What is it in MM that can give me goose-bumps? 🤔

Stanton CS-100 WOS and Pickering XSV-5000 can do that. Both are oustanding MM, very rich and sweet sound. 

Debate about MM vs. MC is pointless, just like those Digital vs Analog pointless threads on audiogon. 

When you asking an MC aficionado about MM cartridges it's like asking Digital aficionado about Analog (waste of time).

It's better to have an MM and MC and compare in your own system. 
I have both types of cartridges, also some exotic ones (cantilever-less design from Ikeda, Direct Couple design from Victor ... ). 

Moving Magnet or Moving Iron cartridge can be as good or better than some of the best MC, it depends on a cartridge, not on a type of cartridge. What is important in this search is to ignore mainstream, and then it will help to find something very special that people are not talking about on mainstream hi-end media. Here is an example of two MM and one MC, even the cheapest of those 3 is absolutely amazing and it's an MM design from Pioneer for their Exclusive series.   

I like LOMC cartridges from my collection, but I also enjoy an MM and MI and practically they are definitely better, replacement stylus is a huge benefit, look at this original Grace Ruby LEVEL II The sound of the best MM is addictive. 

Inexpensive SONY MM comes with exotic and very expensive cantilever.

I'm just trying to say there are so many amazing MM cartridges (and MC too) out the numbers of mainstream models offering today. 

If we don't know the classics how can we judge new products?  
The roots of high-fidelity in analog is somewhere in the 70's and it was a Moving Magnet era, high compliance carts and lightweight tonearms. With the right cart on the right tonearm you will be blown away by the quality of MM for sure (even if you like an MC like myself).   

 

But as I mentioned 'goose-bumps' (goose-flesh in American English?) which is instantaneous, non-intellectual, having nothing to do with that deeper 'relating to the intellect' but more with some simple primordial (basic and fundamental) reaction!

This reaction can be caused by everything, often it's music itself (no matter what quality). If you can feel it only with MM cartridges as you said earlier then it's just you and not necessary anybody else on this forum. But if you're interested in MM cartridges (high quality performers) I recalled some of them. You can't go wrong with top Stanton and Pickering, those are emotionally rich cartridges with very sweet tone. 

If you like MM so much then continue with better MM or MI and you will find what you're looking for (in terms of sound). 

@mijostyn I posted so many times about my current mode (current injection) phono stage (called 47 Labs Phono Cube) I like a lot with my MC cartridges.
I also posted how exactly I came to the best vintage MM after using modern expensive LOMC in $2-5k range. 
The only modern LOMC I have today is Miyajima Kansui, my Ikeda 9 III is a bit older, but my favorite LOMC are much older (FR-7fz, Miyabi Standard and Miyabi MCA ... ). All LOMC works perfectly with Gold Note PH-10 phono stage. 
One cartridge I use a lot these days is Fidelity-Research FR-7fz on FR-64s tonearm with B-60 vta base on my Luxman PD-444.


Current mode phono stage from 47 Labs is great!

Though if I left the impression of needing any more than the 6 MM/I cartridges I already own, this was not intended. Sorry.

@justmetoo

It’s OK, after my first high-end LOMC I was pretty sure that it is the last cartridge, but then I bought 60 more somehow over the years, because of the curiosity.

According to Russian psychology (at least) as I now learned, goose-bumps an be caused by most anything, even a good motion? 😝
Never mind an experience of well presented analogue music.

Some people even crying when the music is good, they don’t need a cartridge for that, emotional contact with the music can be settled even if you’re playing a song from iPhone.

Playing music from vinyl records for the people for over 20 years I’ve seen a lot, been traveling worldwide with my records. For majority of people Music is the key, not a cartridge, not even a sound system!

Neither the best resolution CD or MC will give me goose-bumps.
Changing to e.g. my AT 440ML will do, will emotionaly move me, has emotional *impact* with every note played. CD and even MC seems to resonate with my intellect, my MMs with my emotions.
It seems somehow contradictory, but so it is.
Anyone else has these experiences?

Audiophiles are strange.

Sitting alone in front of the speakers we have to hear what was recorded mixed and mastered by professionals in the studio. In other words we have to hear the truth. If it was analog master then it must be Reel to Reel or Vinyl, and this is where digital doesn’t work.

This is what you have to read to understand why an MM (you’re not alone with your impression):

* Interesting point of view from TAS magazine (back issue) article called "Assessing the State-of-the-Art in Storage Media" (Issue 40). In this, J. T. Henderson reports on a listening session comparing digital master tape, analogue master tape, direct-to-disc lacquer and the "live" mike feed; the report consists of a long conversation among J. Boyk, Keith Johnson, Doug Sax, and JTH himself.

Those people were top sound engineers if you don’t know:

"On the one hand, we have assurances of the leaders of the High End recording industry that the best Moving Magnets are very close to the Master Tape and that they are capable of "uncanny" resolution. On the other hand, we have the prevailing perception, amounting almost to a shibboleth, of the High End listening community, that only Moving Coils are realistic in some sense of that word and that Moving Magnets are incapable of sonic truth. While it is clearly beyond the scope of a single review to resolve this conflict entirely, a couple of points come to mind. In direct comparison of two "sounds", tonal balance differences show up very conspicuously. Good Moving Magnets can be very nearly neutral tonally, as well as being low in the kinds of distortion that are audibly significant. Moving Coils are low in distortion, too, but typically they are quite far from neutral tonally, with a "presence range" suck-out followed by a high frequency rise."

Their choice of monitoring cartridge during the disk mastering process was Stanton 881s mkII, Audio-Technica AT-ML170 and Technics P100c mk4. All cartridges are Moving Magnet type.

BUT not every MM cartridge of today can give you what Stanton, Audio-Technica, Technics ... top models can do!

P.S. I can imagine how many great TAS articles about classic MM or MC cartridges I have missed, they are not available online sadly. 

Cartridges with user replaceable styli are the best (practically), they are more user friendly and if we can find the one, that can sound really good, it can be the last one. It’s challenge to find one that can sound better than others including more expensive LOMC. But when you will find one, you will be happy! In this process some other snobs opinion is irrelevant, it’s a personal thing, only your own opinion is important when it comes to your own cartridges.

Currently using Pickering XSV/5000 (Stereohedron mkII stylus) Moving Magnet cartridge from the late 80’s. Two turntables connected, here is my system, two tonearms on each turntable. Some killer LOMC are here (FR-7fz, Miyabi MCA) on very nice tonearms like Lustre GST-801 and FR-64s with b60. Speakers are Tannoy System 15 mkII.

Pickering XSV/5000 (MM) cartridge is the cheapest of them all (replaced by Grado Signature XTZ), tonearm also much cheaper (Denon DA-401 for high compliance cartridges). I must tell that this XSV/5000 cartridge is amazing.

I like my expensive LOMC too, but MM is a different flavor, 4 times cheaper price than any of my LOMC, same about Denon tonearm for this cart. And I have everything for LOMC (SUTs, high gain phono stages, headamps, current injection phono stages... everything).

There is NOTHING to loose with the right MM, it’s amazing sound for 4 times lower budget, because all you need is MM phono (100k Ohm loading option is a must) and the right tonearm. I prefer high compliance MM.

What you can get for $700 with MM you can’t get even for $3k (including SUT) with MC.

And user replaceable stylus for MM is a great bonus instead of that crazy third party re-tipping service that ruin the originality of your MC. 

Ok, back on subject now.
I most resently mounted my Ortofon M20FL super, and in better days also had purched the E super insert (all NOS from Germany).

That one is the most affordable of them all and for this reason it's great cart, I owned several samples, but only FL (FineLine) diamond. 

Remember there is no "best" or "perfect" cartridge, so when someone telling use about one cartridge that better than others it's fake news. 

There are dozen of excellent vintage MM cartridges and it's worth to try all of them. 

Technics is the most problematic of them all, because here we have to deal with the worst rubber damper formula ever made, it could be a serious problem for someone who don't know. 

P.S. I just received my NOS Technics P-205 mk4, gonna try it in a few month when I'll get adapter for p-mount carts. 

@anthonya

@chakster what do you think about xsv3000 Pickering? or v15 I already have Stanton 780 and epc 205 ciiL and akg pm25 on the way...

I think phono should really sound like master tapes I listen to heaps of them what’s the recommendation for high compliance tonearm.? Victor ua 77 any good?

In 1977 the XSV/3000 was Pickering’s first cartridge with the Stereohedron diamond. It was a totally new stylus shape at that time:

"This new cartridge makes possible a wider, more open, fines sound - because it maximizes stereo tracing capabilities with the slightest, lightest touch a record ever had. It increases record life because force is spread over a greater contact area. And that means the least record wear achievable in these times (with a stereo cartridge)."

In 1979 Pickering introduced an improved version called XSV/4000 and it was in production line until 1993. The XSV/4000 is much better than earlier XSV/3000 mainly because of the lower tip mass and higher compliance, wider frequency response. Then Pickering introduced even better next model (XSV/5000) with Stereohedron mk II stylus tip, and low impedance models such as XLZ/4500 and XLZ/7500 but it’s another story.

The Stereohedron tip design is the result of long research in extended frequency response for tracing of high frequency modulations. Like its cousin, the Quadrahedral, the STEREOHEDRON stylus is shaped to provide an enlarged area of record groove contact, while providing the ability to accurately trace the high frequency, the level modulations found on today’s records, thus, the Stereohedron stylus provides superior performance which low stylus wear and low record wear for your stereo records. As far as i know, chronologically, Pickering XUV/4500Q with Quadrahedron stylus for CD-4 records was the predecessor of the Stereohedron series. The first Stereohedron series was the XSV/3000 model. Reading an old review I noticed that Stereohedron was preferable over Quadrahedron for stereo records. In other words even XSV/3000 was better than XUV/4500Q and XSV/4000 is better than XSV/3000. 

The Stereohedron has a large bearing surface which is distributed over a large portion of the modulated groove, and at the stated optimum tracking force of 1.2 grams, the actual force per unit area is, of course, much less and should significantly contribute to the longevity of recordings. A cartridge is only a link between the cold, lifeless excursion of the record groove and live, rich sound coming from the speakers. Your entire sound system will perform only as good as your cartridge does! Pickering cartridges manufactured at Pickering & Company, INC (Sunnyside Boulevard, Plainview, N.Y. 11803).

Mr. Pickering was one of the founders of the Audio Engineering Society in 1948, was George Szell’s recording consultant, researched violin acoustics and constructed more than fifty vioins and violas and was active in the Violin Society of America. He also worked on ultrasound eye imaging with the technique’s inventor. After the war ended in 1945, Pickering met Mr. Stanton - an engineer who said he could sell all of the pickups he could build. So with some friends he went into business in Oceanside, Long Island and sure enough as many as he could build were quickly sold at first only to radio stations. But by 1947 the demand from high-fidelity fanatics was strong enough for what’s now called a ‘cartridge’ and Pickering & Company was formed to meet the new hobby’s demands. Mr. Stanton invented the interchangeable needle grips Pickering used. By the 1960 Stanton purchased Pickering & Company. He later established Stanton Magnetics Inc in 1961, and soon invented his legendary Stereohedron stylus tip in the 70’s. He was the chairman and president of both Pickering & Co and Stanton Magnetics Inc, designed some amazing cartridges until 1998, then Mr.Stanton sold both companies...

Denon DA-401 is great tonearm for high compliance cartridges.

If you’re looking for Victor then check UA-7045

If you want Stanton then look for 881, 980 or 981 , make sure the stylus is genuine Stereohedron first or mk2 version.

I must admit that not every MC is bad and not every MM is good.

I prefer some top vintage MM (NOS) because of the obvious difference in performance (and cost) compared to modern MC carts.

I don’t like modern MM cartridges, most of them does not have that magic. Same about most of the modern tubes (vintage NOS always better). 

I like some vintage LOMC too, but they are definitely much more expensive than great vintage MM, and more expensive than some modern MC too.

@anthonyaI have all of them (high output XSV/5000, low output XLZ/4500, XLZ/7500), fully original with Stereohedron styli, using Jico or any other fake styli on Stanton/Picekring makes no sense. Genuine Pickering/Stanton top models goes up in price in time and the reason is outstanding sound quality.

My favorite Stanton is CS-100 WOS with Stereohedron mkII 

@chakster

good to know.

Any carts that worth its time using jico?

Hico made some many cheap styli just to let people buy something for their old cheap cartridges. JICO SAS is extremely expensive profile and not available for all cartridges. I think it’s better to invest in original design and to fidn a genuine stylus if the price difference between original and JIC SAS is not big. As far as I know SAS is not available for Stanton/Pickering. Look for original Stereohedron. BTW the price you have mentioned from someone else for XSV/5000 is a fair price in my opinion. If the XSV/3000 is something like $350 then each next upper model is +$200 at least (and there are XLZ4500, XSV/5000, XLZ/7500).