And I don’t see the need to have a deionizer blowing on the LP during play, because I’m convinced that friction between stylus and groove does not cause static charge, so just treat the LP before playing and be done with it.
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(1) Who said anything about the Destat?
(2) I don’t own a Destat, used the plain old Zerostat in my experiment described above, but Benjie’s post is in disagreement with your claim (Benjie is here replying to someone else, but his post does contradict your claim.): "When I treat a record with the Destat and measure the static charge on the record surface it is 0.00, surface is neutral. After playing the record I measure the surface again while the record is still on the turntable and I get a reading of 0.00 to 0.04 across the record. Which shows that the record surface is still static free after playing that side of the record. 0.04 is such a small amount you would never hear it through your system. I have repeated this process many times and with many different records. We seem to have very different outcomes using the same process."
(3) There seems to be a consensus based on more careful experiments that playing the LP per se is not the cause of static charge build-up. However, it could be that when we step up to either flip the LP or replace it with another LP, we transfer charge from our body to the LP, which would erroneously support the notion that the stylus rubbing on vinyl causes static charge. And also, discharging one surface of the LP does nothing to any charge on its opposite side. So when you do flip an LP, that charge is now on the new playing surface.
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I procrastinated on the Acaia, but I did buy an FMX003 static charge meter sold on eBay for $175. First experiment was to rip an LP out of its sleeve as rapidly as possible. Charge on the LP surface read -11kV. I then zapped the LP with my 50 year old Zerostat. This reduced the charge to about -0.25kV. So now I’m wondering why I need the Acaia or a Destat III or etc.
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Yes, it makes sense until actual data reveal it is not happening. Which we have first from Shure Corporation who wrote a paper on the mechanism of static charge on LPs where they reported their own experiments that showed no evidence to support the notion that friction between stylus tip and groove causes charge accumulation, and second from one of the responders to this thread who measured static charge on his LPs before vs after play, using a quality meter to do so. He also found no difference, comparing before vs after. So maybe you want to consider our data incomplete, but I tend toward believing that the data we do have say the idea is wrong.
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The ad for CC Port says “static electricity is caused by cartridge friction.” So far as can be determined by a search for actual data, that’s incorrect. DS Audio make the same claim in their ad copy. Doesn’t matter if both products perform, but it’s good to seek a valid hypothesis.
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Lance, in your unit, does it have plates inside that you have to clean periodically?
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Benji, thank you for answering my questions, and I don’t see where I was confused. The questions I asked were based on my understanding of your original post. Many people have claimed in the past that the act of the diamond stylus rubbing against the groove is a major cause of the electrostatic charge accumulating. In fact, if you look at the websites for these very expensive devices we have been discussing, that notion perpetuated .. Many years ago, the Shura corporation did a fairly scientific controlled study of static charge on records, and they concluded that friction between the Stylus and the groove is not a major cause of static accumulation. Your results are completely consistent with those of the Shure corporation. So that’s very interesting. And that’s what I wanted to know. My opening statement that you were” confusing us with actual data “ was meant to be facetious. Most claims made here are pure speculation or personal opinion. You contributed real information that you acquired using one of the best handheld meters to do the job.
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Benjie, you’re confusing us with actual data. I’ve been stewing on the question of whether or not to buy that Simco that you own and which I agree could settle all these questions. After nulling the charge in a hand held record, does charge reappear when you then place it on the platter? Does charge increase from baseline after play? Thanks for casting some light on the subject.
One reason for interest in other products that might work is the $350 cost of the Furutech.
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Jwall, my fallback position on the Acaia is that if it doesn’t work in my listening room, I can use it with our burr coffee grinder.
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Actual science suggests that the static charge between the LP surface and the platter is unaffected by discharging the playing surface and quickly migrates to distribute over both sides, when you flip the LP to play side 2. This suggests you need to discharge both sides, one exposed surface at a time.
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Antinn, I haven’t taken the time to look at your references but there are two types of these devices, so far as I can tell. One type works via electrostatic discharge. That’s the type that produces ozone. Humans should not be in the room when they’re operating . The other type is an ion generator which doesn’t create ozone, at least not to an appreciable degree. I believe the devices we’ve been discussing fall into the latter category, save possibly for that plasma lighter. But it would be benign most likely due to its low power, very local effect, and brief period of activation.
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I forgot to add that I would bet several of the expensive ionizers, if stripped of the cosmetics, would turn out to have a heart consisting of one of those $30 devices you can find on eBay or Amazon.
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Harpo, If you google "positive ion generator", you will note that they all also produce negative ions, and you can find on both eBay and Amazon simple devices that appear to produce positive ions on one lead and negative ions on another, usually denoted by white and black leads, respectively. (On the other hand, you can also find devices that look exactly the same but produce negative ions only.) These cost $30 or even less, about the size of a small inductor or box-shaped capacitor. The problem for most of us would be how to implement the module to harness its output. (On the input side, you can use 12VDC or 120VAC. It seems to simple to be real, but take a look, and you may find a way to create something useful for very low $$$,
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“It’s not good to run an ionizer continuously…”
That cautionary note applies only to devices that generate ozone. The devices we’ve mentioned so far don’t produce ozone.
On second thought, that plasma igniter might produce a tiny amount of ozone, but you’d not run it constantly, and the amount of ozone produced would be trivial.
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In that device, what keeps the positive and negative ions in the air flow from combining with each other before excess charge of either polarity that may reside on the target can be neutralized?
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Poor man's CS Port IME-1/DS Audio Ion-001?
https://dailycoffeenews.com/2023/04/13/acaia-unveiling-a-grinder-static-neutralizer-called-the-ion-beam/
As the article states, this product will be introduced next week at a coffee makers show in Oregon. To sell for $150. Since vinyl is said to accumulate electrons and thus to develop a negative charge on the surface of an LP, I wonder why the DS Audio is designed to secrete both positive and negative ions. Seems you could get by with only positive ions (to neutralize negative charge on the LP). My brief attempt to research the subject of ion generators suggests that positive ion generators also make negative ions, en passant. And there are very few such products on the commercial market. Whereas one can buy negative ion generators by the boatload and for low to high dollars. for room air cleanup.
If I were to purchase the item described above, I would point the positive ion emitting end at the LP surface during play. The design would seem to permit that.
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