I'll throw my hat in the ring and say that the Thales Easy is one fine tonearm. I have it mated to a modded out VPI Scout in a separate tonearm pod and this thing sings. Eliminating the tracing distortion inherit with pivoted arms has been a revelation. I have a Benz Micro Wood with ML stylus on it running into a Sutherland Engineering Little Loco phono stage and am gobsmacked every time I sit down for a listen and I've been spinning vinyl for 35+ years. Of course, YMMV...
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Does either of you have a clear idea of what the resonances do that is detrimental to the overall sound?When I got rid of the arm tube resonance in the SME, it was immediately less bright and more detailed; images in space were more palpable. My 'tweak' for the VTA was to make a little mark on the height adjuster know with tiny bit of Whiteout. That was I was able to track how many turns or fractions of a turn I had done to get it right. By contrast the Triplanar VTA is adjustable on-the-fly, and it has two scales to show you where you are. |
@rim - guess I won't be considering a VPI in the future. Sticking with what I've got for the long haul now that it is insulated from vibration and sounding great. I have it on a Townshend Seismic platform sitting on a wall mounted shelf. Adding those were tremendous improvements. I was a non-believer, but I was amazed at the SQ from my system. FYI Rega makes spacers that may be able to help, but in general they say VTA doesn't impact their tables unless the cartridge is so deep that the back of it hits the record when playing. I think the whole VTA thing is overhyped as the cantilever and suspension on cartridges are there so the stylus fits nicely within the grooves if the arm and cartridge are of high quality. In general, I think Rega arms are simple to work with and provide great value for the world of table/arm combos of $5K or less. I heard that SME is no longer selling arms on a stand alone basis. |
@dover @ atmasphere That there are resonances in the SME V armwand and that these can be dealt with through the application of some external damping material is confirmed by others, notably the former contributor to this website (and turntable designer) 'DerTonarm'. Also, some years ago on the Vinyl Asylum the contributor ‘dice45' put forward a similar idea of how this could be achieved. The main idea is that you apply some damping material - thinly rolled out blu tack - to the area where the armwand widens, near the bearings. Dice45 also applied the same material inside the headshell, in the hollowed out area. Another possibility is to use a specialised product, Marigo Labs tuning dots (very small self-adhesive dots made of damping material and specially designed for use on arms). I have tried both of these over long periods, and have certainly had the impression that both do something (the blu tack solution is ugly, even if you manage to find a black version). I still have the Marigo Labs dots in place, but frankly so much time has gone past that I have no clear recollection of what effect the resonances had on the sound before (I am reluctant to remove the dots to see, as I fear that the adhesive might not work any longer). Does either of you have a clear idea of what the resonances do that is detrimental to the overall sound? Regarding the problem of VTA setting, I too have found it difficult to regulate arm height in repeatable fashion, as well as locking the arm column again so that it is perpendicular and not cranked. I have worked out a way around this problem: it involves making a pair of blocks that you place under each side of the arm (the VTA screw has to be removed to allow this) so as to give the desired height when the arm is lowered onto them. The best way to make these blocks is to buy a number of rectangular rubber erasers (Staedtler makes a suitable one that is 1cm high) and you then find some thin but stiff card (clothing labels are quite good for this) and cut pieces to the same size as the eraser. You can then progressively pile cards on top of the erasers on each side - the same number on each side, obviously - until you reach the optimal arm height. If you then glue the cards and eraser together you have a repeatable way of setting arm height for the cartridge in question. Best regards, Peter |
@OP: as a ’one arm’ solution I would include Audiocraft AC-3300/4400 on your list. It offers a wide choice of interchangeable armpipes (including ones specifically dedicated to EMT and SPU ’A’ types), various counterweights as well as adjustable oil damping. So far there hasn’t been one cartridge that didn’t shine in that arm. |
Ralph, when I say killed the sound, in my experience the use of fluid damping on the SME V reduced speed and coherency. Similar with the analog survival damping. In my experience soft materials tend to store energy, but dont disspate it cleanly like for example carbon fibre or M2052. You tend to get backward reflections back into the cartridge at the junction of each change in material.@dover The nature of the material in the Sumiko kit allows it to damp the arm tube so there is less energy in it (the vibration is converted to a very slight amount of heat); 'talk back' to the cartridge has been reduced, IOW less resonance. Warren Gehl of ARC originally developed the Analog Survival Kit for Sumiko while he was employed in vibration control for a firm in California about 25 years ago or so. I've known Warren since the late 1970s (we've had plenty of conversation about this topic; I was using prototypes prior to his release of the product to Sumiko). He also developed a platter pad that is spectacular at controlling resonance in the LP itself. I feel lucky to own one; he can't make them anymore since OSHA would never allow it. If you read both of these comments, first mine and then yours, you'll see that they are saying exactly the same thing, except for the part that says 'This doesn't make sense'. So I'm thinking you misread my comment. Otherwise we seem to be on the same page here.Adding the Analog Survival Kit increased the mass of the arm. For this reason it limited the cartridges that worked to ones that had lower compliance. |
I can't make comparisons to a lot of the pricey tonearms mentioned in this post but I think the Victor UA-7045 and UA-7082 tonearms have a lot to offer and they have been mentioned by at least two regular posters in this forum. I have both of these arms and can't say enough about the build quality and engineering that went into them. What really sets those arms apart from a lot of other arms is the ease of adjustments, both VTA and anti skate can be adjusted "on the fly" without worry of disturbing the arm when playing. They also have detachable headshells that are held rigidly in place by a locking clamp collar, uses any standard SME type headshell. Go to the Vinyl Engine database and pull up the owners manual for a full description of the engineering behind this tonearm. BillWojo |
@dover - the next generation of Rega arms, especially the higher end ones (RB880, 2000- now 3000) have dramatic improvements. The 2000 came out with the RP10, which has since been replaced with the P10, so it has been a while since the new design and build was introduced. I can speak first hand as I had a P5 with the stock arm, the RB700, which was very good, and at the advice of my friendly neighborhood Rega dealer who was adamant about the new arm improvements and guaranteed I would be blown away or he’d give me my money back for 3 months, I took him up on it and was absolutely blown away. As a matter of fact, I subsequently traded the P5 for the P8 and although it was a modest improvement, it was not nearly the discovery of the RB880. It has better cables and plinth and platter, and the plug in to the PSU is better, and the dust cover is much more convenient to remove while playing, so I don’t regret it, even though the price difference was more than the arm difference. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the RB880 or RB3000. I’ve been told it is not worth the difference for me to upgrade the 880 to the 3000 which I was considering. I think a $4K arm might be worth to consider for that level of expenditure, but for arms below that, Rega delivers more value for the buck. |
@atmasphere Nor me :) But it was obvious that the arm tube had resonance. If removing that 'killed the sound' clearly you have bigger fish to fry. Ralph, when I say killed the sound, in my experience the use of fluid damping on the SME V reduced speed and coherency. Similar with the analog survival damping. In my experience soft materials tend to store energy, but dont disspate it cleanly like for example carbon fibre or M2052. You tend to get backward reflections back into the cartridge at the junction of each change in material. The best damping if you must, is to use materials that have similar properties, but slightly different propagation speeds, example being the bimetallic damping Jonathan Carr uses in his top Lyra's. There is also the option of mechanical damping - an example being the Naim Aro where the bearing design and mass distribution are used to provide damping - this is articulated in Martin Colloms review of the Aro. When the SME V came out the thing that set it apart from most pivoted arms of the day was an organic midrange that appeared to be seamless, cut from one cloth, from mid bass to lower treble. Personally I still preferred the Sumiko MDC800. Most criticism is that it is boring, I put this down to cartridge selection - as I said low compliance cartridges/Koetsu's not so good. Another consideration is the turntable. As I'm sure you know from experience the way arms dissipate unwanted energy can vary considerably from turntable to turntable and in particular how it is terminated, armband material, coupling to plinth etc. This can explain a lot of variance in opinion, along with cartridge matching. I would be interested to know when you dismantled the SME V and did some impulse testing on the armtube to determine the resonance issues - at what frequencies and magnitude were the resonant peaks. Adding the Analog Survival Kit increased the mass of the arm. For this reason it limited the cartridges that worked to ones that had lower compliance. This doesn't make sense, increasing the mass would help it work better with lower compliance cartridges - but for the aforementioned reasons I think its not the best option. But what worked better was to use an arm that had an arm tube that was already damped and so did not need the Sumiko kit. The Tiplanar is an example of that; switching from the SME to the Triplanar was a revelation- better in every way. I agree with this in principle, but again it depends on how the damping is achieved. What I do like about the Triplanar is the functionality - the design allows very precise set up and alignment. In my experience when I was in the business, very few top end turntables were set up optimally, probably less than 10% and thats being generous. The ease and accuracy of set up in arm designs is underrated in my view. The Kuzma 4Point is also a delight to set up, the precision and repeatability of the VTA mechanism is outstanding. VTA adjustment on the SME for example is awful as you would know, probably its archilles heel for me. |
@sokogear Rega arms - my main experience goes back RB300/RB600/RB1000. When the first RB300's came out they were touted as a great giant killer. Whilst they were excellent bang for the buck I could easily demonstrate that more expensive arm with a modest but great sounding cartridge could outperform a RB300/Koetsu combo for example. Moral of the story is that if you want to go up on cartridge, buy a great arm first. The RB1000, well built, I have seen tracking issues with Shelters in our high humidity, Benz range tracked better. When I sold my Platine Verdier I put an Audiomods arm on it at the request of the purchaser. With a modest Goldring MC I was quite surprised at the performance level - it easily despatched his SME20/V combo. In my view the Audiomods is great bang for the price, but again stick to medium complinace cartridges for best results. The VDH range tend to be medium complinace as are some of the Dynavectors along with Soundsmith MI's ( where you can select the compliance best suited ). |
@jperry - those are my thoughts as well. Over $4000 or so, I would consider other arms, and tables for that matter. The one I mentioned earlier that doesn't touch the plinth from integrity hifi (I think it's called Tru Glider) for example at $4K sounds interesting and someone posted that they loved it. @rim - my problem with VPI is their arms. I don't like unipivot and as discussed their laser printed Fat Boys sound flimsy at best - $4K is a joke. They started out making bases for Denon tables, and I wouldn't have a problem using one of their tables with a different arm. They look pretty solid. I've also heard good things about Live Origin and Well Tempered Labs but haven't heard from anyone on this discussion regarding those. |
When I distributed the SME V, it never spoke back to me.Nor me :) But it was obvious that the arm tube had resonance. If removing that 'killed the sound' clearly you have bigger fish to fry. Adding the Analog Survival Kit increased the mass of the arm. For this reason it limited the cartridges that worked to ones that had lower compliance. But what worked better was to use an arm that had an arm tube that was already damped and so did not need the Sumiko kit. The Tiplanar is an example of that; switching from the SME to the Triplanar was a revelation- better in every way. |
@sokogear Your question about Rega wasn’t addressed to me, but I have owned a 600 on a p25 turntable and a Basis branded 250? On a Basis 2100 turntable. When I replaced the 250 with a Basis Vector 3 the difference was a massive improvement. Although Mr. Conti at Basis said to expect this actually hearing the difference allowed me to understand how much a difference a tonearm can make. Based on that I think Rega is “good for the money” but not a great tonearm. Just my experience, yours may vary |
@sokogear, I got no answer from VPI for months and the moment I dared to ask for my issue at VPI forum I got attacked. I had later found out that many others have the same issues or worst with leaking and completely defective Tonearms. even the bearing of my VPI turntable had presented a premature wear but it seems that it’s normal for VPI. at the end I moved into a serious manufacturer For Harry it’s very normal to use hair driers to straighten the VPI Tonearms by sight and hands. The funny and sad fact is that at this thread earlier, he had attacked Fremer for not listed his tt at recommended components for 2020 |
@dover-you didn't mention Rega. What are your thoughts regarding them relative to their pricing of $600-$2200 (actually $1200 one, RB880 is excellent). Many tables use them as an OEM with the Moth label. You have such extensive experience, it would be good to know what could be a potential improvement if I ever got the itch. In the context of a VDH MC One-Special. @rim - and they have the nerve to charge $4K for a plastic arm that you have to worry about its straightness. |
Arms, I’ve had a few An oldy but never surpassed: Syrinx PU-2 or PU-3.I actually prefrred the PU2, musically better integrated across the spectrum, PU3 fiddly to set up optimally. I ran the SME5 for some years. It benefited greatly from the Sumiko Analog Survival kit; its arm tube had a way of ’talking back’ to the cartridge. The Sumiko kit shut that up.When I distributed the SME V, it never spoke back to me. Damping killed the sound, analog survival kit ( yes I sold these too ) killed the arm. My view is the SME V is underrated, but the issue is it does not suit lower compliance cartridges - killed Koetsu’s etc. Sounds excellent with medium compliance vdh mc’s. Graham Phantom on Micro Seiki 5000 - lumpy ill defined mid bass. Kuzma 4point11 - had great results with both Kuzma CAR50 & Ven den Hul Colibri ( even with slight mismatch on compliance/eff mass ). Surpassed both Helius Omega & Moerch DP8 on same TT. High effective mass requires careful matching. SME 3012R - musical, but ultimately coloured, imprecise through upper bass lower mid. VPI’s - mostly garbage - engineering quality is very low as has been articulated in this thread - I mean do you think that if the posters all used a hair drier before posting on the forum they would think straight - dont think so. Zeta - loved mine with koetsu’s and Deccas AFTER I had the shonky bearings replaced. Alphason HR100S - matched beautifully with Garrotised Koetsu Red - nothing else though. Tiktok - actually quite good with MM’s and medium compliance MC’s, tracked my Ikeda 9 surprisdingly well, but each one sounds different and soft bearings easily damaged. Ekos - blah There are many others I’ve fettled - Sumiko MDC800, Breuer were great with specific cartridges, many others forgotten. Arms I have kept - Eminent Technology ET2 air bearing linear tracker ( modded ) - if you want to count the chairs in the apse of a live baroque concert in a church, this is the arm for you. Unsurpassed in transparency of soundstage. FR64S with B60/silver wire - I use this with koetsu’s & my Ikeda Kiwame, superb grip and transparency with these low compliance MC’s. Naim Aro - fast and fluid I use this with my medium compliance Dynavector Karat Nova 13 freshly rebuilt for me by Dynavector. The Karat Nova in the Aro surprisingly betters the Dynavector 501, which I have rebuilt to Baerwald specs, in presenting an accurate bottom end tonality. the ARO though only excels with a narrow range of cartridges. Sounds awful with high compliance cartridges, but tracked my Ikeda 9 amazingly well despite Ikedas objections to unipivots. Dynavector 501 - starting point on my reference Final Audio VTT1 in the 80’s - very dynamic, works surprisngly well with wide range of cartridges from high compliant Shure V15vxmr through to diffcult trackers like the Decca Golds, but ultimately I prefer the above 3. At the end of the day, there is no best. Each arm has to be appraised in the context of what cartridges are used. The arm/cartridge synergy is so often disregarded on these forums, and yet in my view it is so vital in achieving the optimum outcome in terms of transparency, coherence, musicality and tracking proficiency. |
Well Harry of VPI is describing some of the 3D printed Tonearms on straightness issues better than me : quoted from VPI forums :Re: Are Audio magazine rating worth anything? by Harry » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:26 am You can call VPI and they will deal with it for you or you can do what I do and warm up the headshell and just make it straight. All 3D printing, especially when it is thin like that has a memory from when it was made. I just warm it up and make it straight with my wife's hair blower, but if you would rather have a new one contact the office.HW |
Best Tonearm I own: I love Kuzma 4P paired with Lyra Etna, Etna λ and Atlas λ. Super precise repeatable settings and ease of use. The Tonearm is built like tank. Worst Tonearms I used to own: VPI 3D 12” unipivot VPI 3D fatboy 12” Unipivot VPI 3D Fatboy 12” gimbal Reed Straightness issues, many loose parts, excessive play increased vibrations. Not reputable settings Reed 5A Average Tonearms that I used to own: SME 309 More hours UP 4 |
I had a Mission 774 which was amazing with the matching 773 cartridge and other lightweight moving coils; I had a Hadcock /Coral 777 combination and then a Zeta Sumiko Blue Point Special which was superb and even better. I now have a Pink Triangle arm with a Koetsu Jade Platinum Diamond cantilever cartridge- unbelievable. For some reason I always remember arm and cartridge together as can be seen above. |
I’ve been using the Sumiko MMT (very odd that NO ONE has mentioned this arm: it has a mythic reputation) for 35 years. Never felt the need to switch: still going strong. And the current Jelco model, at $550 or so, is a bargain. Sounds as good as arms costing 5 x’s as much or more. It’s compatible with a wide range of cartridges, except for Grado (the infamous “Grado Bounce” [aa scary as it sounds: use your imagination]). I’ve been using it with Koetsu cartridges. First the (original) black, then the Rosewood Signature, and finally the sublime Onyx. |
Such an odd & open ended topic - I’m hesitant to participate. No one has mentioned AMG. LP12 guys should take note of their 9” versions. A very capable tonearm that is not a massive affair - excellent for suspended ‘tables like my ‘64 Swiss built Thorens TD150. One of the easiest tonearms designs to dial in. The “Turbo” (marketing) versions are fashioned with thumbscrews making most tools unnecessary. Poorly executed owner’s manual (sheet). The SME Series V is my go to when I really want to get a feel for how a typical MC pickup really sounds. Really like the 11.5” Kuzma 4-Pt and 12” Stogi S and appreciate the elegant simplicity and performance of the better metal wand (Steve Lueng built) JMW unipivots which beg for Wood Bodied Benz and a gravity tilt for A/S. Yes, the Graham 2.2 is a serious contender, but a bit fiddly to setup. Much improved performance over the Original 2. Sad to see Jelco go out. Their TK850S is surprisingly good. Never played with Schröder & Reed or Fidelity Research & Ikeda or Basis Vector - all of which are held in very high esteem. |
You didn't mention a budget. For $2K and under, Rega makes the best arms for the dollar. It's not even close. RB3000 ($2200), RB880 ($1200), even the BR330 at $600 will outperform ones that are several times the cost. They also have a super expensive one made out of titanium not available for a standalone purchase that comes with their super rare/expensive Naiad that was used as the basis for their high end tables. Above that, I leave it to the big spenders who patrol AG. I know there is an interesting one for $4K that doesn't touch the plinth from Integrity HiFi in Canada. Only found out about it because I bought a Tru Lift arm lifter from them. They swear it makes any cartridge sound great. Conceptually it makes great sense to have total arm isolation with no motor or platter noise or vibration. Anyone ever try an arm totally separate from the table? |
Surely 'the best arm' is the one that best suits the cartridge that you are using and the turntable it is mounted on? The 'best arm' for a high, medium and low compliance cartridges will be different? I've had an SME V, Helius Cylene, Terminator, and RB 600, with various cartridges. I now have an Ikeda CR 407 with and Ikeda 'Kai' mounted on a Merrill Williams 101.2, which is my favourite combination, to date. |
www.designbuildlisten.com/ The Wand Plus 10.3 wrangled onto a 1980's Linn Sondek |
