What is going on? No-one buys good stuff priced right.
There are Lamm hybrid monos, Rowland 8T, YBA Passion Integre and Lavardin integrateds, Dynaudio Contour and Confidence speakers,and that's only what I took a look at. Too many choices, too much hesitation, no funds, not in the mood, summer time ?
There have been several interesting answers above and I'd like to offer some more.....
We are living in a time when even relatively "inexpensive" gear has gotten really good sounding. If you've been in this hobby for any length of time, you start to realize that the more expensive the gear is, doesn't always mean better sounding. Having gone to several shows like AXPONA, it becomes clear that most of the uber expensive rooms sound ok....not great. I started making it a game to seek out the lesser known companies to hear their gear and compare them to the better known names. In almost every case, the smaller companies produced gear that sounded as good or better than the others. Many of them were also made in the US which is a big plus for me. The customer service tends to be stellar with these manufacturers.
I also believe there is a move toward simplification with gear. I'm over 50 and I'm getting tired of lifting amps and preamps that weigh over 75 lbs or 45 lbs respectively. After 2 back surgeries, I'm not willing to take the chance anymore.
I've decided to move to speakers that are higher efficiency and integrateds that don't weight 65 lbs, but sound really good. An example would be to compare one of the choices the OP gave: Lavardin. I've owned the IT and it sounds good, but I recently heard about a small company from the UK by the name of Sonneteer and decided to give them a try at a fraction of the price. In my system, the Sonneteer Alabaster is a much more musical and enjoyable integrated amp. It retails for $2400 and the Lavardin IT retails for $9500 (I believe). A no brainer.
I also hear from other audio friends that they are nervous about the economy and with the prices of used gear falling like a rock, they are holding on to what they have. I think the word used above by audiotomb was content.
I've also noticed that more and more of my friends would rather spend some extra money going to local concerts now rather than keep chasing the unobtainable.
Just my 2 cents.
I couldn't agree more! I've attended many shows in Canada/US and over seas and have sat in front of systems worth many times the price of my home, yes they sounded great, looked great and I enjoyed talking to the designers/owners of the company. But, I'll always come back to brands I've heard and trusted for years, Sonneteer being one of them. The Alabaster is one that I've owned/sold for 12 years and it continues to put a smile on my face every time I hear it and that for me is the most important factor in deciding to put your money down on a piece of gear.
If I had the $20k to blow on a tonearm without suffering my lot in life I probably could justify the expenditure without aforethought.
Just because something is out of my reach financially does not make those who can afford it dupes - it's simply a matter of perceived value to the buyer. Excesses of the wealthy are hardly new to anyone here or elsewhere. Most of my friends and colleagues find my stuff "expensive" when by comparison with other members my stuff is relatively inexpensive. C'est la vie.
There is no "problem" with 2 channel listening other than it requires dedication. 99% of the people I know do not have two channel equipment. Personally speaking my TV is in the den, my 2 channel gear in the living room. I do not have surround sound for the TV, I find surround to be intolerable. Most of my acquaintances are just fine with their HT setups
The good stuff isn't moving as quickly because the audience for it is much smaller than it's ever been. I'm tired of parties where people Bluetooth their music over some big box store wireless speakers and find it acceptable. Ugh.
I'm doing my best to sustain the purchases of good stuff but my finances ebb and flow!
I only include the paypal fee if the buyer insist on the process going through with paypal.
I typically would accept cash or a bank certified check or a personal check for a purchase and would ship the item only when my bank tells me the check actually cleared.
I understand the buyer is slightly at risk in that transaction, but I prefer this as opposed to me shipping the item and the check failed to clear.
So, if they insist on using paypal, which to me is a pain to use, I tell the customer that they will be responsible for the paypal fees.
I could tack the paypal fee on the sale price initially, but that doesn't make sense to me, because once you list a price, that is the price. If the customer wants to pick the item up and pay cash (for example), why am I penalizing that person by tacking on the paypal fee?
Please pretend you never read my previous post. (most of you won't have to pretend)
I, too am outraged and saddened that no one is buying this perfectly wonderful gear. It is age discrimination, just as plain as the nose on my face, and it sickens me!
I propose to start a charitable fund to find a good home for each piece of worthy gear. Let us band together and open our wallets until every Dias is in a den and every Lamm has a living room.!
Just send your donations to me at **CENSORED by AG**
I am happy to do my part for Volunteers for the Benefit of Acoustic Perfection. V-BAP. (Isn't that something Ella sang?)
I will keep a judicious inventory of all pieces liberated from Agon. But adoptive parent(s) must remain anonymous.
Inna, 20K for a tone arm; when are you going to invite me to your chateau. I just got back with the material to construct a table for my TT, and I'm going to re-record all my LP's after I receive and install the new cartridge. After that, all I'm going to do is;
Orpheus10, you are right about while we still can. Climate change will finish all this off soon enough, rich and not rich will have the same fun. $20k for a great tonearm sounds reasonable to me. How about $50k for Hermes handbag or $3k for a bottle of wine?
The rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer, while those in the middle are slowly being sucked into that vortex called poverty. In order to verify this, all you have to do is search "Poverty", or homelessness.
Recently there was a lively conversation about 20K tone arms. Can you imagine the wealth surrounding someone who would spend 20K for a tone arm? When I was in real estate I came into contact with wealthy people, and none of them would spend 20K for a tone arm; that's because they were all quite frugal. While I don't know if any of them were audiophiles, because the conversation never wandered off of business, I know that none of them were frivolous. My point is that 20K for a tone arm is not something they would do, unless recently they had come into so much money they could afford to be frivolous.
Now the "Upper middle class" is feeling pinched; that's because no longer can they buy very expensive gear without giving it much consideration. This group of audiophiles has been so focused on "Audiophilia" that they have not been to concerned with realities that are just beginning to affect them. Let me clue you in on some of them.
It takes "generations" to construct a "ghetto"; a generation is 70 years. 70 years ago St. Louis was a great city, and so was Detroit. In the last 20 years those cities have declined like nobody would believe; the only things that have increased are the sizes of the ghettos, and this goes for every major city in the United States of America.
In 66 I was in Detroit, and it seemed that everyone drove a new car, and lived in a swell home with a "rathskeller", and they dressed well; that also went for Pontiac and Flint, Michegan. What does all that have to do with you? I can't answer that question, you will have to answer it for yourself.
Since 2006 the wealth of this entire country has shifted "big time" from the middle class to the very rich, and the pace of that shift is only increasing.
When you put frogs in a kettle of water, and raise the temperature slowly, they will be boiled before they know it's too hot. The prices of all our necessities are constantly increasing, and it's not due to natural circumstances; the rich who rule all the politicians, Democrat and Republican, are making sure the prices of all necessities are increasing.
tubegb... Bravo! I find it annoying that most of the equipment for sale here tacks on the PayPal fee in addition. While I know that we're not retailers or business owners (for the most part), imagine using your credit card in a store and having the cashier say, "oh, a card? We have to charge you another 3-4 percent."
I've made offers here pretty much doing as you've done yourself, here's my offer all inclusive. Most have refused, politely and nicely. This is, IMHO, a "gentleman's" community in which respect and understanding go both ways.
As others alluded, the issue may be price.....items are priced at unrealistic levels. To that I would add size of audience. There are other sales venues with larger audiences. Several times in the past, I have listed identicle items at identicle prices on Agon, Audiomart, Audio Asylum and Ebay. All items sold via Ebay, at my listing price (BIN). Agon listings generated a lot of questions, several very low offers, and -0- consumated sales. Very few inquiries etc from Audiomart, or Audio Asylum. Items were mid 3 figure cables, vintage tube amps, and premium tubes.
in monitoring Agon forums, I note that participants here seem to exhibit considerably more anxiety about equipment, buying, selling, tweeking etc.. People should relax. This is a hobby. Stop treating it like a pool of sharks trying to steal food from each other.
Why die HIGH END? We have to sanction the ruble to the dollar was 22/1. I'm going to buy STEALTH SAKRA interconnect 1 meter - $ 12,000 for 264.000 rubles. In terms of sanctions, I could not buy, because now SAKRA cable is three times more expensive -768.000₽. This is for you to buy for $ 36,000 per 1 SAKRA, unreal. https://youtu.be/6MVFU_NKwaEhttps://youtu.be/0SgytF9djBUhttps://youtu.be/J1UlN4eHIUE -. The BEST SOUND
Like many on this forum, I am approaching 60, and have been chasing the elusive perfect system for quite some time, limited by finances and the vicissitudes of real life, raising a family etc. We were discussing cars the other day-how that our parents often traded in theirs before the inevitable decline became apparent, often before 100k miles. Now, it’s not unheard of for people to still be driving vehicles from the early oughts, with several hundred thousand miles on them. Why? Perhaps coincident or not, once sticker prices got so high that leasing became a real option, quality seemed to rise almost exponentially, and those high prices also made buying new less of an option for many, so they held onto what they had, paying for the odd repair rather than having a regular loan payment.
I suggest, for different reasons, that the same thing has happened in our audiophilic universe-I recently replaced a pair of Spica TC-50s that have served me well for over 30 years with a pair of Magneplanar MG 1.5 QR’s that I purchased from the original owner. The quality of both sets of speakers, while scarcely new, is still apparent and I chose not to spend time researching every possible option. What was built and designed well has held up and still has value-and the cost of a fair amount of new equipment is stratospheric. But, people’s needs change, making some equipment, no matter how much of a bargain, unfeasible. Some of that is the result of people integrating what at one time was their main stereo system into their television’s audio system. Do you need a pair of monoblocks to reproduce a movie’s sound? For most, the answer is no. In other cases, downsizing one’s household leads to living back in a condominium or other facility that precludes a large system’s use in favor of headphone or bookshelf speakers.
Like the cars, the quality of many of the products used in our hobby has risen above what we would have found back in the 1970s. I still use my 30 year old Hafler DH-220 regularly - and it is perhaps the best $300 or so I ever spent in terms of value for cost when I consider the hundreds of hours it has served me. If and when it dies, I will explore the Brystons and other options available and will likely purchase used rather than new-again seeking brands I know and trust. In conclusion, there’s a surplus of good equipment available at very reasonable prices but for some of us, there are no pressing demands to buy right now.
@tubegb I agree with your post. If I'm interested in an item I make an offer worded as such, "my offer is $$$ including shipping and fees." I leave it up to the seller to accept, counter offer or ignore.
This is a humble suggestion to sellers from a long time
member who has sold many items on Audiogon over the years. Stop charging buyers
for what are fees intended to be absorbed by the seller. PayPal fees were never
intended to be paid by the buyer. Credit card fees were never intended to be by
paid by the buyer. They are both a cost of doing business as the seller. If you
feel compelled to recoup these fees simply raise you asking price to the next
natural price point, for example: $550 to $575. I can only speak for myself but
when I view an ad where the seller is trying to place seller fees on the buyer,
I simply move on.
Well some other sites are not much better - I have gear fairly priced (I did a lot of research etc.) posted for 2 years...
As far as old school gear vs newer or SS vs tubes - we all have our preferences. I have a nice mix of fully recapped old school SS gear such as Sansui BA/CA 3000 with the 9900TU and 929 TT - nice but far from say my entry level Shindo gear or even the Almarro 318b which I got for a very reasonable price. I also have Pioneer Series20, Marantz Esotec, Kenwood Supreme700 and Yamaha 2000 Centennial Series with matching NS1000 speakers...Love them all.
However, one of the best sounding set was a mish-mash of Dodd battery powered preamp, Pass Labs Aleph Ono phono amp, Quicksilver Silver 70 mono-blocks with Kuzma Stabi/Stogi TT, SONY SACD ES777 and a McIntosh MR71. All from AG all for pretty decent/very fair price. It took me some time to assemble but it was worth the work/time. I also met nice folks either in person or at least through email.
I've noticed that the audio market has slowed down where Im at as well. I've been trying to sell a pair of speakers for 8 months. I've only received 1 lowball offer. The speakers are priced well. 2 years old, light use at moderate levels, perfect condition, boxes etc. Msrp was $1800. I was asking $625. Got an offer at $550. Raised the price to $725 :)
Theres a company local to me that has started buying up the gear on craigslist in order to resell it at a higher price on their website. I've seen gear sitting there for awhile as well (serves them right!).
I usually shift my focus to cars, motorcycles, and road trips in the summer. As soon as snow starts blowing, I buy stereo gear again!
2channel8 has it right on the money, pun intended. I have slowed my buying to a crawl because the price of used gear is absurd. The prices reflect a depreciation that is just not realistic. I recently looked into a pair of speakers that were 16 years old and the owner was asking 70% of original price. I walked away.
I've been using Agon for 15 years now (holy crap) and have gone thru so much equipment it makes me wonder. After retiring a few months ago, the time of needing newer, better, or just more equipment is over for me. It's been a nice ride though, and I have not just heard, but owned some extremely nice gear.
For some reason the thrill of owning and listening to the really nice stuff always seems to fade for me. I start thinking, "I paid $5k for this amp and is it making my listening any more satisfying?" My answer has always been "no, not really." The expensive stuff get's sold, and lately not through Audiogon.
What has been satisfying is finding pieces which offer equal (to my ear) sonic pleasure at a fraction of the price. Building Bottlehead kits comes immediately to mind. Or my latest project, finding a non-working Hafler amp and bringing new life to it with modifications.
As I said, my stuff doesn't get sold through Agon anymore; they lost me during the big shake up a few years ago. Seemed like every time I went to list an item here the fee structure was different and there were other alternatives which worked just as well for me. When I joined this site, placing ads cost $2 it might've been $1 but my memory is fuzzy. It was a wonderful site for hobbyists. As with everything in life though, it changed.
Maybe the prices are not so right. Example: There is a Sony CS/SACD player listed for $1,100. (or make an offer, to be fair.) This is the only option even remotely within my means. The others in my search here range from $2,200 to $35,500! The list price of the Sony is given as $3,500 in about 1999. Actually, the list was dropped by Sony to $2,500 in 2001. So I would have to believe that the Sony depreciated only 56% over 18 years. I do not believe that and I don't think it is worth risking anywhere near that money on such an old unit. It was a fine player, and the price is in-line with those listed elsewhere; but not for me!
Does anyone want to buy my 2005 Subaru Outback wagon for $29,000? It only has 154,000 miles and the tires are outstanding.
Can audio return to greatness? Question is can artistry return to being artistry and not you know what ? Theoretically yes. Economic conditions are good enough for many and not too bad for most, this is not a cause but an excuse. People spend ridiculous dollars on bullsh-t and eat three times more food than they need. Alright, I'll be more gentle - two times more. Not to mention drinking like pigs, oops I mean drinking too much.
I am 58 years old. I lived thru the great era of audio. 15 years ago my medium sized town had 2 dedicated hifi stores. Today they are long gone and the Best Buy doesn’t even have a listening room. IMO this is due to several forces. 8 years of horrible economic conditions is the start. But, there are other forces at play as well. In the home, everyone is focused on video today, not music. Music is for "on the go". Everyone has a phone in their pocket with 100’s of hours of music on them. Headphones can be had for $10-$20. People don’t get together and do things as a group anymore. And for those of us who love audio, there are the value systems. I have a pair of Klipsch Herasy’s being driven by an OLD Jolida 202 (with new tubes), using an iPod thru a dragonfly as the source. Total cost to replicate in the used market, about $2200. Everyone who enters my office is blown away at the sound. 40 years ago to copy that sound I may have had the Klipsch speakers but the rest of the system would have been McIntosh or something designed by Bob Carver. And the source material would have been big boxes of vinyl.
And then there is the source music. My children have my grand children growing up listening to the sounds of the 1960’s, 70’s, and 80’s. Those of us who grew up listening to these artists are watching them quit playing due to health reasons or death. We need some new artists that have mass appeal. The music of this era to a great extent was happy music. The music made you smile. We didn't have artists singing about raping people and killing police.
Can an audio return to greatness? Sure. But it has to start with better economic conditions and people becoming less polarized. When people begin doing things together, good music, coming out of loudspeakers will return. Then, the days of the hifi will return.
Look who is talking with two posts history. North Koreans are said to be good at it too. It is hardly free to sell on ebay. Many dealers and individuals put the same items both on ebay and on Audiogon at the same time, usually at higher price on ebay to cover higher fees. There are plenty of items, though some stuff never shows up or sells quicker than I could see it.
Lets just say that it has become easier to buy with all the websites for high end today making buyers more uncertain of cost. You can add the fact maybe the buyers are an older crowd generation, the ones with money who are either passing away or just to old now to hear anything. Most of the people who buy from me are close if not in retirement. The cost of living put a hurt on everyone also where we are forced to buy our own medical insurance instead of saving for something we enjoy. Buying high end at one time was a choice now maybe it has become more of a selfish move with so many other needs.
Myself I will still buy the older gear, to me it is the best bang for your $.
This isn't going to be a popular answer but, too many FREE options to sell goods;. Craigslist and other sites ( I won't mention) are likely reducing the number of items on Audiogon. I know some high-end audio dealers who only sell on EBay. It seems the trusted feedback system would be enough to keep people buying on Audiogon, but people weigh the risk and buy/sell on Free listing sites.
There may not be a single reason for this. My experience has been that from 2009-2013 I was able to buy a lot of great gear for far less than it’s available for now. For example I found an ML 26 for $400 and that included 3 sets of CAMACS. Lots of people selling stuff to make ends meet.
I kind of over-indulged. Got enough gear during that timeframe that my "need" for more has slowed down - just a lot of toys to swap in and out. Not to say the audiophile thirst has diminished, but I personally have been able to enjoy mixing and matching gear I already have rather than acquiring a lot more.
Probably won’t last, but that’s why I’ve bought a lot less the last 3 years. That has also caused me to focus the budget on buying more music rather than gear - checking out genres that sound better on a given configuration.
When you officialy make an offer and the offer is accepted, you have to buy, you are bound by the rules. Sure, you could make certain in person that the condition is as stated. Not everyone wants strangers in their houses, me included. Cash transaction is not the best way, there are many fake dollars, some say at least 5%.
And before anyone ask me. Yes, the 23.5 is a better amp than the ML3. Even though I upgraded the ML3 with much better, more linear output transistors (this amp sounds way better now). I want to keep the ML3, because it is really nice, vintage (upgraded), is extremely well designed and built and I really like it.
I'm keeping the other 23.5.
yeah, yeah, I know. I have lots of equipment. I'm working on that.
You should see the really vintage receivers and equipment that I have and have restored. You know, the old 70s Sansui, Pioneer or Marantz receivers with wood grain panels. For what they are, with the right speakers, they look and sound great.
My daughter is now into vintage equipment. I'm finding out that many 20 something kids are into vintage equipment also. Interesting and fun.
tonykay; I hear you. If someone is close by and want to hear the unit I would only agree with that if the person made an offer. That offer can be contingent with the buyer saying that they want to make sure the item works as I advertised it. However, since I'm not a store and don't want to be one, I don't want lookie loos.
I have sold many items and made many transactions out of my home and each time the person stated on Audiogon (for example) that they were buying the item. Again, I have no problem connecting the item to my existing system and letting that person hear their own music played. They paid when they got to my home and saw/heard the unit.
If they change their mind after hearing it, I really wouldn't have a problem with that either, I guess. But, that hasn't happened to me yet.
Each time, the buyer brought their own music and we sat, talked about music and equipment, enjoyed the music and the purchase was made. Sometimes it took an hour or so and was fun.
I actually prefer to physically pick up the item for sale if I was the buyer. Because 1) I want to make sure it was in the condition the seller stated, 2) I want to hear it work and is not filled with sand, 3) I prefer to physically hand over cash instead of internet money transactions, but you can't have everything I guess.
But to your point, if a potential buyer said to me they have to hear it first before making the offer, I would kindly turn that buyer down. I don't have the time. Make the offer (one should know about the equipment they want to buy), I'll accept the offer, then if he/she says that they must make sure the item works as advertised and want to hear it, that is fine.
Also, to me, it makes no sense for a buyer that lives in driving distance to pay me over the internet. I wouldn't do that. I would come by, listen and pay.
But, the offer has to be made and accepted first.
I bought a pair of Audio Research REF 250 amps months ago from my favorite dealer and that meant that one of my two Mark Levinson 23.5 amps has to go. I already have a seriously modified Bedini 250/250 amp (really nice amp) and a Mark Levinson ML3 amp as back up amps, so I really shouldn't keep the 23.5. I sent it in to an authorized Mark Levinson Service center for service and recapping. When I advertise it for sale, I would expect some buyers to want to come buy to hear and physically pick up this monster instead of shipping. So, that definitely would not be a problem. But, as I said earlier, offer made, price accepted, then come by to hear, pay and pick up.
The experience I described in my post doesn't really fit your scenario. The price being asked seemed reasonable, and I was willing to buy. I just wanted to be sure that the piece wasn't damaged in some way as the price seemed very reasonable. The seller gave me a story about being too busy to allow anyone to demo his headphones. I think he just wanted someone to send him the money, and not ask any questions, which is fine for me. If I hit the buy button, I would have been committed to buying which I may not have wanted to do based on a demo, if the piece was damaged. Then I would have to deal with negative feedback here on Audiogon. Since he was local, I thought a demo was a reasonable request. Apparently, the seller disagreed.
Just got from estates a fully functioning flagship giant of vintage Japanese high-end Sansui AU-20000 complete with box and service manuals AND schematics!!!
WHATANAWESOMEPIECEOFGEARINDEED!
I think I've fallen in love again. It's an upgrade to most of integrated amps EVER built before.
Features: Fully adjustable MM/MC phonostages with load impedance and capacitance. fully adjustable input levels of every input individually! low noise floor and incredible dynamic control. switchable triple tone control -- got poor recordings, well, hey, no problem! adjustable VU meters scale. 200wpc of continues power over the whole operating frequency bandwidth internally switchable preamp out and poweramp in
tonykay; I don't know. I have no problem letting a person into my home to hear the item for sale after they have made an offer. That way I'm sure I'm dealing with a serious person as opposed to a lookie loo.
If they are interested in purchasing that particular item and make and offer, my sole responsibility after that (if they want to come by to hear it work) is to make sure it is working as I advertised it and the prove to the buyer that it is working.
There is lots of equipment for sale. The real issue is whether a particular person is interested in that particular piece. Sometimes it takes awhile to find the right buyer.
This is true for most equipment. Cars, watches, art, etc. The right buyer has to see the advertisement or item for sale. If they don't, then the item will sit for awhile.
It is important to not be desperate to sell something. Patience is key, along with pricing the item correctly in the first place.
I have been tempted to replace my Avalons with the latest in speaker development, but the price of an even used pair of, say Raidho, Rockport, Tidal, Vandersteen, YG Acoustics, etc., have reached into the unreachable stratosphere. Even if I was able to afford an uber-speaker, I have no assurances that I will find it's performance more satisfying. And...of course, I am left with the need to sell a more than moderately priced speaker in today's market. The days of continual upgrades may be over for me.
There is a lot of great equipment available for sale here on Audiogon (as opposed to Cr**g**st), and some of it is expensive, even very expensive, but no one is forced to buy anything. The summer, notwithstanding, there is a button called "Make Offer" that allows anyone to submit an offer lower than the asking price. I have noticed that some things have been sitting longer than previous years. Sometimes, it's the fault of the seller. One guy, recently told me he was too busy for a short demo, despite living close to me. I just think that, with 100%+ feedback, I deserved a demo. Needless to say, I won't be buying anything from that seller.
" We are being phased out ". That's a little too desperate, I would say, but yes the situation is not good. About wine analogy. Yes, you can clearly tell the difference between a so-so wine and an excellent one even if you have never tried any wine before. But any analogy has limits. Those who were 'brainwashed' with digital, and usually poor quality digital, would have hard time to appreciate fine things.
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