ironically, our analysis of the new motor shows an identical component at 6.6Hz so it too is a 12 pole motor spinning at 33rpm (12 x 0.55Hz = 6.6Hz) and this is what our analysis makes clear. So cogging has not been eliminated; it exists at a very low level, much like before. But platter weight and quality of construction has improved – the important point.

What I’ll finally note with regard to the platter is that it is all-metal and not a large, heavy acrylic disc of the sort common to belt drives – and this likely influences its sound more than the minimal amounts of cogging our high resolution spectrum analysis is able to detect."

Here is the ULR for Hifi World review in which they mentioned it.

Again, I think the general reviews have been very good and with Timesteps mod it might be a case of the excellent being the enemy of the very, very good.

Audiofun:  I have been enjoying your comments on your new table, especially as you are able to compare it to  SP-10 MK3.  Interesting that reducing the torque improves the sound.

Raymonda:  I have been unable to find any references online to "the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has."  Even Timestep, which is pushing its mods, describes the table as "superb" but improvable with their own PS and a SME tonearm, said to reduce the "haze" they hear.
 The SME tonearm reduces the ability to easily change cartridges, one of the advantages of the original arm.

Free upgrade for your SL1200 G/GAE :)

Now that I have some miles on my table and I am familiar enough with its various traits I decided to experiment with the Auto/Manual Torque setting. It comes from the factory set to A (auto). It sounds excellent but the sustain/decay are not quite there with my Mk3. Well, was I surprised when I placed it in M (manual) mode and started experimenting with various torque settings via the potentiometer under the platter (accessible with the platter in place). My ears tell me that somewhere south of the mid point (I have mine set to 1/5 maximum torque) sounds best.

I find it more languid (not lazy) and relaxed sounding than auto mode or when the torque is cranked up in manual mode. To make sure I wasn't losing anything in the areas of slam and dynamics or bass I listened intently to Dexter Gordon's "Tanya" on the album One Flight Up. There was no loss of any of the aforementioned attributes.

It is vocals where I here the largest benefit.

The table is even better than I thought it was. I believe the Stereophile pre-review mentioned a slightly disminished sustain, trust me, adjusting the torque profile will give it to you and then some.

Would love to hear some of your thoughts if you decide to experiment :)

Also note that this table is software driven and also has two sensors designed to detect and defeat any type of motor related vibrartory issues. This table uses an incredibly complex CPU and software stack to perform its duties. I can tell you FIRST HAND as an actual owner/user that this thing has the rotational smoothness and continuousness of my MK3. In other words THEY NAILED IT!!!

And why not, the designer of this table uses a SP10 MK3 as his personal reference. 

The mods are nothing more than a switch from a SMPS to a linear PS  and a tone arm swap. I personally would not swap the arm for a SME even if I felt like it needed to be swapped. I feel the arm is more than capable and that's after listening to my Kuzma 4 Point/Anna on my Mk3 right behind my GAE. 

This mod will have nothing and I mean nothing to do with cogging as this motor has no iron core and thus no magnetic hysteresis regardless of TimeSteps marketing. They also state that it takes a "haze" away from the table. If you want to sharpen the sound of the table, lose the stock rubber mat and replace the feet with "TrackAudio" feet or something non-springy. I have mine on inexpensive wooden blocks for now and I find it to sound less lush but tighter and more accurate overall. 

Now, as a person who hates SMPS I will admit that a linear supply would be desirable to me ONLY because I don't like how SMPS's (regardless of the product) affect my systems sound. I usually go so far as to unplug my plasma tv, routers, hard drives..,etc when doing serious listening. 

This is an easy mod to perform, I could easily open the unit and solder 2 wires to the circuit board and connect to one of my variable linear regulated lab power supplies which can supply up to 25 amps. 
I do this with some of my iFi gear. 

This ain't rocket science. 

As in all things audio, where some see beauty others see moles. 

My question is, "What is it that Timestep identifies with the drive that led them to such radical mods?" 

You can read their whites papers on line, and they convey a strong rational, albeit, I don't have the knowledge or instruments to verify their findings. Are they full of it, or is there really a mole on the Mona Lisa? 

Maybe it is a matter of excellence being the enemy of the very good.

Agreed .... $4000 is a bargain. Can't imagine any other manufacturer producing this table for under $10k. Easily one of the most significant audio products released in many years. Bravo Technics.

To those interested there is an interesting article discussing how Abbey Road Studios was so impressed with the table that they have installed them in their mastering studios.

http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-news/abbey-road-technics-sl-1200-turntables/

I frankly don't care what it does or doesn't do. This is what has been reported by others and the subsequent mods they have done to correct it.

Now if they would have improved upon its look they might have hooked me. I also feel I would preferred leaving the tone arm choice up to me.

OOPS!!! I literally ment to type "Mr. Fremer" and not Framer. That was autocorrect and it did it again when I was trying to post this retraction but I caught it this time. 

No disrespect intended, I generally enjoy Mr. Fremers reviews and I certainly appreciate what he does for the world of vinyl. I also enjoy getting to hear his Caliburn on the YouTube vids he posts. 

All direct drives do not cog. Any non-coreless motor can cog, including belt drive tables. Also, because a belt drive is usually turning at 300rpm, multiple resonance modes are being induced into the platter. Now, I'll admit that I have yet to hear a belt drive that I like as I prefer idlers and direct drive table. I can always hear the motors in belt drive tables from several feet away at 33.3 rpm, including one very nice $40k belt drive table I have recently evaluated. I was shocked that I could hear the very very heavy motor as it spun. I can not hear my GAE or SP10 mk3 motors at 33.3 rpm even with my ear on the plinth. 

The belt drives have their place I am sure but for me they simply lack drive/force, a sense of power if you will. Idlers and directs have this attribute which I am partial to. 

Better direct drive including the SL1200 Mk2 also do not "hunt and seek" as Mr. Framer and others have alleged in times past. That is why it is call a Quartz -Lock. It locks to speed and adjusts when a load change is detected. All one has to do is scope (O'scope) the table and look at the resultant wave-form. Cheap tables may exhibit that undesirable behavior but even the SL1200 MK X did not behave in that manner. 

Now, having made my thoughts public, I have nothing against belt drive tables other than the fact that I've never heard one that I prefer over a direct or idler. Never heard a Caliburn :)

Just wanted to comment on some things I see posted over and over and which I know to be in error. 

I own the Sl1200 GAE and an Artisan Fidelity SP10 Mk3 NG and I can say that the new table sounds awesome and it does not cog. 

I ran my table at 78 rpm for about 200 hours to seat the bearing. This makes a big difference. I think it was an incredible value and cheap at $4k. Just look at what the other companies are charging for tables direct or belt that have nothing like the technology or build quality of the GAE. 

All direct drives cog. Whether or not you hear it or notice it's impact is individualized. Timestep does the mods. Feel free to go to their website for more information.

"Mods are already being done to the power supply, thus improving the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has."

Haven't heard any reports of this supposed "problematic cogging effect" from users.  Would like to hear from anyone who has experienced it!

Mods are already being done to the power supply, thus improving the apparent and still problematic cogging effect that the new unit has. Also, replacing the tonearm plate and tone arm appears to bring the table up to snuff with some reports indicating that it approaches the Sp10 mkiii. It also adds another 3000 or more to the cost, but then you have an almost realized product.

I guess if you can get one discounted at around 1000 and then invest the rest in the mods you'll have a nice sounding table, if you can get over the DJ looks. I rather spend my money on something else.

Hi Billallen10, any updates on your technics 1200gae?

pryso, P-mount, Universal, I assumed they were the same. Thanks for that.

totem, for many years I used a level followed by carefully listening to a test record for my azimuth adjustment. Then I borrowed a Fozgometer and realized a greater accuracy and an improvement in staging.  
To complicate things further the Well Tempered Classic has a slightly concave plater. 

johnny
Also, I check for and adjust for azimuth by setting a small bubble level on the top of the headshell

I use a bubble also but find a pencil lead if able to be kept in place
my go to choice.

Also, as noted, I don't believe the standard SL headshell is a P-mount. At least the one I saw at THE Show Newport in the Technics room had a standard 1/2" universal headshell.

No one on this thread said that the standard Technics SL12x0 series headshell is a P-mount. Did you see such a statement somewhere else?  It's always been the universal 1/2" headshell going back to its introduction in 1972. 

m-db, ah yes, I'd forgotten about the WTTA.  And I owned one, but that was many years ago and thus my excuse.  Still, I can't think of any others.

Also, as noted, I don't believe the standard SL headshell is a P-mount.  At least the one I saw at THE Show Newport in the Technics room had a standard 1/2" universal headshell.

While the SL does allow limited azimuth adjustment, spinning the P-mount head shell is a time consuming hit or miss affair.

I think you mean 1/2" universal headshell. P-mount is a non-adjustable plug-in with no lead wires to attach. The Jelco HS-20, HS-25, and HS-30 universal 1/2" headshells all include azimuth adjustment. 

The HS-20 is available in the US as the Sumiko HS12 headshell; the HS-25 is available as the LP Gear ZuPreme. The ZuPreme is the better deal---$54.95 with built-in finger lift vs. $90 for the Sumiko with a fussy finger lift that requires threading the cartridge mounting bolts through the cartidge, headshell, and finger lift.

Also, I check for and adjust for azimuth by setting a small bubble level on the top of the headshell (with stylus guard in place), loosening the hex set screw to rotate the headshell until the bubble indicates it's level, and then tightening it again. 

@m-db  
Pretty certain "on the fly" relative to turntable adjustments usually means while playing a record.  Are you saying your WTC lets you adjust azimuth with the arm lowered and the needle in the groove of a spinning record?  

Anti-skate, VTA, and azimuth, adjustments can be made on the fly with my Well Tempered Classic with fork towered arm. As the quality of my phono section and cartridge improved these vernier adjustments became much more important in dialing in the decks presentation during play. 

While the SL does allow limited azimuth adjustment, spinning the P-mount head shell is a time consuming hit or miss affair. Guess I'm spoiled. 

"its S shape prevents an on the fly azimuth adjustment. WTF?"

With most arms azimuth is set at the headshell, few rotate the arm tube itself.  So why does it matter if S shape, J, or straight with offset headshell?

Actually I can't think of ANY arm that allows azimuth "on the fly", fortunately some do allow for VTA. 

pryso, I agree. Your post got me thinking about what may have driven this design.
For me a glaring motive was maintaining the iconic look that even a line image of it is now easily recognizable as a turntable by people who may have never seen a turntable in person. 

Would a weekend scratcher pitch $8K for a pair of decks when the Pioneer version are the hot ticket at their local GC, definitely not. On the other hand there are plenty of concert level pro DJs who wouldn't blink at the status improvement like a set of twenty-two inch rims.

I can't imagine what they were thinking when improving that damn arm. Its 2016 and that VTA adjustment still can't be safely done on the fly and its S shape prevents an on the fly azimuth adjustment. WTF? 

Hi lewm, I have talked to Bill Allen on the phone,  yes, he did cryogenic the entire 1200 gae turntable,  however,  you need to know,  he uses 100% mined silver cable's,  to me,  could have been bad for stock gae, Bill claims the cryogenic treatment pleased his sound impression's to what he uses for his system,  👀🎶🎺🎻