What is it in MM that can give me goose-bumps? 🤔

OK Raul thanks. 

this is difficult getting hunting for vintage.

Dear @anthonya :  Due that the Stanton caNTILEVER/STYLUS HOLDER IS WAY RESONANT BECAUSE  it don't rest in the cartridge body tight as shouldbe then the best Stanton ever is the 981 with a Pickering top original cantilever/stylus holder that even in its constructionis way more solid that the Stanton one and additional to that it rest tight inside the 981. No one Stanton/Pickering can beats it.

I know that because I own the 981 and Pickering too and I tested in that way to see what happens and you know what: there is no return, outstanding quality performance levels. I posted this more than one time in the MM long thread.

R.

@chakster

good to know.

Any carts that worth its time using jico?

Hico made some many cheap styli just to let people buy something for their old cheap cartridges. JICO SAS is extremely expensive profile and not available for all cartridges. I think it’s better to invest in original design and to fidn a genuine stylus if the price difference between original and JIC SAS is not big. As far as I know SAS is not available for Stanton/Pickering. Look for original Stereohedron. BTW the price you have mentioned from someone else for XSV/5000 is a fair price in my opinion. If the XSV/3000 is something like $350 then each next upper model is +$200 at least (and there are XLZ4500, XSV/5000, XLZ/7500). 

@anthonya : Jico SAS with:  Garrot, Shure, JVC and some others.


R.

@chakster 

good to know. 

Any carts that worth its time using jico? 

@anthonyaI have all of them (high output XSV/5000, low output XLZ/4500, XLZ/7500), fully original with Stereohedron styli, using Jico or any other fake styli on Stanton/Picekring makes no sense. Genuine Pickering/Stanton top models goes up in price in time and the reason is outstanding sound quality.

My favorite Stanton is CS-100 WOS with Stereohedron mkII 

@rauliruegas thanks for info.
I had been looking for xsv5000. 800 dollars with original stylus. can't afford that yet. 
I had tried jico stylus on other Stanton. it's horrid. wonder if it's the same case? 

Dear @anthonya :  I owned the EPC205 and AKG P25 and are very good performers and if you want to go with Shure you have to look for the Ultra 400 or 500.

Now about Pickering try to found out the 7500 or at least the 5000. The important subject in any cartridge is not its stylus tip shape but the design of the cartridge motor that's what mnakes the difference for the good or bad, repeat cartridge motor and the 5000/7500 shares the same motor that's different from the 3000/4000.

The ADC 26/27 is a superlative IM cartridge, the best of the best vintage ones, and came with a plastic cartridge body, aluminum cantilever, ellipthical stylus tip and its output connector pins not even gold plated but what a performer and its extremely high quality comes from its cartridge motor.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

oh my friend does appreciate your post.. he actually owned most of the lomc carts you mention. sme. goldmund. pushma. reeds.dr fecker. etc etc most of the hi end tt he had before. your point is proven and got acrossed loud and clear. thank you

actually I heard also very good MC

It's the 10k region to 100hz region that have the tendency to be bleached out, and noise vibration issue .. so unless we know what we are doing and take care of this . it generally won't sound better than MM. mm have worse speed. snap. extended sound. uninhibited and "detailed" 

poorly executed Mc. bleached. lack of room and body. hifi sounding. digital. lack of harmonics. 

in short good Mc can be very expensive to experiment.  maybe my friend had spent over a million through 40 yrs of mc and still.... only somewhat accomplished 
so that's our conclusion

the current mm setting way way more detailed overall if you add the middle frequency. 85 percent of slam and snap of Mc, but stage is way way huger, way better harmonic and insight . we all agree. its simply a more optimized setup 

I must admit that not every MC is bad and not every MM is good.

I prefer some top vintage MM (NOS) because of the obvious difference in performance (and cost) compared to modern MC carts.

I don’t like modern MM cartridges, most of them does not have that magic. Same about most of the modern tubes (vintage NOS always better). 

I like some vintage LOMC too, but they are definitely much more expensive than great vintage MM, and more expensive than some modern MC too.

@chakster thank you for listing out. I always wondered what's the fuss.
I'm one that agree with your thoughts on this 
had a friend for experiment with very expensive gear and Mc setup. tried a high end mm. it just blew his mind with 1/7 th of the cost. it's different but what matters it's music. it's way way easier to make music. 

Mc had always been very tough unless u get everything every thing right. it doesn't really deliver music wise if not done correctly . as I heard good Mc before. but mostly worse than digital audio. I always tease them, is this music or just excitable sound? 

why bother what happens in extreme frequency and there is more data in the 10k to 100hz region. of course good MM can go beyond that but doesn't over cook the frequency extreme  Thus we also conclude this debate ourself

@lewm  
Yes, I should have included IM and MI types in the post's heading.
No argument there. ✔️
Michélle 🇿🇦 

@anthonya

@chakster what do you think about xsv3000 Pickering? or v15 I already have Stanton 780 and epc 205 ciiL and akg pm25 on the way...

I think phono should really sound like master tapes I listen to heaps of them what’s the recommendation for high compliance tonearm.? Victor ua 77 any good?

In 1977 the XSV/3000 was Pickering’s first cartridge with the Stereohedron diamond. It was a totally new stylus shape at that time:

"This new cartridge makes possible a wider, more open, fines sound - because it maximizes stereo tracing capabilities with the slightest, lightest touch a record ever had. It increases record life because force is spread over a greater contact area. And that means the least record wear achievable in these times (with a stereo cartridge)."

In 1979 Pickering introduced an improved version called XSV/4000 and it was in production line until 1993. The XSV/4000 is much better than earlier XSV/3000 mainly because of the lower tip mass and higher compliance, wider frequency response. Then Pickering introduced even better next model (XSV/5000) with Stereohedron mk II stylus tip, and low impedance models such as XLZ/4500 and XLZ/7500 but it’s another story.

The Stereohedron tip design is the result of long research in extended frequency response for tracing of high frequency modulations. Like its cousin, the Quadrahedral, the STEREOHEDRON stylus is shaped to provide an enlarged area of record groove contact, while providing the ability to accurately trace the high frequency, the level modulations found on today’s records, thus, the Stereohedron stylus provides superior performance which low stylus wear and low record wear for your stereo records. As far as i know, chronologically, Pickering XUV/4500Q with Quadrahedron stylus for CD-4 records was the predecessor of the Stereohedron series. The first Stereohedron series was the XSV/3000 model. Reading an old review I noticed that Stereohedron was preferable over Quadrahedron for stereo records. In other words even XSV/3000 was better than XUV/4500Q and XSV/4000 is better than XSV/3000. 

The Stereohedron has a large bearing surface which is distributed over a large portion of the modulated groove, and at the stated optimum tracking force of 1.2 grams, the actual force per unit area is, of course, much less and should significantly contribute to the longevity of recordings. A cartridge is only a link between the cold, lifeless excursion of the record groove and live, rich sound coming from the speakers. Your entire sound system will perform only as good as your cartridge does! Pickering cartridges manufactured at Pickering & Company, INC (Sunnyside Boulevard, Plainview, N.Y. 11803).

Mr. Pickering was one of the founders of the Audio Engineering Society in 1948, was George Szell’s recording consultant, researched violin acoustics and constructed more than fifty vioins and violas and was active in the Violin Society of America. He also worked on ultrasound eye imaging with the technique’s inventor. After the war ended in 1945, Pickering met Mr. Stanton - an engineer who said he could sell all of the pickups he could build. So with some friends he went into business in Oceanside, Long Island and sure enough as many as he could build were quickly sold at first only to radio stations. But by 1947 the demand from high-fidelity fanatics was strong enough for what’s now called a ‘cartridge’ and Pickering & Company was formed to meet the new hobby’s demands. Mr. Stanton invented the interchangeable needle grips Pickering used. By the 1960 Stanton purchased Pickering & Company. He later established Stanton Magnetics Inc in 1961, and soon invented his legendary Stereohedron stylus tip in the 70’s. He was the chairman and president of both Pickering & Co and Stanton Magnetics Inc, designed some amazing cartridges until 1998, then Mr.Stanton sold both companies...

Denon DA-401 is great tonearm for high compliance cartridges.

If you’re looking for Victor then check UA-7045

If you want Stanton then look for 881, 980 or 981 , make sure the stylus is genuine Stereohedron first or mk2 version.

Goose bump non-MC cartridges, in my opinion:
B&O MMC1
Acutex LPM320STRIII
Stanton 981LZS
Grado TLZ

Roughly in that order. None of these, except the Stanton, is an MM type. They’re all IM or MI. The Stanton is a very unusual LOMM.

@chakster what do you think about xsv3000 Pickering?or v15
I already have Stanton 780 and epc 205 ciiL and akg pm25 on the way. 

I for one... also haven't been very impressed with expensive Mc. yes more detail. but not really what turntable should sound like. I think phono should really sound like master tapes I listen to heaps of them 

what's the recommendation for high  compliance tonearm.? Victor ua 77 any good? 

@inna 
So much one could say on this subject... 😏 

But many thanks for your enthusiastic response! 😊 

Michélle 🇿🇦 

South Africa ?! Oh man, I have always wanted to live there. But you are right, not in this time period. However, you are where all things Homo Sapiens began, ancient place.

I forgot two ecellent vintage ones: Nagatron 9600 ( IM ), Azden P50 and Grado Tribute.

Btw, Iown several vintage cartridges, I'm not a seller so stay with me. Fortunatelly and through the MM thread I hade the opportunity to listen the best top MM, MI, IM, Electrect cartridges. You can name any and you can be sure I own or owned and certainly test it /evaluated/listen It.



R.

Ok, back on subject now.
I most resently mounted my Ortofon M20FL super, and in better days also had purched the E super insert (all NOS from Germany).

That one is the most affordable of them all and for this reason it's great cart, I owned several samples, but only FL (FineLine) diamond. 

Remember there is no "best" or "perfect" cartridge, so when someone telling use about one cartridge that better than others it's fake news. 

There are dozen of excellent vintage MM cartridges and it's worth to try all of them. 

Technics is the most problematic of them all, because here we have to deal with the worst rubber damper formula ever made, it could be a serious problem for someone who don't know. 

P.S. I just received my NOS Technics P-205 mk4, gonna try it in a few month when I'll get adapter for p-mount carts. 

100CMK4, sorry.

Dear @justmetoo : As you I really like it those Ortofon MI vintage models. I don’t know why Ortofon detour to other direction and even that its today MM are good performers I think they should be to return with a today new MI be based ( not exactly same one. ) on those vintage ones. I think they can do it.

Today I will start to re-listen to really top vintage MI/MM performers and over the time I want to listen again to those Ortofon that I still own.
Today I will start with the best of the best the: ADC 26/27. No one MM vintage cartridge can even approach its quality performance, not Audio Terchnica, Grace, Stanton, Pickering, Ortofon and the like. The ones that approach that very high quaility levels are MI too: AKG P100 LE, Astatic 2500, Empire 4000D3 and yes exist one MM and is the Technics 100C MK$ stand alone model not the headshell integrated.

Follow enjoying your room/system, this is all about.

R.

@chakster and all

Very dedicated responses, oh yes!
Also the sharing of set-ups for perspective.
Thank you!

My system is by far more 'stream-lined', far less dedicated, far less high-end, and more to my current room (and finacial) abilities. 

So, only one tt, one tonearm - and all SS from the ML 326S preamp included phono boards, (mostly surface mounted devices including op-amps for 40dB and 60dB options, all via internal jumpers, and lowest loading std. 49k ohm, also by tiny jumpers - no viable 100k, more open, loading) to the X350.5 power amp. Amen!

Living in South Africa, and 'suffering the 25th year of 'liberation' and now Covid changes - typical African corruption - the local currency has gone to hell in a hand-basket.) Amen! 

In short I had to learn to do with what I have, aquired some time back in better days, when mail, postal services were actually still functioning, and deliveries not being stolen or 'lost' as it's simply called.
It's all kindly called 'The New Dispensation' and all the world so much happier for it. Amen! 

It will give you some idea, why other than desperate measures, prevent one from purchasing anything other than what's locally still available - and any hi-fi highend kind things are by now 'scarce as chicken teeth'. Amen! 

Why choose to live here?! 
That's too long a story to relate, truly - or why chose people to live in the USSR at the time? 
Maybe less complicated, in general. 

Ok, back on subject now.
I most resently mounted my Ortofon M20FL super, and in better days also had purched the E super insert (all NOS from Germany). 

I'd just followed some positive AGONE block comments on the endlessly long 'Who needs MCs when we have MMs' by Raul... 
Though I wasn't aware at the time, of the 40cu compliance, more like Jello (or Wackelpeter in German :) despite the borderline compatibility with my SME V t-arm, working really great and yet again, sounding noticeably more 'real' than the more 'hyped-up' MC presentations - in my system. 

In closing, maybe it is simply a case of synergy and equipment set-up, as e.g. apparently the ML326S phono-boards where based on the much older reference ML35 phone-pre, add-on unit...
I surmise this to be so, as some time past, I had a chance to test and compare this stand-alone unit. It sounded absolutely the same when compared to my build-in phono-boards. 

So I'm currently enjoying once again the magic sound of an MI cartridge, the M20 E super, at a VTF of 1 gramm! (on a medium effective mass t-arm, 10-11g) and anti-scate force of 0.5 pond, no less! 

This is like the funky 70s - just with better gear, eh? 😅 👏

Michélle 🇿🇦 

Currently using Pickering XSV/5000 (Stereohedron mkII stylus) Moving Magnet cartridge from the late 80’s. Two turntables connected, here is my system, two tonearms on each turntable. Some killer LOMC are here (FR-7fz, Miyabi MCA) on very nice tonearms like Lustre GST-801 and FR-64s with b60. Speakers are Tannoy System 15 mkII.

Pickering XSV/5000 (MM) cartridge is the cheapest of them all (replaced by Grado Signature XTZ), tonearm also much cheaper (Denon DA-401 for high compliance cartridges). I must tell that this XSV/5000 cartridge is amazing.

I like my expensive LOMC too, but MM is a different flavor, 4 times cheaper price than any of my LOMC, same about Denon tonearm for this cart. And I have everything for LOMC (SUTs, high gain phono stages, headamps, current injection phono stages... everything).

There is NOTHING to loose with the right MM, it’s amazing sound for 4 times lower budget, because all you need is MM phono (100k Ohm loading option is a must) and the right tonearm. I prefer high compliance MM.

What you can get for $700 with MM you can’t get even for $3k (including SUT) with MC.

And user replaceable stylus for MM is a great bonus instead of that crazy third party re-tipping service that ruin the originality of your MC. 

Hi, nice discussion, your passion for sound and music shines through.  
My experiences with MM and MC are different and summarizing I believe the key is to find the right MC.  
I agree that really good MMs can convey an emotional sound that seems to go beyond just playing back recorded music.  Pitch and tone along with the smoothness of vinyl can be mesmerizing.  
The problem that I have heard is that it isn't consistent recording to recording, can sound unrefined with challenging ones and lack ultimate dynamics that the best MCs seem to possess.  
If you ever have a chance I recommend trying the Audio Technica ART series MCs, the XA if you have 64db min gain, or the XI if you have 56 to 60 db of gain.  These to me have the best of both MM and MC.  
Ultra refined, dynamic yet with a slightly warm smooth character that is engaging.  

Burmester 961 bass reflex port is in rear of the speaker, 20" off the ground, also not straight but curved, about 30° down inside the speaker and covered with 3mm damping felt layer around outer-side (inside the speaker enclosure). 
Side firing 8" woofers at centre point, are 27" off the ground. 
This, as I understand it, is to reduce floor reflections... 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Dear @justmetoo : I think the main issue belongs not exactly to your room/system/ears ( at least I can't be sure because I don't know for true  its quality level performance. The Burmester is a bass-reflex design and the bass woofers are side firing: the rflex in the design too or at the back?. I have some hyphotesis about the overall issue that I only figure out. ) but a psycho-acustic phenomenom about the kind of whole " color " of MUSIC that moves you the more and LOMC/CD have not that kind of MUSIC color, that's all and this is my take.

So, enjoy it and enjoy what moves you.

R.

As for preferred instruments I much like solo cello and violincello passages and it maybe just also the MM bass performance that tickles my spine (and fancy). 

@rauliruegas 
That 'box' you noted behind the right hand speaker is the side wall of a quite narrow 1' wide only, nine drawer maple wood cabinet.

Since the woofers are side (inside) firing I have not noticed any issue with this arrangement. 
What you do not see in my system pictures is the 20' ceiling height, at the roof ridge, and comprised of a 'open' thatch construction with numerous gum-pole beams to support it all. 

This, in my experience, and compared to previous domiciles, has a much better outcome on room acoustics. 

However even in the lesser acoustic environments my MM cartridges always showed this now at length discussed difference to CD/LOMC presentation. 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Cartridges with user replaceable styli are the best (practically), they are more user friendly and if we can find the one, that can sound really good, it can be the last one. It’s challenge to find one that can sound better than others including more expensive LOMC. But when you will find one, you will be happy! In this process some other snobs opinion is irrelevant, it’s a personal thing, only your own opinion is important when it comes to your own cartridges.

Dear @bdp24  : I posted  "  my take is that both kind of cartridges can give us goose-bumps but in different way in different " gradation " and digital alternative too.

Seems to me that what justmetoo perceives is a room/system acoustical phenomenon ( in that " scenario "/stage. ) and personal preferences.

Digital, MM/MI or LOMC have the real and true capacity to recreate in almost any one ( not biased to one or the other media. ) of us that: goose-bumps at a media gradation levels.

Differences always exist and each one of us are unique about " emotion develops " levels.
What is the musical instrument that moves me the more: female voice followed by piano and the level of performance of any musical instrument has a gradation levels.

I'm not a music player but I know that not all violins or cellos or double bass sounds the same, it sounds different coming from different manufacturers and the player not only makes the instrument choice but the kind of chords to use with but any of those instruments has the same capacity to moves our feelings/emotions at different levels.

MUSIC is just that MUSIC.

R.

Thanks for all new thoughtful responses. 

I can relate to the differences I hear, mostly to do with 'higher naturalness' of timbre.
Meaning MMs appears more matched to my hearing (timbre-memory of natural instruments) then even very good CD/LOMC. 

Maybe sitting in a music hall/theatre the sound also is not all that 'immediate' than it is 'heared' (and recorded) by microphone(s). 

Is it this 'beyond natural' listened-to microphonic-immediacy, reproduced by both CD/LOMC true to the recording, making the difference to the MM's reproduction? 

Also, the more 'sensitive' the reproduction equipment, the more this difference would be apparent, wouldn't it? 

So, possibly the mentioned 'slower' impulse-speed of MM cartridges might simply compensate for these near field microphone positions, most always preferred to avoid too much 'hall information', too much reverb etc. 

This is just my unscientific best guess of what might be at work... 🤔
There always can be just - too much of a good thing - one might call it 'over-definition'... creating a less 'natural' presentation of timbre. 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

PS: Burmestet 961 are quit bass strong to 35Hz, by 8" side firing, light membrane, glass-fibre woofers, very detailed carbon-fibre weave 5¼" mid-woofers (AUDAX HM130CO),  and Air Motion Transformer (JET1 ATM) tweeters. 

Hearing position is near field and seated with ears between mids and woofer levels i.e. below tweeter height. 
ATMs have more lateral and vertical dispersion than do dome-tweeters. 

Ya know, @noromance is right.

In asking about MM's, I take it the op is thinking of such cartridges in terms of their high output voltage compared to that of MC's, correct? Well, the Decca and London cartridges are MI's (Moving Iron), and have extremely high output---5mV!

If it's goosebumps you're looking for, nothing beats a Decca or London. No cantilever (in his early-mid 70's Stereophile reviews of various Decca's, J. Gordon Holt used the term "cantilever haze" to describe the sound of non-Decca cartridges), no rubber suspension. Their sound is extremely dynamic, explosive, immediate, alive, and robust. Yes, lots of "textural density" ;-) . It's sound in relation to other designs is like the sound of direct-to-disk LP's in relation to those pressed from tape sources.

However, Deccas and Londons are not for everyone. Their design presents a serious challenge to the tonearm they are mounted on. They produce a lot of mechanical energy (none of it lost in the cantilever and rubber suspension as in "normal" cartridges), and the arm had better have a very stiff & non-resonant arm tube and rattle-free bearings to deal with that energy. Of course, ALL cartridges benefit from such an arm, just not to the same degree.

Dear @justmetoo : I try to figure out what you are hearing in your system. I know very well your electronics and analog rig but the Burmester quality level performance is totally unknow for me.

I can see that you don't use a TT clamp, that you have behind the rigth speaker " something " that looks as a " speaker ", at your seat position I don't know at what level are your ears against the midrange/tweeter drivers, I can see a reflecting glass table just in front of " you ", etc, etc.

Perhaps the best way that any of us can help you could be that you choose 3-4 tracks of 3-4 LPs/CDs and tell us what is the kind/characterisitcs of the sound you are listening then maybe some one of us couild own a LP/CD of the ones you named and we can make comparisons of your description against what we listen in our system.

R.

Dear @justmetoo : "  What I do not agree with is, that this sound presentation is closer to near field LIFE listening. "

My mistake because no media can really puts us nearer to live MUSIC event.

What I was thinking in that post  is that " puts me nearer to the recording " where normally the recording microphones are " seated " at near field position.

You posted: " deeply detailed.. "   well MUSIC at near field position as where recording microphones are " seated " is exactly that: deeply detailed and I can add with brigthness, agresiveness and even sometimes harsh.
 Between the MUSIC source and microphones is nothing but air.

Transients defines the timbre/tone/color of the MUSIC, its natural color and for whatever reasons the MM tone is the one that moves you the more. 
It's not about room/system or kind of MUSIC or the media you are listening but the overall tone/color what moves you the more.

It's something deep personal/subjective. The " color " of CD/LOMC quality performance is not what moves you.

I don't know what kind of explanations you was waiting to read when posted this thread.

Again, sorry but I can't help to give you the rigth answer to the OP. At least not to satisfy you.

R.

Dear @jasonbourne52 :  Yes the MA are really good I still own 2-3 of them like the 630.

Now, Nagatron designed a ribbon very special cartridge that was the 9100 model, I never had the opportunity to own it and there is an Agoner that owns it and posted about years ago.

Yes, @dover  is rigth when talked about speed/coherence that MM can't achieve at the same levels than good LOMC designs.

I mentioned the IM/MI ADC 26/27 that along the AKG P100LE and Astatic MF2500 ( no one is MM. ) are " there ".

R.

Thanks for all the various feedback(s).

Haemorrhoids from listening to MM cartridge(s), eh?!? 🤔

Well, listening to my CD playback right now, I could get mixed up, sound wise, with listening to my Cadenza Black. 
Meaning also, if you fancy CD per se, a good LOMC will take your fancy. OK ✔️

What I do not agree with is, that this sound presentation is closer to near field LIFE listening. Not ever in my life music listening would that have applied. Exept, when e.g. a modern ballet, by say Stravinsky's music, was played during the life ballet performance ON A SOUND SYSTEM! 

Life music, even in the best theatre/concert hall(s) is 'blessed' by it very own form of 'distortion' actually the flavour of the very hall's specific acoustics.
This is my experience, and to a very much greater degree when we listen to Rock music life, with all the amplified instruments!

Long story short, it is my experience that CD/LOMC is more cerebral, deeply detailed, and MM/MI etc. is more emotional, life like, which is more likely to give be Goosebumps. 

Why the MM (mostly) technology can get that right is still open to my full understanding. 

If I play music on my LG (digital decoder fed) OLED TV, it fine like 'elevator music' but never ever would it give me some emotional prickle. 

Maybe not the best comparison, but it is definately closer to CD playback and hardly close to anything like more beautiful life music 'distortion' 🙏
Michélle 🇿🇦 

What is it in MM that can give me goose-bumps

I cant answer that, MM's give me haemorrhoids, which is not something I like to scratch.

LOMC's are the only cartridges which give me goosebumps, with one exception - the Moving Iron London Decca Gold ( modded by Garrots ) or London Decca Reference. I also enjoy the Soundsmith Paua MI, beautifully balanced and effortless on classical music, but not quite goosebumpy.

Speed and coherence are important to me and MM's cant do the business here.

And how about the electret cartridges made by MicroAcoustics about 40 years ago? I had the 2002E in use for awhile. Sounded pretty good!

+1 Raul! Faster transient speed of MC cartridges let them more closely approximate the live musical event! I suspect that strain gauge and the new optical pickup from Japan can do the same! 

If better MMs are more than good enough for those sound engineers, they are for me too. Save your dollars for tape and tape deck, get serious. 

Dear @justmetoo : Your inquire  is interesting and my take is that both kind of cartridges can give us goose-bumps but in different way in different " gradation ".

MUSIC per sé has as main characteristic that moves human been feelings/emotions. If we listen MUSIC through a Walkman, home system or in a live event: things happens.

I owned and still own " hundreds " of MM/MI/LOMC cartridges and through my first hand experiences in my system and other friend's systems I learned something about what you posted and that makes the differences :


""  it has more to do with timbre and TIMING... , than higher/better resolution.  ""


Our MUSIC perception is a complex issue but my take is that what defines in first place what we are listening belongs mainly to the " "speed transient response "/attack of the media we are using/listening.

Transient response is responsable of the immediacy/impact feeling of the MUSIC and its harmonics.

The transient attacks in LOMC cartridges and CD are faster with a faster decay time than what we can perceive in almost all MM cartridges.
That transient attack we can easy aware through the bass range where exist a real difference between LOMC/CD and MM cartridges and only the very best MI/IM ones as the ADC 26/27 performs as the LOMC/CD media.

Transients are the ones that modulates all the frequency range affecting timbre/timing and the bass transients/attack are the ones that modulates the more or at least is more easy to be aware of it and to be aware if the system  has good bass range response.

: I started in audio owning MM/MI cartridges coming from AT, B&O, Empire and AKG and were several years latter of those early years that an audio distributor introduced me to LOMC experience through the 103 followed by almost all Denon models to the 305 and from there and for many years I just listened in exclusive way LOMC cartridges from Dynavector, Ortofon, Fulton, FR, AT, Supex, Highphonic and the like.

So for years my ears were accustom to LOMC cartridges. Suddenly I remember that I had MM/MI cartridges that for all those years were seated in the closset and I mounted one of them and I like it what I was hearing ( move my emotions. ) and then I just followed with and buying " hundreds " of MM/MI cartridges and decided to share my experiences with through the MM thread that started several years ago.
In those years I was really exited about and living the same kind of experiences you are talking about and in those times I was thinking that MM/MI was a superior media ( more emotive. ) than LOMC cartridges with lower distortion levels but J.Carr posted in that thread that my statement about distortions was a misunderstood due that in reality is the other way around: MM has higher distortion levels no matters what.
Well even that I was in love with those higher distortions: moves me more than CD or LOMC cartridges.

Sudenly ( after some years. )  I switch to LOMC again and found out that the sound puts me nearer to the live MUSIC. Gives me a different perspective.

During all those years I always ( as today but the pandemic. ) attended each week to listen live MUSIC and I had the opportunity to listened in several ocassions seated at true near field position.

My room/system is fine tunned in that way and my tests/evaluations are doing seated at near field.

Is clear for what I said at the begining that I love MUSIC and all those 3 medias moves me. I enjoy it.

Returning to the bass range  the MM is a little in the " fat " side compared against LOMC or CD and with little higher overhang and not to fast transient attacks.

There are other issues about. Normally MM cartridge has flat frequency response 20hz-20khz ( and beyond it. ) when LOMC cartridges has a peak at high frequencies, so here exist another kind of frequency/harmonics modulators because we have to take in count that the inverse RIAA eq. comes with around -20db at high frequencies and beyond it: exist a lost in the high frequencies that some way or the other is " compensated " in the LOMC cartridges for the developed high frequency peaks.

Even Ortofon after several tests with different Ortofon cartridge models and from other manufacturers through its Golden Ear testers ( blind testers that's a group of different kind of MUSIC listeners experience. ) arrived to the conclusión that +2db-3db at over 20khz peak was the way to go because that Golden Ears pannel was what they liked the more.

You own very good audio system however MM characteristics is what goes with you. For what you posted I could assume that when you attend to a live event you seat not at near field position, I really don't know.

Here I think that the issue is not exactly about quality level of one media or the other but how each media handle ( transducer. ) the recording information in the LP grooves and how we perceive the reproduced signal.

Again, that transients attack is what makes the differences. Why LOMC/CD failed to moves you is another matters and unfortunatelly personal/subjective. Each of us are different.

I'm sorry not to help you in more specific way but the issue is not an easy one as we can think. To many parameters invloved there. 

Anyway, only an opinion that still leaves open the OP.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.



   

lohanimal said....."IMHO - I only have a Pickering Xsv4000 - but it has a certain body and grunt that my mc’s don’t have. It is very satisfying and creates a body that is very enjoyable. U may simply prefer that type of sound as ur MC cartridges are pretty damn good. My MC’s do have a certain finesse and sparkle which are also enticing."

Well said.

@lohanimal
Yes, I hear you.
I’m right now running my Empire S1000 ZE/X-ERD, .2 x .7 mil original stylus.
Sounds like you point out, also when compared to my 2 Ortfon MCs (Cadenza Black and Quintet S Black).

But my OP was really about WHAT IT WAS exactly that produces this difference...

There surely is a Physical/EEngineering explanation - and not JUST: "one moves a coil and the other a magnet". Hah! 😝

If a slab of chocolate tastes different to some other (say Cadbury vs Lindt) it has a REASON!
Not just: ha, I like this one better, no?

Michélle 🇿🇦

IMHO - I only have a Pickering Xsv4000 - but it has a certain body and grunt that my mc’s don’t have. It is very satisfying and creates a body that is very enjoyable. U may simply prefer that type of sound as ur MC cartridges are pretty damn good. My MC’s do have a certain finesse and sparkle which are also enticing.

@knollbrent 

👍 👌✔️

Michélle 🇿🇦 

@justmetoo AT ML 170 and AT ML 180 OCC have been known to make people go insane upon hearing. Not me, I was already there. My modest collection of vintage NOS MM carts from Pioneer, Argent, Sony, AT, Victor, Stanton, FR  and Grace transport me to the rings of Saturn each time I drop the needle. MM or MC, doesn't matter regarding best sound. Both will give you time travel if you purchase correctly. 

@justmetoo
I’ve played with the exact aspects you speak of and it is tied directly to the chakster illustrated points.

and I’ve fixed them.

At which point a good MC done this way starts to sound more like a high quality MM, with the majority of all the remaining MC faults in situ, obviously. Then I went to work on those....(and that remains an unfinished project out of dozens of similar ones)

Point is, that the MC faults are what people are living off of re falsified detail that they cannot mentally parse out.

to parse out the point or fact that all sequenced conversions of prior signal, in the mechanical to electrical conversion sense...are going to have dynamic and living faults and specifically losses.

losses or alterations in correctness that will do exactly as chakster implies. To put it country simple, the MC is noise shaping, and the MM does less of this, but still does it.

The trick is to remove as much of the components that mask this, as is possible. In either the MC or the MM.

In the MC world, one way to lessen the one poorly realized issue, is to use Alnico magnets. Their hysteresis is minimal compared to most.

This will be heard as a clarity to some and a loss of detail to others.

Depends, literally, on how the person listens.

Sadly, the norm of hearing and learning to hear in the audio world, can generally encompass the wrong direction, due to how much noise is inherent in the given systems as a sum total chain. Thus punching specific distortions (realized or unrealized) above this complex noise floor can be and generally is -- mistaken as detail.

the Teo audio cables and the cartridges and the unpublished circuit refinements, unpublished teo loudspeakers, etc are all designed around fixing these problems.

What we end up with is a startlingly noise free and warmly detailed system with insane transients and huge gobs of harmonic delineation, just like live signals have.

The Teo Audio MM carts are designed in such an environment, one where the window (for the designers) is exceedingly clear so these problems can be tackled and be resolved. And thus removed correctly.

What we end up with is world class MM with the least amount of self noise that you can find in a MM cart and probably most MC carts, for a huge dynamic range and richness of signal retrieval unfettered by self noise and additive/cumulative distortions. Where groove distortions become uncannily resolvable.

The window of the motor proper is brutally clean, Where the mechanicals left at fault in the moving components are the last part of the puzzle. When the stylus is upgraded from the basic bonded versions with thick-walled heavy cantilevers (03x0.7 elliptical) ..to the nude and light versions with a better suspension (Microline or shibata), the differences, the gains.. become shocking and unexpectedly potent.

As.. the key thing is, most people realize nude mounted styli, on superior cantilevers, they show their advantage in a notable way..well... with the Teo MM carts, there are no other conflations that obscure their effectiveness. The perceived differences, the gains, become notably greater.

Getting people to understand that is going to be a frightfully long process, it seems. Unless people take us up on our 30 day free trial for our basic phono carts. and then upgrade the stylus at their own leisure and self selected costing and pricing.

A scenario where they are in the drivers seat, not the cartridge producer (MC re-tipping, special styluses that are limited in availability and source points, etc). Even there, we’re giving them what they want.

The trick is getting enough people to understand this simple seeming MM in a crowded world of competing pricing, truly does stand head and shoulders above the rest. and I do mean the rest. Hence the 30 day free trial. For a cartridge. That is the gauntlet which has been thrown down.

Come on people, figure it out.....The only known cartridge with a 30 day trial (on the basic versions). A trial period that has to exist for a REASON. It’s not a game.

It’s a gauntlet thrown down, a stake in the ground, a proclamation nailed to the wall.

A combination that everyone begs for, which is the highest quality available at the lowest price possible with the highest level of the buyer being in the drivers seat.

You all wanted this... so please realize that someone did their best to bring it into existence. As, if enough people don’t give it this essentially free shot, then what might be the best MM’s that people might ever hear, will die on the vine... and never get the chance to grow into a real force to be reckoned with.

@chakster 
Thank you dear man, always find your posts of greater interest, even if by some sensibilities - also my own - you can come across a bit 'strong' flavoured at times, eh? 

And many thanks also for sharing this TAS article!

As for me, now never mind the underlying technicalities (I'm still nosy...) , it explains my ongoing preference for MMs in particular. Even though I have tried *so very many times* to 'love' MC's sound presentations - to no avail as yet. 

I'll bear in mind your cartridge suggestions (alas, SA is a *notoriously bad* country for ordering and RECEIVING goods these days!).

Once my currently owned MMs give up the ghost 👻, who knows? 

You're a ⛲ of experience and derived knowledge. 
Michélle 🇿🇦 

Though if I left the impression of needing any more than the 6 MM/I cartridges I already own, this was not intended. Sorry.

@justmetoo

It’s OK, after my first high-end LOMC I was pretty sure that it is the last cartridge, but then I bought 60 more somehow over the years, because of the curiosity.

According to Russian psychology (at least) as I now learned, goose-bumps an be caused by most anything, even a good motion? 😝
Never mind an experience of well presented analogue music.

Some people even crying when the music is good, they don’t need a cartridge for that, emotional contact with the music can be settled even if you’re playing a song from iPhone.

Playing music from vinyl records for the people for over 20 years I’ve seen a lot, been traveling worldwide with my records. For majority of people Music is the key, not a cartridge, not even a sound system!

Neither the best resolution CD or MC will give me goose-bumps.
Changing to e.g. my AT 440ML will do, will emotionaly move me, has emotional *impact* with every note played. CD and even MC seems to resonate with my intellect, my MMs with my emotions.
It seems somehow contradictory, but so it is.
Anyone else has these experiences?

Audiophiles are strange.

Sitting alone in front of the speakers we have to hear what was recorded mixed and mastered by professionals in the studio. In other words we have to hear the truth. If it was analog master then it must be Reel to Reel or Vinyl, and this is where digital doesn’t work.

This is what you have to read to understand why an MM (you’re not alone with your impression):

* Interesting point of view from TAS magazine (back issue) article called "Assessing the State-of-the-Art in Storage Media" (Issue 40). In this, J. T. Henderson reports on a listening session comparing digital master tape, analogue master tape, direct-to-disc lacquer and the "live" mike feed; the report consists of a long conversation among J. Boyk, Keith Johnson, Doug Sax, and JTH himself.

Those people were top sound engineers if you don’t know:

"On the one hand, we have assurances of the leaders of the High End recording industry that the best Moving Magnets are very close to the Master Tape and that they are capable of "uncanny" resolution. On the other hand, we have the prevailing perception, amounting almost to a shibboleth, of the High End listening community, that only Moving Coils are realistic in some sense of that word and that Moving Magnets are incapable of sonic truth. While it is clearly beyond the scope of a single review to resolve this conflict entirely, a couple of points come to mind. In direct comparison of two "sounds", tonal balance differences show up very conspicuously. Good Moving Magnets can be very nearly neutral tonally, as well as being low in the kinds of distortion that are audibly significant. Moving Coils are low in distortion, too, but typically they are quite far from neutral tonally, with a "presence range" suck-out followed by a high frequency rise."

Their choice of monitoring cartridge during the disk mastering process was Stanton 881s mkII, Audio-Technica AT-ML170 and Technics P100c mk4. All cartridges are Moving Magnet type.

BUT not every MM cartridge of today can give you what Stanton, Audio-Technica, Technics ... top models can do!

P.S. I can imagine how many great TAS articles about classic MM or MC cartridges I have missed, they are not available online sadly.