What is Floyd Toole saying about extra amplifier power and headroom?
Remedies for unacceptable situations typically included spending more money on a loudspeaker with a “better” woofer (without useful technical specifications, that was a lottery of another kind) and a bigger amplifier (for useless headroom ...
@mapman thanks. Learning a ton. So I ordered a MiniDSP active crossover and should have it tomorrow and I'm going to try what you suggested. It's relatively inexpensive so I figured why not? The software also offers a bunch of parametric EQ customization, which I may play around with once I eventually get a mic to measure the room response. But my first concern with the MiniDSP (I don't know if you read my post from above) is that it seems to act as a DAC when I don't really want it to. I'm currently using a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. The MiniDSP would come after it in the signal chain. What I'm wondering is, since the MiniDSP is a DAC, will it take over for the Brooklyn DAC? I really don't want it to. If the Brooklyn is already converting digital to analog, would the MiniDSP need to convert it again? Would it convert it back to digital and then back to analog again? If I run the Brooklyn into the analog input on the MiniDSP, would that bypass the DAC conversion in the DSP since it's already receiving an analog signal? I'd much rather have the Brooklyn handle the conversion and just use the MiniDSP to handle the high pass filter to the mains. I know, lots of questions. Thanks again for your responses! |
Sounds like you are going plenty loud off a pair of stand monitors so more power may be moot but more current may still be a ticket to better sound. Two potential issues with trying to go louder: 1) the old heat/compression factor that could make it a moot point 2) the damage 100db + will cause to the ears over time if used regularly In my case, I wanted my system to not be a limit to how loud I go practically and achieved that. But now as with any dangerous weapon (to your ears) one must be careful how they use it. Also if phase/impedance curves for teh minis are available and show dips/issues at lower frequencies, setting up teh crossover to have teh powered sub address those and not the main amp should help alleviate any current bottlenecks. Remember that power requirements increase exponentially at lower frequency so as frequency goes lower the drain on teh amp increases not linearly but logarithmically ie a lot! AMps do most of their work producing bass. WHich is why getting bass under control in the gear first is so important. You always want your amp to not have to work any harder than it is designed to do and manufacturers will exaggerate that ability often for fear of limiting sales. No amount of room treatments can fix that issue if present. |
@noble100 thanks, I'm curious about much the same thing and will report back with results. According to @yyzsantabarbara the MiniDSP does have a robust parametric EQ capability that integrates with REW software. I won't be able to try that out until I pick up a mic, which I will most likely do after playing around with the unit for a bit. My greater concern is the digital/analog processing of the MiniDSP. It ultimately may not be worth it for me if the unit bypasses the DAC functions of my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. I'm hoping, by placing the MiniDSP after the DAC in the signal chain and using its analog inputs and outputs, it will preserve the analog signal coming from the Brooklyn DAC. Otherwise, it seems my nice DAC is being rendered useless by the MiniDSP. I'd rather have the Brooklyn converting digital streams to analog and not the MiniDSP. All I want the DSP to do is control the HP filter to my mains. I don't want to use it as a DAC. So we'll see. As far as a higher-powered amp, it's still on my radar. And my sub is already self-amplified. My solution may wind up being the much more expensive JL Audio active crossover and a pair of monoblocks but I'm starting with the MiniDSP since it's relatively cheap. |
I'm still curious and learning about the Loki and DSP Mini. I just have a few concerns I was hoping someone could help me with. As I understand them thus far from this thread discussion, the Loki operates in the analog domain and the DSP operates in the digital domain and uses digital upsampling. My1st concern is whether I'm correct about this? My 2nd concern is whether either of these devices utilizes parametric equalization (PEQ)? If so, I think it's important to know that PEQ and room correction equalizing are great at attenuating specific frequency peaks in a room, since these reduce demands on a system's amp. However, they're very limited in their ability to boost specific frequency dips in a room, since these can significantly increase demands on a system's amp, which has a finite amount of power. For example, correcting/boosting a single room frequency dip at 25Hz could require a doubling of wattage or more. I think diamonddupree/DoubleD should be aware that a single device like the Loki or DSP Mini HD may be very useful but only a partial solution to his issue. A completely effective solution will likely still require a much more powerful amp, at least a pair of self-amplified subs or perhaps even both. Best wishes, Tim |
Here is how it goes.... If you have the money to spend, despite the diminishing returns, the more of something you have, the better it is. So, having a 1000 w/ch amplifier is always better than a 500 w/channel amplifier, if you do not mind the cost. It is kinda like the condom story. It is best to have it and not need it, than needing it and not having it :-) |
@tketcham according to the MiniDSP manual: "Asynchronous XMOS USB input for streaming audio (up to 192 kHz)." And for Toslink, it says, "Connect a single digital source to the optical (TOSLINK) connector. Thanks to its asynchronous sample rate converter (ASRC), all sample rates between 44.1 and 192 kHz are accepted." What I'm wondering now is whether the sample rate limit is irrelevant if you're feeding the MiniDSP an analog signal. IOW, if I have the MiniDSP after my DAC in the signal chain, the DAC has already converted the digital file to analog, so wouldn't the DSP just pass along the analog signal to the amp that the DAC fed it? Or will it still downsample the file before passing it down to the amp? |
diamonddupree,
I wasn't aware that MiniDSP now samples up to 24/192. This changes everything! Actually, I've been considering purchasing a DSP setup to compare against the Loki Mini but was waiting until they could sample at the higher rate.
I've been recording LPs with a digital recorder at 24/192 and after cleaning the recording up a bit and applying some judicious normalization the sound is excellent. I think DSP correction could work really well after hearing what a digital recording of a LP can sound like. |
@yyzsantabarbara In advance of the MiniDSP arrival, I now have Roon upsampling set to 176kHz/192kHz, the maximum power of 2 upsampling the MiniDSP will handle. Whether the Roon upsampling or the active crossover results in greater sonic improvement, time will tell. That's some Holiday Inn, BTW! I guess those commercials were right. |
I do not know the answer to your upsampling question but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and learned something interesting. 1) I received a new Matrix Mini-i-3 Pro DAC yesterday ($899 MSRP) 2) Hooked it up and tried to get ROON via RJ45. Did not work since the ROON Certification is still a few days away. 3) I then used a very bad connection. Toslink from my very noisy computer to the Matrix using the TIDAL and Amazon clients. 4) Played a few songs and I am thinking this is rather good. I get to the 1976 song StarGazer from Rainbow and I am wowed by the sound. The percussion is hitting harder with better decay and it seems like the drummer is in the room. Awesome sound. 5) I switch to my Benchmark DAC3B ($1700 MSRP) on the better input of my preamp. It is connected to ROON with a microRendu. My best setup. 6) The same tracks are not the same sounding, It sounds more mellow and boring in comparison. 7) Only difference I can tell is that I have UPSAMPLING to 192 turned on on ROON. I turn it off and now only have my Convolution filter enabled. Boom, the excitement factor in the music is turned on instantly. Sounds as good as the Matrix, better in fact because of the better connectivity I have used. End result is that I am no longer upsampling on ROON. Maybe that upsampling is not very good or I just prefer no upsampling. Just an FYI. |
One thing about the MiniDSP that I wonder about (if @yyzsantabarbara @erik_squires @tketcham or anyone else knows) is whether it will limit the upsampling available in Roon. I typically upsample to DSD 256, but from what I've been reading on the MiniDSP, it has a sample rate up to 192kHz, at least the USB input does. (Not sure if Toslink would be higher.) Anyone know if the MiniDSP limits upsampling and if there's a way to bypass it? |
@diamonddupree Get the miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone for $100. Then download on a Windows 10 computer REW software. I am not sure if it works on a MAC. The free REW software will use the calibration file sent with the microphone and setup your mic. The nice thing about this combo is that the REW software has special integration with the miniDSP mic. A real breeze to get going and I had never done this before. You also need a test signal (maybe called a sweep signal). I used ROON to play the LEFT and RIGHT sweeps, one at a time. Once the data is collected by REW you have a lot of reports available including the SPL report. There are things like mic positioning, where it is pointed, and other things to do. Just contact the guy I referenced in the links and he will have you sorted out very quickly. Idiot proof instructions. |
diamonddupree, the Loki Mini
tone control
is very different than the MiniDSP in that the Loki keeps the signal in the analog realm while the MiniDSP uses a 24/96 digital sampling of the signal. The DSP route essentially offers what the Loki Mini provides but DSP has the advantages of using a software solution to how the signal is processed. That is, the frequency response of your speakers and subwoofer can be fine-tuned to a greater extent than with the Loki. But you can also get caught up in fine-tuning and lose sight of what you're trying to achieve. The advantages of the Loki is that the signal remains in the analog realm; perhaps more "pure" and easier to use for diagnostics. With the Loki I get an instantaneous response to how changing the roll off frequency affects the sound in my stereo room. It might be interesting to buy both and compare. |
@yyzsantabarbara very interesting and now I have a lot more reading to do! I just ordered a MiniDSP and I think next will be a mic that I can use to measure the speakers and room response. I think I'll probably still wind up with a new amp down the road but I'll have a much better idea of what to look for when I do. Thanks! |
@diamonddupree Your post is such an appropriate post for what I was considering doing, that is get an amp with more power at 2 Ohms, the CODA #8 v1, v2, or v3 (600 - 1600 watts depending on version). I actually got some extra cash today for year end and would have been all over a new amp except for the results that happened yesterday. I no longer need a new amp. I was reading a book on how to fix my issue. I ended up contacting the books author to remotely solve my acoustic issues. Take a look at my post here and to see what was done. Follow the links to see the graphs. This solution used a ROON Convolution file, microphone measurements of my room, and both REW and Audiolense software. Some very advanced stuff which I outsourced the to an expert. He has a business to do this type of work. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2/post?postid=2066167#2066167 Send me a A'gon PM if you want to discuss any of this by email. |
That’s good, but there is still not much to bank on with the MF amp regarding how it handles even 6 ohms nominal even with dips below that. So that still leaves things open perhaps to a significant extent. 6 ohms nominal may be a harder load than 8 ohms nominal with some dips...it all depends. You would have to try them with an amp known to be stable into 4 ohms which in most cases mean an amp spec’ed and preferably measured for 8 ohms that also doubles power as much as possible into 4. The MF might do that pretty well but there is nothing concrete to bank on that it would so far. If it could, you would think MF would document it and make the amp more appealing for more cases. Also the bass control offered by the very efficient Class D amps could still deliver a big difference alone. OR even a Class a/b with good documented performance into 4 ohms. Could even be Class A but that could get very big bulky and expensive to deliver the watts needed for headroom with less efficient speakers going louder. On the other note, I have considered a miniDSP for use with my KEF ls50s and Klipsch sw308 sub and liked it very much so very interested in how that works out. If we weren't such sound anal audio buffs we wouldn't even care about these details. We'd just say hey we have a good enough system and call it a day. Off course, no self respecting audio kook would EVER do that right? |
Hello diamonddupree, After my last post, I think you received some good advice from several members on the benefits of multiple subs and active crossover devices. I run my mains full range and have my 4 subs low passed between 40-50 Hz. I don't utilize an active crossover because I didn't notice a significant sq improvement when I tried one and reduced the bass sent to them. I believe this was because my class D monoblock amps provide ample power, 1,200 watts each into my 4 ohm main speakers, and ample current, up to about 30 amps. I just wanted to let you know, however, that I believe you may perceive a significant improvement in sq in your system by using an active crossover device like the Shiit Loki or DSP Mini to reduce the bass duties of your Magico Mini IIs. I believe both these devices operate in a very similar manner but I'm not absolutely certain. I also wanted to make sure you understand that utilizing at least a pair of good quality subs are also crucial for providing the high quality bass that will no longer be provided by the combination of your Magicos and your current single sub. It's useful to think of the use of the active crossover device and dual subs as 2 sides of the same coin; they're both partially responsible for seamlessly integrating the high quality bass performance of dual subs with the high quality midrange and treble performance of your Magico Mini IIs. They go together like hand and glove, Mutt and Jeff, eric_squires and millercarbon as well as Trump and incompetence. If you decide to take this path as an upgrade solution, I'll share some more useful info and tips, that may be useful to you, along the way. Tim |
Well its 45 amps per monoblock X 2 = 90 amps total.....nothing to sneeze at especially with a most efficient Class D design. Musical Fidelity is a stereo amp so most likely the peak is 140A total. Again, specs never tell all the story, but in lieu of similar measured specs into 4 ohms, 140 amps peak alone is more grey. It’s not uncommon for amps to cite high peak current delivery but without measurements or specs indicating what that means into 4 and even 2 ohms, its harder to make a valid comparison. Not to mention one being very efficient Class D and the other less so Class a/b. Measurements from an independent source is best. Bel Canto amps regularly get the full review and measurement treatment from Stereophile to add clarity. Meanwhile every Class D amp I have heard matched properly to pre-amp delivers a vice like grip on the bass that might sound relatively lean to some. WHen I first turned on my ref1000ms, I thought the bass was totally gone. No exaggeration. THen once my ears adjusted I heard it all.....extended, detailed controlled and articulate, not as fat flabby and one note as before. Meanwhile newer BEl Canto Class D amps claim stability into 3 if not two ohms. That’s pretty good! DO Minis imdepance go lower than 3-4 ohms at any frequency? How about phase? DOn’t know offhand but that would tell even more about how difficult a load they might be or not. |
The Minis go down to 37hz. Sounds like the active crossover will give me more precise control of the LP freq so maybe it's worth the price, and actually a deal compared to new monoblocks with extra headroom. Am I on the right track? Really appreciate your responses! Absolutely. Not only that, once you are into this, you can add EQ to the bass to tame room modes. :) Best, Erik |
Hi OP: The Loki was offered as a tone control, in case you just want more bass as an alternative to buying a subwoofer. Yes, the ceiling can be part of the issue. At louder volumes reflections and the resonance time matters a lot more. miniDSP is an active crossover with EQ capabilities. Some JL Audio subs include automatic integration/crossovers and so I highly recommend them as they include all the expert knowledge in configuring your mains and subs, plus I like the results. I know what you were trying to do, but without measurements it’s hard to tell what the right HP or LP setting is correct. Often crossover filters are offset to match both in phase and amplitude. Your speaker doesn’t go down to 38 Hz. it has a -3 dB response at 38 Hz (usually how this is spec'd, some use -6 dB), below which it drops around 12 dB/octave. So something like this: -3 dB @ 38 Hz -15 db @ 18 Hz However this is the anechoic response. Who knows what it’s doing in your room without measurement? :) One quick test I forgot to mention was the 2' test. Sit in front of your speakers, around 2-3' and listen when you hear the problem. Is the problem still there close up? If yes - The problem is your room. If no - The problem is the speaker or before. Best, Erik |
@mapman I'm going to try rolling off the Minis closer to 80hz or thereabouts with an active crossover and see what that does before I get a second JL sub, which I may do at some point down the road. I also want to demo the Bel Cantos from my local dealer and possibly some Simaudio monoblocks. I'm still not sold on Class D for mains but willing to give them a shot. Thanks for your responses! |
If it were me that owned the Magico Mini’s like any very good speaker, I would do anything I could ie throw the kitchen sink at it as needed to allow it to perform at its best before adding anything else. That’s what I did with my big Ohm 5s and it payed off 100%. No subs!! I never felt a need to add a sub even with the Dynaudio Contour monitors, though for some more extended recordings it would certainly have helped. I do use a sub with my kef ls50s. Those are the smallest monitors I have run regularly but wonderful within their limits and with a sub they are top notch, up to a certain SPL level that is more than satisfactory in the small room they are in. THe kefs + sub cannot compete with the much larger Ohm 5s in a much larger room with no sub in terms of going loud and clear. The Ohm 5’s with the 500 w/ch Class D Bel Cantos are the bomb. You turn up the volume and they keep going louder and clear until you reach those very high SPL levels that eventually get uncomfortable and can even cause damage to to the ear no matter what. THing is you never realize how loud the things are actually playing until you try to talk to someone and hear. That’s always a good sign from a distortion perspective! I know Ralph would agree with that. Compression is not an issue. My goal was to be able to do that. It took the 500 w/ch Class D BEl Cantos to do that. The previous 120 w/ch Musical Fidelity was no match. Nor the 330 w/ch Carver amp prior to that (voiced like a tube amp, limited current delivery into 4 ohms). The Carver did very well with the Magnepans I had prior to the big Ohms though. Magico Minis.....those are very good standmount speakers.....larger than many if not most. I would not expect them to compete with larger speakers of similar quality in terms of ability to go loud, but would expect them to be more than capable alone in a small to modest sized room driven to their max. Again, would be nice if other Magico mini owners would chirp in with their actual experiences trying to crank up the minis. |
A DBA has its own benefits regarding good bass throughout the room but only 1 sub is needed to offload work and reduce risk of compression initially although a DBA might introduce some unique connection requirements that would have to be addressed sooner or later so best to consider that up front. DBAs add complexity and would also likely take more time and effort to get right initially as a result. If it were me I would solve one problem at a time....resolve the problem at hand first with existing sub then consider adding DBA after that is resolved, but only if worth it for you. OR try those Bel Canto Class D amps as well if you can with no financial risk. That would keep things simplest and might make a big difference. How much will depend on the Magico’s ability to go loud without significant compression and how well the current amps truly can stand up. Other Magico mini owners would probably be best ones to provide information on how well they go loud and dynamic. Compression is real but may or may not be a significant issue case by case. Smaller speakers certainly up the risk. Sometimes you never know until you try. It’s nice to only have to add subs to extend the bass, not as part of a solution to fix it. Unless you are a "bass hound", I would expect the Minis driven to their max to be all the speaker most would need in most rooms, at least if room is not too large. |
Perhaps what @mapman was saying about increasing current flow could help this situation. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for your thoughts!The thing is, when you have thermal compression there is a tendency to turn up the volume/throw more power at it (if there is increased current then there is increased power) but that does not help if there is thermal compression - in fact it makes it worse. But if you are planning to get some of the bass energy off of the woofer, then it will have less thermal compression. So Erik's suggestion should be looked into, as well as a Distributed Bass Array, since the shape of the room really isn't relevant (I'd talk to Duke at Audiokinesis about that since he is really one of the few selling a DBA-dedicated sub system). |
OP, Although I've heard Magico speakers they were not your model. Much good advice above (save for one comment on headroom). I really think that you're trying to drive that 7" too hard. And due to the slopes of the crossover there is not a "brick wall" at 37hz and 38hz. I have a tri-amped system using an electronic cross-over spec'd for my system as in cross-over points and slopes. You need to take the low bass load off the amp, which will take it off the speaker as well. I think you might try a cross-over at 100hz give or take. Go here and check out all the possiblilties: www.marchandelec.com/electronic-crossovers.html Phil Marchand can be a big help. BTW, I have the XM-44 (It is tunable with different circuit cards). Regards, barts |
@gregm I'm going to look at hi passing the Minis with an active crossover, perhaps the Loki that @tketcham is recommending or a Mini DSP. Both look like inexpensive ways to figure out what's happening. And to answer your question, yes, this is only at very high listening levels. My neighbors love me. @onhwy61 I'll try an app to test SPL. Wasn't aware of one so thanks! |
diamonddupree , before you spend $3000 on an active crossover to experiment with sub integration, buy a $149 Schiit Loki Mini tone control. It’s a relatively cheap way to experiment with reducing the driver load on your Magico Mini II speakers. You may find that you just need to roll off the lowest frequencies using the Loki and raise the roll off frequency on your JL Audio sub. You did mention that the Magico Mini’s have great bass extension (for stand-mounts) but if it’s at the expense of the rest of the music the point is somewhat moot. The attenuation of the bass frequenciy range provided by the Loki may not be an ideal match for your speaker/sub pairing in your room but it will at least give you an idea of how the two interact. You might find that having the Fathom 110 provide more of the range of bass frequencies is a good thing. And may help in deciding on whether or not to purchase an expensive crossover unit like the CR-1.. For reference, I have stand-mount speakers similar to mapman and use two 10" sealed powered subwoofers in a 12’x20’ room. The subs are located at two different positions relative to the speakers. I have the Loki Mini tone control in-line between my preamp and a class D amp using one set of pre-outs and the subs are connected to the second set of pre-outs. I ended up rolling off the bass frequencies to the speakers by about 7dB and actually raising the roll off frequency on the subs to 90-100 Hz. Here’s a graph of the Loki’s tone control frequecies: https://i.imgur.com/XGDm140.png. Just a suggestion for an inexpensive way to experiment with your setup, not necessarily a final solution. Tom |
As mentioned above, the compression you hear is more likely to come from the 7 drivers rather than the amp. The obvious way to find out is by trying a higher spec’d amp on your speakers -- if the compression is gone, go for a more powerful amp. That should be your first stop.If it’s the drivers, you need to hi-pass the signal going to the magicos, either at ¬60 -¬80H (half or a whole octave above the speakers’ -6dB point). In other words, limit the amount of bass the magicos have to produce thereby reducing the strain on the woofers, and channel those frequencies to your sub. Any active Xover can do the job, including the one you mentioned. But it’s strange the drivers overload so fast -- you must be listening very loud :) |
The combination sounds excellent to my ears at low to moderate listening levels, but I notice a slight compression in the soundstage at higher levels.That's what the OP originally wrote. I understand that to mean the soundstage dimensions shrink at high volumes. Is that an accurate understanding? If you have a smart cell phone, download an SPL meter app and take a measurement of the volume level you start to hear this "slight compression in the soundstage". |
Hello, Typically an amp will increase wattage when driving lower ohm loads. A 100w amp might go to 160w at half the ohms. It doesn’t always double, but it usually increases. I don’t think power is an issue unless you hear clipping at higher levels. The rock wool could be a little too much if It is really thick. You are drowning out the mids and highs. And the drapery could be too little. Especially if it is not symmetrical. Room treatment is an art. You could be absorbing too much of the highs and those treatments you talked about do very little for bass. Plus the left side should match the right. You might want to switch or add defusers so you don’t kill your highs. At low levels your 7” drivers are balanced or barely keeping up. When you turn up the volume they could be drowning out your mids and highs. I think you need to test with near field listening. If your speaker wires are short get some cheep longer higher gauge wire and put those speakers in a 6’ - 7’ triangle to you. Remove some of the sound of the room. If it sounds really good it’s not your amp or the speakers. It’s the room. Redo the room treatment. Last but not least. Get two subs. My speakers are rated to 25hz. I still have two REL 9t subs. MC has four in his room and he has monster Tekton Moabs. Subs balance out a system and make it seam like your system is a 1000 times bigger even at the lowest volumes. Like I said your 7” drivers might not be moving much at low volumes but a sub can. When you rock out the sub can take over every thing below 50-80 hz. To do: Near field listening to determine is your equipment matched, balance absorption by removing or less thick rock wool to balance curtains, diffusers instead of absorption in some areas. (GIK.com), last but definitely not least a sub or two (sealed and 10” driver/s) stay away from ported subs- too sloppy in most cases. |
@noble100 thank you for that. Makes a ton of sense. I've been very pleased with the tightness of the bass coming from the JL sub and I was considering a second one a while back. I think, based on your comments and a few others', that my first order of business is an active crossover to stop the Minis from going below 80hz and letting the JL sub handle those frequencies. I really appreciate your response. |
Hello diamonddupree, The Magico Mini IIs are world class performers as far down as they go down in the audible audio spectrum, which is about 40 Hz according to Magico’s published specs. The fact is, these are extremely high quality stand mounted monitors that may be without equal reproducing music within their less than optimum audible technical range capabilities of about 40Hz to 20,000 Hz, even though they likely extend a handful of Hz deeper at a handful of dbs down. In my opinion, the "slight compression in the soundstage at higher levels" you notice are most likely the result of your 2-way speakers’ 7" drivers, even though they are very technologically advanced in design and materials, being required to reproduce the midrange frequencies as well as the mid-bass/deeper bass frequencies simultaneously. Of course their rated bass extension is only rated at 40 Hz but these 7" drivers are still being sent even deeper bass frequencies to reproduce by your amp. Since your speakers are 2-way and not 3-way, they lack a crossover network that could send the bass frequencies below a given Hz to a separate woofer driver. Therefore, the 7" combination woofer/midrange drivers simply attempt to reproduce both midrange and bass frequencies up to the limit of their capabilities. When you raise the main volume control, this only increases the demands on these drivers to reproduce not only the midrange frequencies at a higher output level, but also the deeper bass frequencies at a higher output level simultaneously. Also more amp current is required to faithfully reproduce bass than midrange frequencies. Not surprisingly, these 7" drivers struggle to do both of these things at the same time. The sonic results? The sound quality levels of both the bass and midrange are compromised, especially as the master volume level is increased, and a compression in the overall soundstage is perceived at a minimum. I seriously doubt an amp with more power, current or headroom is capable of solving the system sq issues you described. I suggest a better solution would be one of the following in order of effectiveness: 1. The addition of a high quality 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) system, as briefly mentioned earlier by atmasphere, that matches the high quality of your Magico Mini II main speakers, such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm complete bass system reviewed on the link below by the Absolute Sound: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I understand you don’t think you have the space in your room to accommodate this, however, according to your room diagram I believe you do. The subs are each only 1’x1’x2’ and would be spread around the perimeter of your room with the drivers facing and only 1-2 inches away from the nearest wall. My main speakers only extend down to 35 Hz and this DBA concept works exceptionally well in my 23’x16’ room. It’s a concept that Floyd Toole, Dr. Earl Geddes and other experts recognize as highly effective because Geddes scientifically proved the concept and published his results in a peer reviewed White Paper, which is available online. 2. The addition of a 2nd sub, either another JL F-110 or even the addition of a larger JL F-112 sub. 2 subs typically perform about twice as well as a single sub in most rooms and the overall bass extension is usually perceived as being as deep as the sub with the deepest bass extension capability. The benefits of using multiple properly positioned and configured subs in a room, that begin to be realized with as few as 2 subs, are bass that is smoother, faster, more detailed, more powerful and dynamic as well as being better blended with the main speakers. These bass qualities are increasingly more apparent as more subs are added to a given room up to a threshold of 4 subs, after which performance gains from additional subs in the given room typically become smaller and more marginal. As you and others have mentioned, using some sort of active crossover filter device that restricts bass frequencies from being sent to the main amp/speakers, simplifies the setting of low-pass and high-pass crossover frequencies and enables subs to be more easily incorporated, can also result in improved overall system sound quality performance. Tim "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you’re wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
I may have blurred the two above somewhat but just to be clear current delivery is more about tonal quality as well as articulate and detailed bass with difficult loads. Power is more about headroom and clipping with less efficient speakers. Two different kinds of distortion. Most good quality smaller yet bass extended speakers like Magico Mini are necessarily both less efficient and a difficult load. |
@erik_squires thanks for the links. I read both articles and they have me thinking of the one area in my room I haven't treated, the ceiling. The sounds I'm trying to correct is at admittedly very loud levels, so it's possible that it's creating reflections off the ceiling that don't exist at lower levels. After that, I think I need to look at active crossover to control the LP freq. The JL unit I linked above is fairly pricey. I looked at the Schitt unit in your article but it looks like that's more of an EQ than an active crossover. BTW, the reason I have the JL sub's LP freq at 38hz is that I wanted to minimize the overlap between where the mains drop out and the sub picks up as much as possible. The Minis go down to 37hz. Sounds like the active crossover will give me more precise control of the LP freq so maybe it's worth the price, and actually a deal compared to new monoblocks with extra headroom. Am I on the right track? Really appreciate your responses! |
Dynamic headroom means having more power than you need. If you don’t the amp may clip during dynamic peaks. If I ran the servers where I work without the dynamic headroom needed to handle peak workloads, they would crash and I be out of a job. Same concept. Dynamic headroom is your insurance against clipping and yes you need more power and often current to get it with less efficient speakers. More efficient speakers may still present a difficult load and require more current to sound their best so that alone is not a panacea. Very large speakers are typically more efficient. Some are also easy loads, some less so. If you want smaller but capable speakers like Magicos, the amp has to be able to up its game to deliver the goods. Either way or anything in between can work out top notch. You just have to get the system matched and set up well to meet your needs. |
Agree with Millercarbon about speaker efficiency. Disagree about headroom. I like having options while listening. High efficiency, low distortion speakers, with crossovers tuned to your taste, plus an amplifier with low distortion and more power than you need, is the beginning of getting it just right for any audiophile. It’s important to sound good at low levels, medium levels and high levels. The perfect system will be able to play distortion free, louder than you ever want to hear it. |
