What are the advantages of electrostatic versus floor speakers w/wo external drivers?

Different, yes, better?

I love BIG speakers.  I've heard a lot of Maggies, and Apogees. I like small planars too. I like any alternative to a round speaker, above, 300 hz.

Round speakers, domes included, carry a lot of mass. Just not as fast as most planars.. BUT all speaker drivers, have their issues. 

Like huge panels, are prone to bass distortion, they collect it, So you have to control it or deal with it. Usually lose it, dampen it,  or servo control it. Servo is the best, for my application..

Regards

Hey Sokogear,

I've been a fan of line sources and ESL's for many years.  What they do most of all is interact with the room very differently than a box speaker. The narrow dispersion causes more of a headphone effect at the listening location.  They also are great at sounding the same no matter how high up you sit.

They can be much more demanding of an amp, and require more space behind them, and also have a narrow sweet spot, along with a non-neutral presentation.  However, some fans can't imagine listening to anything else. 
After a lot of listening, and reading, I don't find the argument that they are faster as compelling as the argument that they just interact with the room differently and sometimes very very conveniently.

Best,

E

I like to be able to be in different locations since my system is in my den that is open all the way back to my kitchen seating area - probably a total of 44' x 18' with some openings in the back.

I was a confirmed Magneplanar listener for many years. Nothing seems as open and transparent. Box speakers just didn’t compare, yet box speakers had advantages to- more satisfying dynamics for one thing.

All that changed for me in 2000 when I heard a pair of Revel Studios. Did everything as well as my big Maggies with ribbon tweeters and so much mire

 my point is that today- box speakers can exhibit all the positive qualities of a panel speaker  

I have the new Janszen zA2.1 Valentinas. They are a hybrid design that’s been around for while but his recent woofer upgrade is rather spectacular. The twin 8” woofers Complement the dual electrostat panels In a way ends bass integration issues. The sound Is wonderful and bass is plentiful. Since I’ve moved them into my living room with the advantage of a cathedral ceilings they have really opened up.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7406

Very different technologies: compared to cone drivers, electrostatic speakers:

Advantages:
Very fast, transparency, clarity, realism

Disadvantages/differences:
Requires a lot of power
Takes up a lot of space 
Has subpar/poor/non-existent bass/sub-base because tech cannot push enough air
Subwoofer integration very difficult/disappointing- matching fast electrostatic w slower cone subs 

However, I believe Magnepan is working on a project “Magnepan for Condos” for matching their electrostatic w a different custom fast subwoofer- preliminary concept sonic reviews were really positive 

Sokogear wrote: " I like to be able to be in different locations since my system is in my den that is open all the way back to my kitchen seating area - probably a total of 44’ x 18’ with some openings in the back. "

Disclaimer: I am a dealer for a brand that I’m going to mention, so take this post with as many grains of salt as you see fit.

If you want to enjoy essentially the same sound quality throughout that large space, imo there are three things you should be aware of:

First, for "hybrid" speakers which combine a tall panel with a woofer, the tonal balance will change as the listening distance changes. This is because the sound pressure level falls off more slowly with distance from the line-source-approximating panel than from the point-source-approximating woofer. I measured a 5 dB in-room shift in the relative loudness of woofer and panel when going from 1 meter back to 8 meters. At 1 meter, the panel was 1 dB softer than the woofer (using pink noise). At 8 meters, the panel was 4 dB louder than the woofer. Therefore, I suggest you use full-range panels which do not rely on a woofer for the bottom end.

Second, the line-source-approximating radiation characteristic of a tall fullrange panel means that the falloff in SPL at the back of your room will be considerably less than with normal speakers. So the loudness will be much more even throughout the room.

Third, the further back from the speakers you are, the more their off-axis response will influence and/or dominate the perceived tonal balance. (This is because the direct-to-reverberant sound ratio decreases as listening distance increases, and the off-axis energy dominates the reverberant field.) So if you want the tonal balance to be the same from essentially anywhere in the room, like it is with live music, then in my opinion you want speakers whose off-axis sound is virtually identical to their on-axis sound. Maggies do this better than flat-panel electrostats, but imo the big SoundLab faceted-curved-panel electrostats excel at this because their radiation patterns are the most consistent over the widest arc.

I’m a SoundLab dealer because the things they do well are, in my opinion, things that matter. I’m also a speaker manufacturer and my designs try to mimic some of the things SoundLabs do well, such as having good off-axis response.

So among panel speakers, my suggestion is Maggies or SoundLabs.

Duke

I'm a huge Martin Logan fan. There's a spectacular end to Beethovens 9th. The full orchestra and the choir and all 4 soloists at full throttle and from nowhere the piccolo sounds over them all. I want to be able to pick out the piccolo not just it's sound but in its physical position within the wall of sound. Electrostatics produce a holographic, 3D sound like no other. The advantage of the Logans is they have a panel plug an active base until. Best of both worlds 

Can't stand the sound comming from Electrostats, Hate that speaker line. I also hate that speaker line that has a  driver sitting on top the cabinet,, You know which lab i am refering to. 
So yeah big thumbs down for both designs. 
The perfect design is a MTM, Mid woofer + mid tweet + mid woofer. 
Best ever design.  All the bass you want, Full rich and glorious.

I owned Magnepan 3.5Rs with the true ribbon. Might have been happy in a much smaller room, but mine is ~ 20 x 40 x 12. I have 2 SVS powered subs (Plus and Ultra) but could never get them to interface smoothly

I also owned a bunch of box speakers, but most of the cost goes into the cabinet and especially stopping it from resonating, which has to affect the internal XOs: same problem with active speakers

What to do? OPEN BAFFLE. Emerald Physics makes excellent OB speakers with carbon fiber woofers and midranges that are concentric with polyester tweeters. Seamless, dynamic, capable of throwing an enormous 3D soundstage. Simply amazing and they are under 4ft high


My 3.4s play most music beautifully, except for deep bass, but you can get the 2,8s for that

hth

tweak1,

I suspect you’re right. I’ve yet to hear any electrostatics that sounded balanced. Some things were very good, open airy and expansive mids, but some very bad, bass balance, dynamics and timing.

Even the original Quad ESL57s didn’t work out for me, but maybe I didn’t know how to get the best out of them. I’d still like to hear some Magnepans or Martin Logan’s though.

As for box speakers, there does seem to be a discernible ceiling on performance with them. Most have bandwidth/ resonance/ crossover / dispersion / drive unit integration problems etc.

I feel that most of these issues are down to the way the bass is interacting with everything else. As you say, most of the cost goes into keeping the cabinet inert so that it doesn’t interfere.

On the other hand I’ve not heard the KEF Blades, B&W 803s or any of the almost universally well regarded Revel range.

When you read so many good things about Revel speakers it almost sets up an impossible ideal for them to match up to when you finally get to hear them.

Open baffles also seem to have the same problem as electrostatics in one regard - domestic acceptability. Probably explains why box speakers remain the norm despite their box issues which the other two don’t have.

sokogear, As with most things in audio, there is more "different" than there is "better or worse". E-stats fall into a category I like to call "light membrane drivers" which also includes AMTs, ribbons, planar (like Analysis Audio and Magnepan) and others. One physical or mechanical advantage (relative to transducers) is their light weight. Music happens in the time domain and amplitude domain with phase response contributing. As long as a driver is used within its designed frequency range, displacement limits and baffle configuration, and is tracking the input signal, there really is no "fast" or "slow" driver. If a driver can't do a reasonable job then it's either broken or junk. If a driver is reproducing 500 Hz, that's its speed. If it was "slow" then it would not be reproducing 500 Hz. I believe what people are referring to as "a fast driver" is a driver that can accelerate and decelerate closer to the ideal, which is instant with zero lag. Basic physics tells us that "instant" is basically not obtainable. Basic physics also tells us (all else being equal) that a lighter membrane will accelerate and decelerate closer to the ideal. Many people refer to this as "transient response". The ability of a driver to  accelerate and decelerate closer to the ideal is important for the driver to be able to track complicated wave forms, music.

Line sources, panels, OBs, box speakers, long and short ribbons, AMTs line arrays and other designs is a different discussion.

Our speakers are an AMT line source design that are OB and have a sensitivity of 105dB. The OB woofer is separate. Harry Weisfeld, founder of VPI Industries and proud owner of our Apollo12 speakers describes them as" the fastest speaker he has ever heard". Our measurements tell me that their excellent transient and phase response is why they sound "fast".

Mike 

Are electrostatics considered the next level with a corresponding price bump, or just an alternative technology?

The latter.

One should be careful when driving ESLs if you wish to get the best out of them. Because they are a fundamentally different approach to transducers, the optimal way to drive them is different too. Most ESLs have an impedance curve that varies over a 10:1 or 9:1 range- the highest impedance being in the bass region, and then 1/9th or 1/10th of that at 20KHz. This is why Martin-Logans are only about 0.5ohms at 20KHz, since they are 4 ohms in the bass (which is often a cone driver).

Because of this impedance swing and because ESLs are based on a capacitor rather than a driver in a box, the usual voltage rules don't work so well on them. You can wind up with something that is really detailed and bright; what you are after is the former but not the latter. Now a speaker that is a driver in a box has an impedance curve that shows something about the resonance of that driver in the box- the impedance will be higher at those frequencies. ESLs simply don't work that way- the high impedance peak needs just as much power to make a certain sound pressure at 10 feet as it does at 1KHz where the impedance might be half of that of the bass. Conventional speakers don't work that way at all!

So if you are planning a solid state amp to audition the ESLs, be prepared for bright and weak bass. A tube amp is required to make the speaker play bass correctly, as with the higher impedances the amp can continue to make power where a solid state amp can't.

Its for this reason that on a set of Sound Labs you might need a 600 watt solid state amp to make enough sound pressure, but a 150 watt tube amp would be able to keep up with that 600 watt amp no worries! For more on how this works seehttp://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html


The advantage of ESLs over many other speakers is that they use a power supply to operate the electrostatic field. Conventional speakers that use a permanent magnet have a phenomena where as you put current through the voice coil, the magnetic field weakens slightly. This creates a slower and less dynamic result. The kind of permanent magnet driver that does this the least are those equipped with Alnico magnets, but Alnico is also the weakest magnet structure (although they can be focused nicely in the voice coil gap). ESLs don't have this issue and so they sound obviously faster right away. With conventional drivers the only equivalent that exists are field coil powered drivers, where a power supply supplies the energy for the magnet.