@dardemm I have that unit and the CSPort IME1. Both work great. The SPI is not as convenient to place, you’ll have to rig something up to reach platter. The base is odd too with it resting only on those two thin metal rails you see. Also prefer the thin DC cable of the CSPort compared to the thick somewhat unruly AC cable of the SPI.
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I own the ION-001. There’s an issue with keeping it on during playback - it degrades the sound. It’s not a huge difference, but once you hear it, you cannot “unhear” it. Highs are rolled-off and the sound loses energy, sounding a bit “muddy”. It may not be discernible on all systems, but on my very high end system, it’s obvious. It’s therefore not a good idea in all cases, to keep an ionizer on during playback. |
I threw the Hudson anti stat brush across the room. That’s the second one. What a waste of time. Yes the carbon fibers in it are conductive and with a meter I checked continuity to ground through them. It's a high resistance but there is a path. I would love to see a video of them actually working with the toilet paper attraction test or meter test.. Mine added static. Vinyl attracts electrons. A grounded brush is like an infinite supply of them. So back to just the Milty. And the problem with the silicon roller is that it also adds static. So if you do it while the record is on the platter you then have to take it off again to blast with the Milty. So it might be back to the carbon fiber anti stat brush after the album is de-statted and on the platter, or... I’m actually wondering about plain ’ol compressed air. Use the Milty with album in hand. Place on turntable....blow off fibers and the loose stuff with compressed air somehow. Maybe a small compressed air can that can be recharged easily. No need to touch the album after a cleaning. I don’t trust that brushes won’t move crud into the grooves from the flats, making things worse and no need to antistat after the Milty or similar.
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@dogberry if you are referring to the Hudson Hifi anti static brush, it is indeed grounded. And there is a dark colored bristle that I suspect is conductive. @ossicle2brain the only other adjustment I can think to experiment with is the weight adjustment for the brush. |
@ossicle2brain adding static? That’s unfortunate. I attached the ground lead to my phono and it works great. Then again my platter is definitely not steel. I’ve got a Michell Gyrodec SE. My tonearm (SME M2 9R) is also grounded to phono. Antins’ post above references an article by James Kogen that discusses sources of static — Pg 44 (of 124). The stylus does not appear to be a culprit. |
I check static by hanging some toilet paper and seeing how the record pulls it or not. The zerostat will neutralize the record but it does seem that some static builds up again while playing. Makes sense to me that it's from the stylus. And I like using those silicon rollers to remove dust but that action also causes static. I don't like those antistat brushes. I think they push stuff into the grooves.
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rhg3109 posts FWIW, I’ve had great luck eliminating static with this:
I’m glad it worked for you because mine is adding static. I’ve tried grounding to various spots and even tried a 9V battery inline to add some positive, ( thought it would be an idea that would make me rich LOL) but the action of the brush is adding static I really want it to work because it works great to remove dust before it hits the stylus.
My next experiment will involve a carbon fiber mat and grounding the platter with a central conductor ball bearing mounted in the spindle bearing housing. As it is now my platter assembly has no path to ground. I’ll bet that most do not. My platter is steel. Might not be possible with acrylic platters. |
1) Here: So now I’m wondering why I need the Acaia or a Destat III or etc. 2)I can play an LP that has zero on the meter and after the side is done, the reading is way up. I don't remember the exact numbers. 3) I find that every time I play an lp, the static goes up. Perhaps it has something to do with the belt drive on the VPI? I just want to eliminate it. |
(1) Who said anything about the Destat? (2) I don’t own a Destat, used the plain old Zerostat in my experiment described above, but Benjie’s post is in disagreement with your claim (Benjie is here replying to someone else, but his post does contradict your claim.): "When I treat a record with the Destat and measure the static charge on the record surface it is 0.00, surface is neutral. After playing the record I measure the surface again while the record is still on the turntable and I get a reading of 0.00 to 0.04 across the record. Which shows that the record surface is still static free after playing that side of the record. 0.04 is such a small amount you would never hear it through your system. I have repeated this process many times and with many different records. We seem to have very different outcomes using the same process." (3) There seems to be a consensus based on more careful experiments that playing the LP per se is not the cause of static charge build-up. However, it could be that when we step up to either flip the LP or replace it with another LP, we transfer charge from our body to the LP, which would erroneously support the notion that the stylus rubbing on vinyl causes static charge. And also, discharging one surface of the LP does nothing to any charge on its opposite side. So when you do flip an LP, that charge is now on the new playing surface. |
I procrastinated on the Acaia, but I did buy an FMX003 static charge meter sold on eBay for $175. First experiment was to rip an LP out of its sleeve as rapidly as possible. Charge on the LP surface read -11kV. I then zapped the LP with my 50 year old Zerostat. This reduced the charge to about -0.25kV. So now I’m wondering why I need the Acaia or a Destat III or etc. |
James H. Kogen, Phonograph Reproduction 1978, Audio Magazine May 1978, Audio-1978-05.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) goes into some detail on static; what causes it and what does not – the needle in the groove was not a source of static. |
Yes, it makes sense until actual data reveal it is not happening. Which we have first from Shure Corporation who wrote a paper on the mechanism of static charge on LPs where they reported their own experiments that showed no evidence to support the notion that friction between stylus tip and groove causes charge accumulation, and second from one of the responders to this thread who measured static charge on his LPs before vs after play, using a quality meter to do so. He also found no difference, comparing before vs after. So maybe you want to consider our data incomplete, but I tend toward believing that the data we do have say the idea is wrong. |
I have a question about your findings using the Destat III on records. You stated that after pre-treating with the Destat III and playing the record on your turntable the effects only last about 5 to 10 minutes. How were you able to determine that? Did you measure the static charge before and after play? The reason I ask this is because my findings are totally different. When I treat a record with the Destat and measure the static charge on the record surface it is 0.00, surface is neutral. After playing the record I measure the surface again while the record is still on the turntable and I get a reading of 0.00 to 0.04 across the record. Which shows that the record surface is still static free after playing that side of the record. 0.04 is such a small amount you would never hear it through your system. I have repeated this process many times and with many different records. We seem to have very different outcomes using the same process. Hey if you would like to get rid of those doorstops for free I will take them ! |
Benji, thank you for answering my questions, and I don’t see where I was confused. The questions I asked were based on my understanding of your original post. Many people have claimed in the past that the act of the diamond stylus rubbing against the groove is a major cause of the electrostatic charge accumulating. In fact, if you look at the websites for these very expensive devices we have been discussing, that notion perpetuated .. Many years ago, the Shura corporation did a fairly scientific controlled study of static charge on records, and they concluded that friction between the Stylus and the groove is not a major cause of static accumulation. Your results are completely consistent with those of the Shure corporation. So that’s very interesting. And that’s what I wanted to know. My opening statement that you were” confusing us with actual data “ was meant to be facetious. Most claims made here are pure speculation or personal opinion. You contributed real information that you acquired using one of the best handheld meters to do the job. |
Sorry I am confusing you, let me try again. I am going to just get an album out of my collection at random and perform all of the step listed here. Placing the record right out of the sleeve (anti-static) onto the turntable give a reading of 4.0 to 2.0 across the record when measured with the Simco. Using the Destat with the record on the platter drops the static reading down to 1.6 to .04 across the record. No matter how many times I use the Destat I can never get the record to neutral 0.00 when the record is on the platter. Holding the record in my hand and using the Destat the record drops from the initial reading of 4.0 to 2.0 across the record to neutral 0.00, static charge no longer is measured on the record surface. Next placing the record on the turntable and taking another reading the record is still neutral 0.00. So placing the record on the platter does not introduce any static charge back on to the record. I play the record all the way through to the end and take another reading and I get anywhere from 0.00 to 0.04 across the record. So playing the album only produced a small amount of static back on to the record surface. Now here is the crazy part. When I remove the album from the turntable and take another reading with the record in my hand the static charge is back to its original reading of 4.0 to 2.0, give or take a few points but basically it has returned to its original static charged state. I would be interested in how much static returns to the record surface when using the DS Audio ION-001 Vinyl ionizer or the CS Port Static Eliminator IME1 upon removing the record from the platter. I’ll bet the static charge is back. |
Benjie, you’re confusing us with actual data. I’ve been stewing on the question of whether or not to buy that Simco that you own and which I agree could settle all these questions. After nulling the charge in a hand held record, does charge reappear when you then place it on the platter? Does charge increase from baseline after play? Thanks for casting some light on the subject. One reason for interest in other products that might work is the $350 cost of the Furutech. |
I have been using static eliminator products for many years, starting with the Milty ZeroStat back in the early 80's. I use the Furutech Destat that I purchased back in 2007 which is the first generation of the product. It has worked flawlessly for 15 yrs. When used properly the surface of a record will become neutral, no static charge present. There seems to be some confusion on how to use the Destat. You can not place the record on your turntable and then use the Destat. You must hold the record in your hand and then use the Destat. I do 2 revolutions around the record and only on the side that I am going to play. Doing the both sides at the same time will not better your results. When you flip the record over to play the other side, you will still have to use the Destat again to neutralize that side of the record. To validate the process, I use a Simco FMX-004 Electrostatic Field Meter Static Tester. Placing the record on the turntable then using the Destat, static charge is still present on the surface. It can be anywhere from 15 to .10 depending on the record. Point being there is still static present on the record surface. If you hold the record in your hand and then use the Destat, the record surface will become totally neutral, no static charge present on the record surface. Using the Simco the meter reads 0.00 across the whole record. This is the same for every record that I do with the Destat, it is consistent and repeatable. I am a little confused when people state that some other product works better than the Destat, how? You can not get any better than neutral. The record surface can not be more neutral. So I am still trying to figure that one out. Just for the record I think the Milty ZeroStat is a great product but I never got the record surface to be neutral with the Milty ZeroStat. It worked to reduce static on the surface but there was still some static present. After playing a record, I measured to see how much static was now on the surface, it would vary from record to record but it would range from 2.0 to .10. So yes, some static did return to the surface but mainly because of the stylus moving through the grooves. That is a small amount of static which is easy to remove with the Destat. |
If you ever stumble on one of these, get it. Makes a Destat act like the 90 lb. guy next to a sumo... With a fresh C cell, it'll bite hard enough to surprise and drop it....which is why only spouse and self handle it. Not made anymore, or I've not noticed any here in the states since bought back in the mid '80s'. Another thing to pry out of my dead hands...;) |
Actual science suggests that the static charge between the LP surface and the platter is unaffected by discharging the playing surface and quickly migrates to distribute over both sides, when you flip the LP to play side 2. This suggests you need to discharge both sides, one exposed surface at a time. |
There's an obvious effect that the Destat III has in letting a rocket blower remove dust that otherwise won't blow off. I'm not aware of hearing static pops one way or the other, so I do this just my stylus's sake. There is something unclear to me though, and the Destat III comes with rudimentary instructions. Is there any benefit to repeating it on the second side? I don't think there is, but static electricity is like black magic to me. If I blast one side with (I think) negative ions am I just creating a positive charge on the other side? |
@lewm I saw the Acaia release this last week and it seems awesome. I have a big problem with chaff clinging in my Baratza grinder and will be picking up the Ion Beam. I will definitely be trying it with my turntable to see if there's any benefit. Acaia make great products and I own a few of them and highly recommend them. |
Antinn, I haven’t taken the time to look at your references but there are two types of these devices, so far as I can tell. One type works via electrostatic discharge. That’s the type that produces ozone. Humans should not be in the room when they’re operating . The other type is an ion generator which doesn’t create ozone, at least not to an appreciable degree. I believe the devices we’ve been discussing fall into the latter category, save possibly for that plasma lighter. But it would be benign most likely due to its low power, very local effect, and brief period of activation. |
lewn you are exactly correct. I’ve been in and out of the audio business during my career and have worked for a few big name audio companies. I’ve seen companies do exactly what you are saying. Even to the point of buying a cheap ready made product, changing it slightly, putting it in a fancy case and calling it an “Audio” product and charging 10 times what it originally cost. That’s why after looking at a few things I thought geez, I can make one of these or just buy something ready made cheap. And yes I did see the devices you mentioned. |
Industry uses ionizers extensively for electrostatic discharge (EDS) control - here is a very basic description - Technical Guide - STATIC REMOVERS (IONIZERS) (panasonic.biz). There are many compact bench top ionizers available such as AC powered TB-3043.pdf (descoindustries.com) and DC powered 2020-1j-p16p (staticclean.com). The fans in low speed are generally about 40-45dB, there may be quieter ones. These blower units tend to have a pretty good reach as shown in the literature, but the neutralization time with distance as shown in the literature. Ionizers can produce highly toxic ozone, the reputable one will specify an ozone limit such as <0.05ppm. There are lower cost Chinese knock-offs, user beware. |
Harpo, If you google "positive ion generator", you will note that they all also produce negative ions, and you can find on both eBay and Amazon simple devices that appear to produce positive ions on one lead and negative ions on another, usually denoted by white and black leads, respectively. (On the other hand, you can also find devices that look exactly the same but produce negative ions only.) These cost $30 or even less, about the size of a small inductor or box-shaped capacitor. The problem for most of us would be how to implement the module to harness its output. (On the input side, you can use 12VDC or 120VAC. It seems to simple to be real, but take a look, and you may find a way to create something useful for very low $$$, |
There is a thread of sorts at WBF about using plasma lighters to eliminate static. It is a plasma field and you hold it above the surface 1.8 inch. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/record-brushes.34195/page-2#post-772318 |
I’ve usually heard good things about the Destat 3 but too expensive for me. I’m a retired tube electronics tech (mostly tube anyway) and on a tight budget. Have built most of my equipment or at least modded it. So looking for a cheap way to accomplish this. The Ion Beam sounds pretty good and mountable but still $150. Wondering if a simple small negative ion generator like this might work. It also is not AC powered so could be near the turntable and only $60. Maybe could be mounted on the turntable frame on the opposite side away from the phono cartridge and pointing towards the record. Anyone has ideas on this? |
“It’s not good to run an ionizer continuously…” That cautionary note applies only to devices that generate ozone. The devices we’ve mentioned so far don’t produce ozone. On second thought, that plasma igniter might produce a tiny amount of ozone, but you’d not run it constantly, and the amount of ozone produced would be trivial. |