What do you see as the downside of tubes?

Tholt, The mastersound amp he was thinking of buying was mine. And no he couldnt get enough cash up. Times are hard for many it seems. No worries though I love the se300b and its running as I type in my office system.

Since your choice of getting a Mastersound amp is done, this shows that you have gone beyond the no-return point as far as at LEAST trying tubes. Here is what I would do.

1. Not go through with the Mastersound, but get a different type of integrated, like maybe a small Cayin T-30, the one imported by Buzzy Bee, if you can find one. Why? First of all, it runs on relatively cheap tubes, like the EL34. You can also change tubes (tube roll) to a number of variants of the 6550 and KT 88 family. When going tubes for the first time, it is a lot of fun to experiment with different-sounding power tubes. The Cayin (and other similar integrateds) will not set you back more than $ 600 - $ 750, and replacement tubes will cost you a fraction of the 300B that the Mastersound uses. Above all, you will have tried a reliable machine, easy to bias, and will probably be able to find out if tubes are for you without emptying your bank account.

Another possible route:
I have gone from insanely expensive solid state and tube separates and integrateds (along with kilo-buck speakers, such as the Verity audio Parsifal), to a severe downgrade where I am now satisfied after years of the audiophile circus.

I a currently using (don't laugh now!) a Shanling MC-30 cd player-receiver complete with a single-ended amp built in, producing a WHOPPING 2 watts per channel! This amp is driving a pair of Opera quinta speakers, large, rich-sounding, and a perfect mate to this small wonder of an amp. Low level to moderate level volume only, but it is extraordinary in sound and resolution, smoking a past Sonic Frontiers Line 2 Power 2 combo in harmonic richness.

Why don't you give this little wonder a try? All of 600-700 will get you a tube preamp, set power amp, tuner, and a cd player that will compete with any $ 1,500.00 stand alone player when you finally add a separate power amp to it?

Read up on the MC-30 and be amazed.

Just an idea, good luck!

It looks like the answer to the question this thread imposed is that besides the extra care that tubes demand it worths it, based on many of your responses.

There were some other issues here (not that relevant to audio reproduction from my perspective) such as heat disipation whih might be troublesome for some.

Nice and informing thread so far!

Krauti, I've lost track of this thread. After 4+ pages...how is your Mastersound/LV combo working out? Happy with the glowing glass?

I have two systems of good quality. One SS and one Tube (DAC, Pre, Amp). The SS is in the TV room with surround sound etc. The stereo tube system is in the living room.

Although I listen to music on the SS system I experience the music on my tube system.

100% of my friends will want to listen to music on the tube system over the SS system.

Never have any problems with the tube components and I keep a good supply of tubes to roll which I find enjoyable.

We ran tube-based regulation for years. I'm as a big a fan of tubes as anybody, but when we developed a proprietary regulator for high voltage, it was **immediately** so much better than the tube circuits that there was no going back.

There are a lot of factors in a regulated power supply! Essentially the regulators behave as a sort of power amplifier that you are listening to. They have to be very linear and wide bandwidth to really work right. The problem we ran into with the tube regulators is that bandwidth is a real problem. The result is right now that our regulators function with wide bandwidth and about 2 orders of magnitude less noise than is possible with tube regulators.

I'm not saying that tube regulation is all done in, but some innovation needs to occur before it can keep up with a **properly designed** solid state regulator.

Jafox, from your comments and thorough review of Aria and Counterpoint, it would appear that these products owe their distinction primarily to tube power supplies. The flexibility of Aria in accommodating extensive rolling of tube families may also be a factor. Plitron and Dynamicap may be ruled out, as these are fairly common in high-end applications, and Dynamicap IMO is surpassed by several other types, particularly teflon. On the fourth hand, there is nothing like TX2575, which has proven superiority in disparate modded components in my system(e.g. BAT VK75SE, Merlin BBAM, Atma MP-1.)

On the point of rolling the Aria line section (particularly in view of poor results obtained with 6H30) I'm curious whether in addition to the switch between filament voltages, Aria obtains the optimal operating points across so many tube types. In phono section of my modded Atma MP-1, I've been back and forth between 12AT7, 12AV7, and ECC99. Each change requires fairly extensive R swaps for optimal operating point. Of these three tubes ECC99 sounds best-- which appears to have been an also-ran in Aria. So while I respect the versatility of tube rolling, I am cautious about pronoucing the superiority of any particular tube independent of circuit, and question whether a single preamp can do justice to so many tube types.

I'll add that the modded MP-1(which like Aria has the virtue of simplicity) includes replacement of 12AT7s with matched bipolar transistors in first gain stage of phono section(an Allen Wright idea planted in MP-1 by lewm.) This was a clear step up both sonically and in terms of gain. The latest factory iteration of MP-1 adds better CCS regulation to improve 12AT7 performance, so the question remains open from this experiment regarding relative superiority of tube and hybrid in phono. (My PH-2 rebuild will press the point further into FET. BTW, I also had a long run with BAT P10. The modded ARC PH-2 is the keeper.)

Perhaps the discussion boils down to tube vs. SS power supplies. On this point I can offer little other than to add that in my schema, the latest high-voltage silicon carbide zero recovery Schottky rectifiers improve significantly upon soft recovery discrete Hexfreds(or worse, 4-pin bridges) used in SS power supplies in most top gears. Some designers will argue that a tube power supply cannot equal the dynamics and energy of SS. Schottkys also raise the bar in terms of tube-like refinement. So the jury may be out on that one as well.

Dgarretson, Thanks for your input here. I had the PH2 for 6-7 years and loved it. This was the one sleeper in the ARC product line that truly was an outstanding product. I only "upgraded" to the BAT P10 as I wanted more phono gain and benefitted with a little more foundation in the bass. I can imagine that a parts update, 15 years later would open up significantly the PH2 in dynamics and clarity.

As for the TX2575 contributions in the Aria, I do not know since I did not hear one with the "standard" Vishay resistors. But if you read my lengthy (sorry) review of the Aria, 2/3 of the way down, you will see that I did a major overhaul to a Counterpoint SA-2.

When the stock SA-2 died, I discussed many options with Michael Elliot. Ultimately it was a cap in the PS that failed. I suggested that he rebuild the PS with the same parts as the Aria. And to also switch over to a Plitron transformer....in an external chassis that I found on a DIY site. I was so overwhelmed by the performance of this that I bought another SA-2. Comparing these two units, it was the Plitron that was 70-80% of the performance improvements with the rebuilt SA-2. This was easy to verify as I could swap the old and new transformers between the two SA-2s. I knew then more than ever the importance of a PS transformer, in a preamp anyway. And I suspect this has more to do with the Aria's level of dynamics and clarity (as it too uses the Plitron) than due to the TX2575 resistors.

I went onto to replace 20 resistors in the SA-2's audio stage. This was a well spent $200. The improvement in clarity went up another notch, but otherwise the sonic signature was untouched. And finally, the remaining RelCaps in the audio stage were updated to Dynamicaps as used in the Aria and the SA-2's rebuilt PS. And again similar benefits but the 3D strengths of this unit remain.

So from these experiences, I attribute the Aria's clarity to the Plitron, the very simplistic circuit design of the phono and line stages, and most definitely the TX2575 resistors ..... in this order.

As for the Aria and SA-2 excelling as tube products, I attribute this to their tube PS more than anything. Even with stock tube in the PS, the sound is quite amazing. But I have discovered 3 tubes here that take this unit to a whole new level of 3D performance. This is one area that the above updates do not affect very much. And with nearly the same tube compliment in the Aria's PS, I have found these tubes to do the same thing here.

The other major benefit is that a very high percentage of tube line stages out there are 6922 based. With the Aria, I can run tubes in the 12AU7 family. And I have found a few types that significantly outperform (it's not even close) my coveted Amperex 6922 PQ pinched waist, and at a fraction of the 6922 cost.

So yes, the TX2575 contribute to the Aria's stellar performance, but a number of other factors, mainly the Plitron and the all new designs in the audio stages, coupled with the long proven tube PS here, have far more to do with this.

Dav65mus, Be careful what you wish for, especially if you like what you presently are using. The road to audio hell is paved by folks trying to make a meaningful positive change to get only a small, or any, meaningful improvement. Different perhaps, degredation often. Buckle-up before you take this road! :-)

Dav65mus- Come on do it !!!!!

So experience and the means to experiment indicates less understanding? You should work for Obama you nutball. This is becoming ridiculous. Why do some people have to shore up their emotional inadequacies at the expense of others? Audiofeil is THEE person who uses other peoples responses (out of context of course)as an excuse for an answer. Check HIS postings for anything helpful, useful or even remotely original. I enjoyed all of my gear and was fortunate enough to be able to play around quite a bit. Now I have more responsibilities and less expendable cash. I was not picking on anyone or attacking anyone. Enjoy what you have while you can...life is so fleeting:O)

Heat is my only complaint.( My listening room is only 10x10)

I have a Will Vincent rebuilt dynaco st70 currently in my system. My system consists of quad 11L mini monitors, classe dr6 preamp, sansui tu516 tuner, and denon cd/sacd player.

After buying the st70,I was very surprised at how wide,deep, andwarm sounding my system became after switching from a solid state marantz 2265b reciever.

I decided to try some different tubes in the dynaco and switched out the el34's for a set of gold lion kt66 repops.
Unreal difference!! This dynaco is very detailed now with a fuller sound and is no longer rolled off on the upper end like it was with el 34's.

I wanted to try a "quality ss amp to see if I could get the same results as the kt66 tubed dynaco and dropped the money on a mint bryston 3b st....... while the bryston drives the mini monitors with tighter bass and more authority, it has a much thinner soundstage depth and does not sound nearly as good as the dynaco especially at lower volume levels.

Tubes sound better to me, and the only downside is heat, and ocassional tube replacement.

Now if I would just step up to the pump and buy a really nice tube amp like a cary........

Dave changes components more than he changes underwear.

Read his posting history, it's all there.

This clearly indicates his lack of understanding and inexperience regarding our audio hobby. He has no idea where he's going, only where he's been.

His advice and comments cannot be taken seriously as other posters have illustrated so succinctly using his words.

Tube simply don't like some highly reactive loads. Some speakers, even some with benign impedance curves and medium and higher sensitivity won't mate well with tubes due to high phase angles.

"Just listen to your tubes and get off already...."

Try these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dF2WcrdxdQ

Oh my God, just listen to your tubes and get off already! Some tubes, most tubes, your tubes, my ex-tubes, her tubes, tubes tied...what the freakin' hell, are you guys for real? Most tubes "I've" owned and or listened to. I had ARC reference gear in one rig...don't even get me started on that horrid 6H30 tube:O( Did I mention I am around live music almost everyday? It aint tubelike and it aint SS...it's real.

Tvad, A good observation. It was this exact statement that got my 'interest' going and was the fundamental reason I posted. I suspect that if I heard his 'optomized' soundstage I would consider it as unrelated to the sound of a live event as the lack of reality that he seems to think would be introduced by the use of 'tubes'.

None of it sounds real, amplified in the venue or not. SS or tubes. And, IMHO, it is not even close, so why not just pick the sound that you prefer, tell youself that it is as close to your recall of real as you can get, and be happy.

He seems to have overlooked the fact that the OP didn't ask for a discussion on the benefits of SS v Tubes, a decision that had already been made. Seen in that frame, which was my frame of reference, I couldn't understand why he would bless the thread with his observations about his views of the strengths of SS and the 'apparently' universal weakness of tubes.

Oh well, time for me to shut up as well. :-)

Tvad- Further; making that statement would seem to imply that the individual had listened to, "most tube based components" that have been manufactured. A premise that I highly doubt!

I have recordings of concerts, both jazz and classical that I have attended. Both were unamplified. I have a piano, baritone, cello and flute in my house (my daughters have the talent). I don't need to convince myself or anyone else that what I'm hearing is more realistic. Audiofeil is obviously deeply disturbed going by the intensity of his anti-social rants. That said, I did not knock tubes or applaud SS...I've owned and enjoyed both. Right now I have a system synergy which does it for me on a repeat basis which happens to be SS. The special nature of the real thing is that it is clear, pure, accurate, extended and dynamic with no blurring, distortion or grain. Tonality of course must be dead on. The xtra something is that sense of energy that fills the venue when attending a concert, which many systems miss completely. Let's not forget that the material we listen to can effect our expectations as well.

Jafox, the advantage you hear with Aria may owe more to TX2575 resistors than to tube vs. SS paradigm. Lately to get a better grip on the tube vs. SS debate I've been all out modifying a SS ARC PH-2 in parallel with an Atma-Sphere MP-1 phono section. The usual assumptions about SS being flat, sterile, and lacking tonality relative to tubes does not apply once one replaces the red rectangular Wima MKP caps often used in ARC and many other SS gears. TX2575 resistors as used in Aria are peerless and found in no other commercial gears AFAIK. This story is unfinished until I've put 20-30 of them in SS ARC, but so far these highly modified tube & SS phono sections are pretty close.

Jafox,

I totally believe you.

I am saying to all you never hear the H2O. My sound was crap at first. I learned I was hearing my preamp, wires, and speakers. I am not Bsing. I have found, through trial and error, what works, and what doesn't. The H2O builder was so disenchanted with preamps, he made his own. It is the perfect match. No more preamp worries. Next came the cables. Naked ribbon is the clear winner. Thirdly, the source is of critical importance. I have been working with the H2O builder to make a killer Audio Note DAC. The result is nothing like what stock AN DACs sound like.

Hell, it doesn't matter. Enjoy your music. I am.

Jayfox, Re: "In defense of Dave b". I too understand what he means but more importantly I understand why he arrives at his conclusions. That I think his reasoning is flawed, and certainly not in accord with mine (or yours) but what pleases his ears is all that counts in his house. However, anyone who considers his observation as any form of 'truth' certainly risks great disappointment.

BTW Jafox I agree with your views, especially those suggesting that signal decay is more often than not a signal truncated prematurely by most SS (and some tubed stuff as well) which makes their sound initially sound more "transparent", "detailed", etc, when in fact it is really inaccurate and creates a sterile, fatiguing sound, even though the frequency response is relatively flat. But some folks like this sound. I'm sure they would find 'my sound' thick, bloated, dense, slow, etc.

Dave b, A question - regarding your analogy involving the sound of music in a jazz club as reproduced by your system. Are you referring to performances you actually attended and that you have heard unamplfied performances, or that you have actually heard the events live that you are now listening to in a recorded form and that you are confident that you are in fact hearing something that occurred in the performance, not in the mixing booth (etc)? FWIW, I always find the assertion that someone finds any recording played over any equipment ever sounds like a live performance. It typically suggests to me that the person doesn't know the clues to listen to or doesn't get out much.

For example, consider that most live jazz club performances are not played with out amplification for each instrument and their sound is blended in with the sound of the acoustic (room) that may be overly resonant or damped, or that the amplyfing equipment itself, or speaker placement, produce an overly dense source, isn't it then possible that a SS system which truncates the signal length only makes the recording/your system sound move like a real live and unamplified one? Just a thought...........I don't understand how you can sort out all of these varibles. I always think that the best we can hope for is that we own the equipment envisioned by the recording engineer and that his efforts to make it sound 'live' are successful.

Hey Bill, Keep stiring the pot! But, why not share with us your underlying reasons for arriving at and making your terse observations. That way we could see some meaningful mud slinging! :-)

Jafox-I think that one reached the upper deck and stayed fair.

I have tubes only in my DAC. All the layering, spatial clues, and tonality of the tubes are expressed,

You just keep on convincing yourself of this.

I tried the H20 amp in my system a few years ago and the one thing that the old and lowly backup Counterpoint NPS400 amp did was to significantly outperform the H20 amp in the context of portrayal of space and decays. And this is a hybrid amp with small-signal tubes on the input. The main amps I use, CAT JL-3 are of course in a completely different league than this. But a JL-2 or the Atmasphere MA1's would be fine to show what tube amps would do to take this to the next level. So one can be convinced that all they need is tubes in their DAC to achieve the strengths of tubes, but my experience paints quite a different picture.

And if you need an amp to drive 1-ohm loads, the CATs can be tweaked to accommodate this and not blink an eye.

Audiofiel follows me around, like a rabid dog. I take his criticisms as a badge of honor. It shows my cage rattling is being heard. I loudly profess nearly all commercial grade cables are a sham. For a dealer, like audiofiel, those are fighting words. Also, the amps and preamp I am using can only be bought direct sale.

If not this year, next year, at an audio show, I will demonstrate the truth behind my assertions.

I have tubes only in my DAC. All the layering, spatial clues, and tonality of the tubes are expressed,

In defense of Dave_b here, I understand what he has written. As a tube diehard here, I have owned many tube preamps (ARC SP-10, LS5, BAT P10/31SE, Aesthetix Io/Callisto Sig) in the last 25 years that did indeed have a layer of grain and haze compared to the ultimately transparent solid state models that I have heard: Krell, Mark Levinson, klyne, Spectral. But these solid state products tend to be dimensionally flat compared to the tube products I have listed. But the above tube products had a level of musical realism that the sterile solid state products could not match.

No matter how "transparent" the sound may be, if the notes are instantly truncated and the harmonic overtones die rather quickly as well, I am not interested. Every time I have tried another preamp (line stage) in my system, I go for piano music. And then I run upstairs to hit a few keys on the piano. It's amazing and quite sad at how many line stages, tube products included, fail this test. But a few tube products nail it unlike any solid state line stage I have tried. And this is why I still have no tolerance for a solid state preamp. Surely there must be one that stands out from the crowd, but I have not heard it.

As for the issue of getting a preamp that excells in the 3D and clarity departments, my quest is over with the Aria WV. The other products I owned are quite a ways back from this performance. And with a little effort with trying various tubes in the line and phono stages and the PS, this product can be taken to a whole new level or performance than its stock EH/Sovtek tubes.

With tube products, and a lot of effort and patience, I can tune the system to my priorities and to the room to achieve a great balance of tonal coherency, dynamic contrasts and 3D. With solid state products I am stuck with the sound of the base product. At best I can move the speakers around or use cables as tonal bandaids to integrate the system to the room. But I have little to no control of the dynamics or dimensionally.

Knowing what I found out about tube variety, I will not buy amps, and preamps. The cost is just too high.

This is total nonsense. Trying a budget product and giving up on tubes because of a few problems is hardly a valid reason to dismiss tubes wholeheartedly. I have discovered a number of small signal tubes in the $30-50 per pair that quite easily destroy tubes selling these days at $500 or more. But it takes a well built product to show the strengths and differences.

>>07-23-09: Dave_b
No, it's called having ears Audiofeil.<<

Very bad ears apparently.

>> It's all good fun...unless someone invites YOU Audiofeil.<<

Don't need an invite here; least of all from you rookie.

>>Aren't you out of business yet?<<

Actually my business is quite strong at the moment. Better than 95% of others from what I'm hearing.

Lots of tube gear from people who really have a grasp on audio.

You wouldn't know any of them.

Rleff, what I mean is that even in my best ARC reference based system, I found a subtle dulling of transients and a fine layer of film that precluded me from feeling directly connected to the music. In other words, if I put on a great live jazz recording I know well and have heard on various systems over the years, it should fill my listening space with energy and excitement...more "thereness" if you will. The feeling I expect to hear is like walking into a live jazz club while the band is smokin'. That energy, vibe and "aliveness" is what better SS does for me over the many virtues of tubes:O)

I respect what Dave-B shared with us, and I know many friends who also prefer the sound of SS over Tube designs and that is fine... even mixing tube and solid states in the audio chain brings very good results to some systems.

A world full of colours, options and tastes is what keeps this hobby interesting.

Dave_b I was wondering what your view of "the tubes getting in the way" means?
Do you feel that the solid state gear you listed equals or
excels better than tubes as far as being able present the
being there experience?
I enjoyed solid state before tubes but it just didn't seem to be able to reach that goal for me.

No, it's called having ears Audiofeil. Again, I stated MY preference. I've owned several tube based systems and enjoyed them. System synergy is the most important aspect to getting good sound anyway, but in the end I prefer Pass, Krell, MF, Spectral etc. I have had tube preamps mated to SS amps with varying degrees of success as well. It's all good fun...unless someone invites YOU Audiofeil. Aren't you out of business yet?

>>07-23-09: Dave_b
Most tube based components get in the way<<

This clearly demonstrates a lack of experience.

Or poor listening skills.

Again.

For me it has mostly been about clarity or transparency. I want to sense that there is nothing between me and the players. Anything that dulls, rounds off or clouds the soundstage is unacceptable! Most tube based components get in the way, despite whatever plus they may offer.

Exactly Fernando- I don't see ANY downside to tubes AT ALL. Your perspective will be based on your love for the sound of music.

Polk - Good idea - but sometimes that saving flow shoud be a bit larger than a few bucks, I bought NOS Genelec KT88 at a thousand dollars the pack of 4 !!!!

Again... To me it worths every penny (and pain) the tube route.

Fernando

Why not just put aside a few bucks eack week and get new tubes every 12-18 months? It's really not that much each week.

I have been in and out from pretty serious SS gear to tubed designs and viceversa for the last 30 years, I learned to live with the mentioned tube disadvantages on behalf of the musicality and engagement they produce.

It happens to be that I got rid of SS amps at a faster rate than for tubed amps along the road.

I had fun tube rolling my Jolida 100. There weren't that many brands, and they were fairly cheap, including the best, the 5751 Sylvania black plate. That is until other folks found they liked them too. Within months, the price grew by 10 times.

Knowing what I found out about tube variety, I will not buy amps, and preamps. The cost is just too high. I watched a $600 tube get blown by a ham fisted listener spinning the bias knob. I could have cried for the owner, who just got finished telling us how long it took him to get the pair of big bottles.

MIke,

I think that can be true.

More toys to play with. That can be either good or bad.

You become obsessed with tube rolling and spend way too much money doing it. "tongue-in-cheek" but also true.

Have fun, live and learn and most of all...enjoy the ride:O)

there is a risk that when purchasing a pair of allegedly matched tubes, there is a difference sonically, between them. i have experienced this myself.

Thanks Brianhutch, always glad to hear from guys who run the same speakers. As I did buy these speakers with this particular amp in mind I think I'll be ok for the future. Also can't see myself wanting to change the system that much anytime soon.

If anything will change than it should be the sources as they will be the weakest link then.

For now I'll get the amp and we'll see what comes after that.

Just a little more on integrating the living voice avatars into the home system.I tried my old pair of vtl 225,s on the Avatars with great results lots of control and as I move the speakers around in the room searching for the perfect placement I am playing them mostly 4 feet from the side walls and just over 6 feet from the rear wall slightly toed in. The order of preference in amp choice of my available units is the vac,s then the sophia then the vtls.As the Avatars are so efficient small microphonic noises not audible on my other speakers become apparent and annoying between cuts.Source equipment quality changes very easily detected and the speakers are extremely transparent.I dug out a home built pair of supertweeters using focal T120 Ti,s and they are integrating well using a 1mf cap in line and the soundstage is wider deeper and imaging improved I really will have to get permanent enclosures completed for these and santos rosewood would be a safe choice.I think the only downside to your amp is that it may not have enough power if you wanted to change to less efficient speakers at a later date and you would greatly narrow your choices,but with the avatars no problems at all, I think they would play to satisfying levels with a transistor radio.

Phd, for me to continue would make me guilty of what you have done that I object to. These forums will become what all of us tolerate. You guys want political (Yes, discussions about GM and global warming ARE political) discussion, go right ahead. But there is already a forum that has been dragged down by that nonsense. It's called AA.

And if the word "bullshit" puts you guys off? Well, good luck to you all.

Unsound your 100% correct - it is a real turnoff!

Dan ed, my comments in regards to GM were directly related to Krauti's last post that he was hopeful that he would still be employed by GM because of their recent filing for bankruptcy. So you see sir that that he himself injected a comment that had little to do with his own thread. I was just pointing out that part of GMs trouble is related to some of their failures to change.

A minority of members carry so much anger that they have to resort to cursing. It is ok with me, I know times are tough but it makes little sense to lose your credibilty even though the thread was briefly misdirected.

If every audiophile purchased class D amps, it still would have little effect on the enviroment since we as audiophiles represent a small segment of society. You buy what ever turns you on but my final comment that there is a downside to both tubes & solid state holds true and it's just a matter of chosing whatever turns you on.

Unsound, perhaps you don't see that the majority of the posts on this thread are answering the question "what do I not like about tubes". After reading the original post by Krauti, the question being asked is really "if I own tubes, what do I need to know".

It would nice if we could return to succintly responding to queries and approriate discussions without the personal afronts.

And the bullshit political rhetoric as well! I don't care which moron or which moronic cause anyone supports in politics. It just doesn't belong here.

When did this forum become so mean spirited? I can't rememeber when we've seen so many personal attacks in one thread. It would nice if we could return to succintly responding to queries and approriate discussions without the personal afronts. Perhaps those that feel the need to lower the standards of this type of dialogue should frequent that other site?