I am upgrading my system like a lot of us who follow Audiogon. I read a lot about musicality on Audiogon as though the search for musicality can ultimately end by acquiring the perfect music system -- or the best system that one can afford. I really appreciate the sonic improvements that new components, cables, plugs and tweaks are bringing to my own system. But ultimately a lot of musicality comes from within and not from without. I probably appreciated my Rocket Radio and my first transistor radio in the 1950s as much I do my high-end system in 2010. Appreciating good music is not only a matter of how good your equipment is. It is a measure of how musical a person you are. Most people appreciate good music but some people are born more musical than others and appreciate singing in the shower as much as they do listening to a high-end system or playing a musical instrument or attending a concert. Music begins in the soul. It is not only a function of how good a system you have.
The term musicality gets used in different ways by different audiophiles, but there is one usage that I find the most informative: A system is described as musical when the sound it produces is perceived by the listener as a GESTALT, rather than a collection of individual elements like resolution, tonal balance, imaging, and so on.
Of course, the likelihood of gestalt perception depends as much on the inclinations of the listener as it does the characteristics of the system. Some people seem naturally inclined to listen analytically, and some systems seem to promote that. Other people seem naturally inclined to listen holistically, and some systems seem to promote that. When a system tends to promote holistic listening, it is often described as musical. And that seems to me to be a useful enough adjective to have around.
On top of whatever electronics you arrive at, you gotta like/love the genre you're listening to. To complete the "musicality" definition, the quality of recording is equally vital. High quality recordings are so enjoyable to hear and listen to and really help define musicality. Sometimes this attribute facilitates discovery and develop appreciation of a genre previously disregarded.
"Musicality" = a term used where there is no objective basis for preferring an item; usually in the context of justifying a purchase or as a sales tactic.
It seems to me just from the Ops initial post that experience also plays a significant role and not merely what devices are on hand or could be had if dreams could be handily realized.
Unless one is tone deaf or the easiest person on the planet to please, no ambiguous or haphazard set of audio appliances just thrown together is going to achieve a thoroughly involving level of musicality. Especially right off the bat.
If such has been a past or present experience, rush out and buy at least one lottery ticket, as it looks like youre one lucky son of a gun.
The more experience one can attain, be it first handed, by trial or error, or just from the wisdom of others, its a necessity if the aim is to obtain such an end. Truly engaging, entertaining, and honest recreation of the music one chooses to audition must contain the soul of its author. The force of its intent. The excerpt has to capture the llistener with some indescribable net that seems woven out of pure magic.
Therefore, I think it safe to say a decent connotation for the term Musicality is that it is the sum of more than its more obvious and noteable segments .
it is the single most indescribable facet of music. It is life and breath were none could possibly be. Its the allure and intrigue that simply shouldnt occur.
Its that element that compels us to listen further for pleasure than to listen for and await possible anomolies. Its enjoyable and fascinating. Its a comfortable invitation to revisit favorable memories and adventure into some as yet unknown with eager anticipation. A quality that reaches well into the mind and touch the soul itself.
It could be put as simply as the Knee bobbing and toe tapping factor too, I suppose.
Winston Churchill's quotation, made in a radio broadcast in October 1939: wherein he fielded a question on future events regarding Russia and/or its intnetions "I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma .but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest." Musicality might very well be revealed as exactly that It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma Whatever it actually is by ones definition, it sure is the aim and intended result so many audio enthusiasts ascribe to reproduce.
An audio buddy once said to me long ago that someone with a large record (music) collection that overshadows his system is someone into the music. Someone with a stereo system that overshadows their music collection is into the electronics. His record collection was enormous. His stereo also sounded very good. He must of had an oil well somewhere (just not in the Gulf). No reason to disdain one type of person or the other. I enjoy the music very much, but I also enjoy the hobby/art of reproducing music. Over the years I have trended from one side to the other. When I get the bug in me, I start analysing the music and generally walk away from my system unsatisfied because I didn't hear the music, just the bass, imaging, highs, soundstage, etc. When I get through those phases and back to just enjoying the music, then the stress from work goes away and I finish the evening with a smile and the anticipation of the next listening session. I remember one time years ago wandering around a nice stereo shop wondering why I was there. My system sounded good and was giving me musical pleasure when listening to it. Nothing in the store sounded better to me than what I already had. Then suddenly, most of the stereo shops disappeared. It makes it hard now days to listen to different systems to compare and contrast how my own stereo is doing.
i believe music can be experienced on as many different levels as there are levels of consciousness pertaining to our 1.senses 2.our cognitive ablilities as well as 3.our emotional perceptions. while reading these responses to the question i thought about my tivoli radio vs my "audiophile system". the radio sounds unfailingly musical, especially on jazz broadcasts- smooth with a nice beat and great texture throughout the midrange. it lacks extended high frequencies BUT OTOH there is rarely any harshness to the upper mids and treble. In the living room there's my Stereo System with tremendous dynamics, loads of detail, very low distortion, but thankfully with a good measure of emotional content as well. trouble is, with SO MUCH GOING ON, EACH recording PLUS my RECEPTIVITY at the time i am listening becomes part of a much more complex set of reactions and affects how much i am really getting into the music. for example, i have been playing around lately with some new SACD'S i've acquired and have to admit they are really very good. some would even say that once you've heard HI-REZ that "there's no going back", etc. BUT yesterday i "went back" and put on a Mozart piano concerto played by V.Ashkenazy, whose playing is so inspiring that i was, after the first few minutes of criticizing the recording quality in one part of my brain, got subsequently swept away by the performance. and after all, the cd didn't REALLY sound that bad- just not as good as some other material that i have. Of course if you ask me on another day i might go on and on about how good some recordings sound over others. BUT hey, i am just happy that, at the end of the day, i don't have to "sweat" whether or not i am having a good time.
Musicality was either A) a late 60's or early 70's group that sounded great live yet no matter what or how they recorded and no matter what or how one tweaked one's system, it just couldn't produce the same effect. or B) a long lost lamented company that produced a string of products that no matter what it was or inserted into it's proper place in the chain produced an effect so great no that no more was needed.
a lot of systems make musicality a music casualty but some who care about the way sound moves them and not the way sound is supposed to be are already there and no more is needed. If the music moves you its there and if it doesn't it doesn't matter what else might be.
I'm on board with those who define the term to mean the disappearing act that well-assembled system is capable of - when the system is gone and all that's there is the music...it is about engagement. My acid test for a system is how easy it is to get up and walk away from it, vs how much it has you riveted to the music and emotions. Musicality, for me, has everything to do with that.
I also have very similar experiences with many musicians I know - they listen in a completely different way than I do and are far more particular about content, seeming to have a more narrow set of preferences. My wife was trained as a musician (though no longer plays) and comes from a family of classical musicians. She describes her experience of music in the way her mind will become locked into the progression of the notes and follow them, anticipating the next line. In this way, for her, it is difficult for her to concentrate on other things when music is playing. I would prefer to having music playing as a soundtrack to pretty much everything in life. It enhances most things for me, and I work and function better with than without. I've never been very musical myself, and don't play any instruments or read music, but have had a lifelong passion for listening to music.
Critical listening of a system, for me is the antithesis of enjoying music. If I am listening for the quality of components or changes in components I find it is the farthest removed from enjoying the music as I can be. I try to do that as infrequently as possible as it is really not that enjoyable for me simply for that reason alone. It's like having sex without any connection or emotion. The contrast to the opposite experience is quite stark.
It means your system sounds like music, music that draws you into the enjoyment and involvement of and in it.
It's the opposite of "sounding like a stereo system" which is obviously and painfully electronically recreating the music in an artificial sounding way.
Tvad nailed it..
IMO, a musical system is one that let's you forget about the equipment and allows you to listen to the music without analyzing the sound. Simple as that.
I used to be an audiophile, but I think the older I get and the more gear I EXPERIENCE the more I just want a system that let's me enjoy my music and stop trying to extract that last ounce of something sonically.
Kijanki - I am not suggesting that at all. In fact, I agree with you completely. I have a good friend who is an excellent musician - a guitarist and singer. He has been performing professionally since the 1960s and has backed up many very well-known groups. I was surprised one day to discover that he is really not a very good listener at all when we got together to appreciate all the upgrades I had made to my system which I thought were quite impressive. He payed slight interest to the improved quality of sound that my system was producing and it seemed like the whole thing just passed him over. In fact my own musicianship was so mediocre that, after struggling with classical piano for 12 years, I threw in the towel - about 12 years before I should have. My piano teacher always used to tell me I should be a singer and I did in fact become a singer - accompanying the music that has emanated from the various systems I have owned over the years.
Sabai - Are you suggesting that musicians are better listeners? Nothing can be further from the truth. I have a friend who is jazz musician with degree in music (oboe) but he enjoys playing more than listening. My brother on the other hand finds Nirvana in listening to music from all over the world, from ancient to modern - being even almost an expert in Indian Classical music. He never played any instrument nor he was ever interested. He cannot even sing in tune. Music to him is his whole life.
Creating, Performing, and Receiving are separate things. Performers are not the best receivers of music, composers are not the best performers etc. There are types of music that cannot be even performed by western musicians and types of music that cannot be performed at all (Conlon Nancarrow studies for player piano) - I still enjoy it.
I was happily surprised to wake up this morning to read all of the responses to the question that I posed to everyone yesterday. My question was leading in the direction of the importance of the inner person -- whose inner ear is undeniably "influenced" by the quality of the sound that his system is producing. Ultimately, where is the music located that we are appreciating? Is it coming from the system and the speakers? Is it in the air between the speaker and our ears? Or is it in our ears and our brains that receive the sounds? Or is it in all of these locations? My question was leading in the direction of the importance of the listener and how each of us hears what our systems produce. Ultimately, the music is inside each of us. Our ability to appreciate our music is a function of how musical WE are as well as the quality of our systems. I have a very old friend, Alex, who is now 85 years old. He was a jazz pianist and drummer and either knew or saw most of the greats of yesteryear. He saw Art Tatum in a small basement club in New York City. He introduced Stan Kenton on stage. Stan's kids used to play with his own kids. Alex's hearing is now quite impaired. He said to me recently that it would be a waste of money for him to upgrade his vintage Marantz/JBL system because he just can't hear the high frequencies anymore. But Alex and I spend afternoons listening to the old standards and watching the videos of the greats of years gone by and Alex still appreciates music as much as just about anyone I know, including my audiophile friends with modern systems. Musicality resides with the listener. The equipment resides on the shelf. We are all striving to create the best system we can. I certainly am with equipment from EMM and Marantz and Merlin Music and Audio Magic and Oyaide. But my own sense of musicality -- how I hear what my equipment produces and how much I appreciate what I hear -- is the ultimate determinant of how much I am able to appreciate what my equipment produces. We all like to A/B and do the best we can to upgrade and tweak our systems. But in the end we have to just lay back and enjoy the best sound that we are able to afford. We may not be able to afford the "perfect" system but we can enjoy what we have with a sense of musicality that is actually the most important component in our system. Are you "missing" something in your system? Most of us are "missing" something but if we have a strong sense of musicality then we are not "missing" anything at all because the music resides within our hearts.
This is great!!!! One of the best threads I've been part of since being here.... I would be interested to know what designs, brands and methods everyone thinks is musical vs. non-musical?
For example....
I like single ended triodes and "Gainclone" chip amps, and also NOS DACs and single driver speakers.
I do not like horns, over powered solid state and large, multi-driver speakers.
Kijanki, I have no problem with anyone analyzing music or gear, but if your system can only get you to scenario 2 and not scenario 1, then it is not what most people mean when they use the term musical.
I also said, "but in the back of your mind something is telling you that there is something missing in the music." I think that it is important to listen to that little voice no matter how much you want to like the gear or how much you think you are suposed to like the gear.
I also have no problem with people who prefer a system that produces scenario 2 and not scenario 1. As I said, We all hear differently, and let me add that we all enjoy different gear and different music.
I hear this mantra often "foot tapping music", "don't worry be happy - and don't analyze".
So, shall we put random pieces together until it clicks after 1000 iterations? We all analyze, but for some reason don't want to admit it. I'm pretty sure that I would find in your posts analysis of bass, treble, imaging etc. No one is free from that.
A musical system will cause your foot to tap and you to think only about how good the music sounds or to get lost in a pleasant reverie.
If you are thinking about how detailed the sound is or how tight the bass is or how sharp the transient edges are but in the back of your mind something is telling you that there is something missing in the music, the system is not musical.
Each person must decide for himself if a system is musical. We all hear differently.
Musicality is one of the most important Alities that are in the science of sound and visual interpretation. I will stick with sound here. Musicality is the ability to bring the musical experience to ones psyche, to create the illusion of actual music being heard. It can also be used as a discription for a component that you spent a really lot of money on and though it may not sound any better, you think it does as you are looking at the entry in your check book and suddenly realize how much musicality it brings to your life. The only thing more important than musicality is morality. More of everything. If you have morality in your listening experience you have reached the Absolute Sound, better than live because it has more.
Let me explain. Sound without distortion might seem analytical or lifeless since distortion adds "kick" - just compare distorted guitar and clean jazz guitar. I even read negative user opinion of my Benchmark DAC1 that claims that each instrument can be heard independently instead of preferred "sound blob".
As for appreciating music more by musical people who sing in the shower - creating, performing and receiving are completely different things. One doesn't have to have music inside (soul as you called it) to be able to receive it. More, people who create music often have complete disregard for good sound. Same often goes for performers.
Musicality is often associated with warm sound that has enhanced even harmonics therefore colored. Warm sound might be good for guitar or voice but is not so good if instrument has complex harmonic structure (piano, percussion instruments). Piano sounds, on very warm gear like out of tune. That was the reason why Benchmark's technical director John Siau did not want Benchmark to sound warm. I remember reading about test conducted with Benchmark and few other DACs in recording studio. Benchmark was the most accurate, according to sound engineers (also audiophiles) and worst sounding according to regular users. To me Benchmark sounded too clean at the beginning as well - made impression of missing instruments in known recordings. One has to learn to listen, I guess.
Let me introduce other label (not mentioned so far)- NEUTRAL, CLEAN, TRANSPARENT, RESOLVING, PURE
In non-auditory terms baked potato rather than Pringles potato chips.
Both can be good but one is complete, original, and ultimately satifying while the other is only pieces mashed together held with artifical binders that has been manipulated into a flavor like the original but that leaves a vague and unsatisfying aftertaste.
I'll take a chance at this, since I use the term "musical" a lot to describe components and/or systems....
At the end of the day, I just want to have a better experience with MUSIC, and will always choose a component and system based on this. I don't care about technical specs, loudness and analyzing sound....I just want the music to sound as good as possible.
Some "hifi" gear and systems sound dead, lifeless. It seems like some people want to "analyze sound" instead of listen to music. While I have a great appreciation for technical engineering and design, most of the gear is not something I would want, because of both the price and the lack of "musicality".
I'm not saying that my opinion is right, because music and listening to music is a very subjective thing. I also realize that some people say these exact things who like other gear that I would label "analytical", so I'm not completely sure if any of the "labels & terms" work. ;)
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