Vinyl on NAD M10 lower volume

I am curious.  I picked up an M10 a short while ago knowing that the analog inputs are converted to digital.  I can’t however find if it is at 16/44, 16/48, 24/192...does anyone have a source with a definitive answer?  Thanks.

As many others have said, it's just how these things behave. I experience the exact same phenomenon on my NAD M33; streaming music (which if we're being technical is the streamer/DAC baked into our units) has lot of output at volume level 50(ish) and when I switch to the Phono input, I usually bring it up to 65-70. There's nothing wrong with your setup!

All depends on the gain in phono preamp, assuming it is adjustable. Always best to go with a separate phone preamp for more flexibility. All in one box is a compromise most always.

I am glad crustycoot is familiar with the device. Yes, many preamps have a “trim level” or trim control to match levels, and fortunately it sounds like the M10 does. You are in luck. Enjoy the music. 

The volume level of vinyl is very dependent on a lot of things the gain of the phono stage, the output of the cartridge, and the gain of the line stage. The turntable should be more loud than a tuner or tape deck but will never be as loud as a digital source unless you have too much phono stage gain but then you will hear distortion in your records because the gain is too high.

I believe the M10 has a preset function within BluOS. That should mean you can create selections of input source and volume setting to level the perceived change when switching from phono (coming in on Line 1 or 2) to Tidal or whatever. Non-problem solved! You just have to change input using your custom presets instead of from the input list in the “hamburger menu”. 

The output on that cartridge is above the average of most mm cartridges. You will have to get used to the volume change. Just remember to turn down the volume when switching from the phono !

I thinks it’s the Elys 2:

Output6.8 - 7.2mV

Makes me wonder what cartridge you’re using. I don’t have a volume problem when switching from phono source to digital. Occasionally I have LPs recorded at lower levels than others. 5 mV is an average cartridge output. What is your cartridge output?

I am not sure. It’s the standard one that comes with the Rega Planar 3.

Average? What is the meaning of that?
I have an Ort @ 2.0, an AT @ 4.0, an AQ @ 2.2 and a Vessel @ 2.5. 
I can match them within 2dB.
With presets on the phono preamp.

Makes me wonder what cartridge you’re using. I don’t have a volume problem when switching from phono source to digital. Occasionally I have LPs recorded at lower levels than others. 5 mV is an average cartridge output. What is your cartridge output?

Get a phono pre with adjustable gain and you can match most any cart output. ADC? good luck finding one since Schitt and others stopped selling them. Whatever could be you possibly want one for?
Turn the DAC down. If you can't do that, live with it.

This must be a record, no condescending, rude responses from the usual suspects!  Yet.

just underlining what has already been said: its normal. The phono stage has to guess as to the cartridge’s output level. hey will pretty much NEVER match. But why do you really care? turn up (and down) the volume - unless it is so dramatic as to be dangerous to your ears or speakers or ????

There might be a gain adjustment for your phono stage. Mine all did (although it required unplugging the module and sending it back -- or having a good tech change 4 resistors).

Finally you could likely have a voltage divider placed on the DAC/line level signal to bring it down to the phono level.

Seems much ado about nothing. All the other options (adding components) have real, measurable, audible, costs / distortions asociated.  A level off my 6 dB has essentially none.

G

If it still bothers you, you can get a McIntosh integrated. You have the ability to adjust the individual levels on all your inputs, phono included, so all the levels match.

I did not have a good feeling on messing around with an ADC converter, so happy with your clear answers in this regard! 

As for just living with the inconvenience of turning up the volume, I sure can. I just wondered if also the sound quality of vinyl playback can be improved. Because of the change in volume, it first appeared that the sound quality of streaming was better than vinyl playback. Now I am not so sure anymore. It might be just the volume. 

However, I will do a lot more listening first as you pointed out clearly that I might not have a problem at all! :-)

Many thanks all for your input.  

As @cleeds said, you don't really have any problem to solve, just an inconvenience that you need to turn down the volume when you switch from CD/Digital to your TT input.

The output voltage of your cartridge and the gain in the phono pre-amp will affect the relative position of your volume control. If you want to decrease the volume setting, to better match the volume position of your streamer, when listening to vinyl, you can either replace the cartridge with one that has higher output, or you can replace the phono pre-amp with one that has more gain. Or, you can do nothing (what I would recommend) and just live with it. The relative volume position is likely irrelevant to sound quality and is just an inconvenience.

@remmy 

What I was thinking is connecting the phono preamp to an external ADC converter and then connecting this to the digital input of the M10. Do you guys think this is worth looking into?

Absolutely not. Don't stick anything unnecessary between your analog setup and your pre-amp/integrated.

+2 @cleeds.

There is a 15dB difference between analog vs digital on my Accuphase Integrated which has a internal phono. I’ve gotten used to it when I am switching inputs. I know it’s a PITA :-)

@reubent made an excellent point as well. Keep in mind if you go with higher gain phono stage, you’re also going to increase ‘noise’ with low output cart unless you switch to higher output cart. Even then I doubt you will have exact level match between the two formats.

With your idea of ADC, you are now relying on two separate conversions of a already sensitive signal that’s prone to noise and distortion. I can’t even imagine what’s that going to sound like after the two conversions.....I hate to say it but you might as well give up on Vinyl and stick with digital...lol!

My suggestion would be to keep the analog signal path short n sweet! May be invest in a high quality integrated with internal phono stage like Luxman or Accuphase and use a Node 2i with external DAC for your digital. 
What do you listen to more, analog or digital?

The Schiit Mani ($129) might be a better sounding phono stage than the Rega. 

+1 cleeds! Well stated!

You really don't have any problem - the position of the volume control is irrelevant. Your sources simply have different output levels.

Thanks both for your response. You seem not to agree. 

Youtuber Tarun (A British Audophile) (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X562tyZPgRQ&t=8s) pointed out that this might have something to do with the analogue input on the M10, which he thinks is mediocre. 

He believes it might be caused by the analogue to digital conversion in the M10. Therefore I thought an external ADC (so not a DAC but other way around) would maybe help. 

I would then still make use of the DAC inside the M10, but the input will be digital instead of analogue. 

What I was thinking is connecting the phono preamp to an external ADC converter and then connecting this to the digital input of the M10. Do you guys think this is worth looking into?

As this is a hassle with unclear results I would much prefer do something 'simple' as upgrading the preamp/phono stage. Any tips on beter preamps then the Rega fono mini? 

It all depends on the output of your phono cartridge and the amount of gain in your phono pre-amp. A cartridge with higher output, or a phono stage with more gain, will increase the relative volume when you play LPs.

Ditto to adding an outboard DAC! Why bother because it will still have a different voltage output compared to streaming. The DAC in the M10 is excellent and adding a new DAC is a sideways move at best - and a waste of money!

You hear a difference between phono and streaming because they have different output levels. I hear the same difference in volume when I switch between phono and tuner and CD on my preamp. Different sources most often have different output voltages. Changing to a different phono stage won't help. Learn to live with it!