Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?

I don't have charts for the other Victors yet but here is a video of the TT-81 under the Timeline with three arms going on and off and showing no deviation of the laser on the wall mark.
Based on this evidence and the fact that the TT-81 employs the identical forward and backward speed monitoring of the TT-101....I believe the Feikert figures would be similar.

Well, that is interesting. Maybe it's harder to correct speed inconsistencies of a 20 lb. platter? I don't think electronics has ever been VPI's long suit and this technology hasn't changed in the last 35 years. Harry is an old plinth builder, ironically for JVC.

You wouldn't by any chance have those charts for the TT81 and 71?
Regards,

Regards Fleib,
Here is the Feikert Speed App for the VPI Direct as published by Fremer in Stereophile and
here is the corresponding one for my TT-101.
Now all the Raw Frequency and Lowpass-Filtered Frequency figures are near identical for both turntables yet look at the General Mean Frequency comparison figures.....
The VPI Direct is 4.5 Hz above the 3150Hz Test Tone Frequency whilst the TT-101 is spot on.
Oh I know 4.5 Hz is tiny and probably irrelevant in the scheme of things BUT.....the VPI is using the most expensive and sophisticated motor for this application currently available and has 35 years of computer advanced technology to draw on yet can't match the accuracy of the 35-40 year design work of the Japanese Victor engineers...😡
But these Charts are not the most revealing part of the Feikert Speed App.
Here is the real time analogue print-out of the actual sinewave produced by the VPI Direct whilst tracking the 3150 Hz Test Tone. Ignoring the fact that it is well above the 3150 Hz frequency line.....observe the continually varying pitch of the mean frequency (a straight line is theoretically perfect) as it drops and raises tone. THIS is the real analogue graphic of the true speed-constancy performance of the test turntable.
Here is the Frequency Chart of my TT-101 and here is the long-term frequency chart of my TT-101.
Now tell me what you see and how the world of audio technology has improved over the last half century.....❓😎

10-13-15: Halcro
And let's gets real.....no-one is going to reinvent a new DD turntable which can be built in a 'garage'.
HW did it with a cogless super motor that still can't match the performance of the 30 year old Victors and can't be made for less than $30,000.

Henry, are you saying the motor can't match the Victor or the overall performance, or both? I'm curious about the basis of this statement.
Regards,

Hiho, You may be correct. I found two sources of info that conflicted with respect to the nature of the Schroeder tonearm optionally supplied with the Dohmann tt. One claimed it was the LT; the other did not.

I don't have a Minus K or its equivalent, but one of my two systems is located in my basement on concrete flooring poured over solid earth. My subjective impression is that this has amazing benefits, compared to upstairs in my living room, where I would probably notice a Minus K.

10-13-15: Lewm:
"Apparently, Mark Dohmann, one of the principles of Continuum, is now producing a tt on his own, for about $36,000 with a Schroeder LT tonearm, a relative bargain compared to the Caliburn."

That Schroeder arm is NOT an LT model. The headshell offset angle and the lack of extra pivot point at the base gave away that it is not a pivoting tangential or Linear Tracking tonearm.

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/06/thrax-audio-helix-1-ultimate-turntable.html

The Schroeder arm appears to be a carbon fiber version of the discontinued Artemis Labs TL-1 tonearm.

Lewm,
I know the whole sordid Continuum story directly from Mark.
He is an astute audio guy with a genuine love and passion for the possibilities.
He has always appreciated the damage that structure-borne feedback causes to most turntable-based systems and has been an admirer of Minus K platforms for many years.
He is in fact the Australian Importer and Distributor for Minus K so it is no surprise to see him develop a turntable with a Minus K 'built-in'...
Somewhat reinventing Linn...👹❓
And let's gets real.....no-one is going to reinvent a new DD turntable which can be built in a 'garage'.
HW did it with a cogless super motor that still can't match the performance of the 30 year old Victors and can't be made for less than $30,000...😱
Rockport came the closest with its Sirius III but it would cost $200,000 today and was somewhat let down by its tangential tonearm....

And yes....ventilation AND breathing space is a crucial requirement for most vintage DDs....but especially the Victors.

Lew, At RMAF I heard two Dohmann TT set-ups, both among the better analog presentations at the show. Dohmann incorporates a Minus K spring-based vibration platform into the plinth. A friend of mine has had great results with the Minus K with another TT. Perhaps it's worth pursuing.

Halcro, Continuum is dead. Long live Dohmann. Apparently, Mark Dohmann, one of the principles of Continuum, is now producing a tt on his own, for about $36,000 with a Schroeder LT tonearm, a relative bargain compared to the Caliburn. He is said to have developed the new tt in collaboration with several others with various types of expertise relevant to the project. But this is not a DD, nor is it vintage.

Yes, definitely provide some ventilation for a TT101.

Vent holes on say the bottom plate likely will do little since
there's no where for the heat to exit on the way up.

So an open bottom is the best I can do, even though the plinth
depth leaves none of the can exposed.

My TT-101 is open to the air on all sides, yet it does get warm to the touch. I wouldn't recommend enclosing it - perhaps drill some holes in the plinth where they wouldn't be visible?

Totem395

Heat is the curse of audio components. I would hate to think you destroyed your TT101 or any audio component for that matter due to lack of circulation. I would think it was designed with its bottom hanging out for a reason.
Regards,

I have had my Victor TT-101 mounted in an open bottom plinth
and currently am building one where it will be entirely
enclosed.
Has anyone experienced elevated temperatures where some form of venting should be built in?

All VPI DD's are now factory direct and will be personally made by me.
HW

If its now factory direct, it should be AT LEAST 1/3rd cheaper at 20K since VPI are no longer selling to retailers.
Is it now 20K?

I can't imagine on the other hand, that the market for $30,000 turntables would be sizeable.....even with the current vinyl revival.....❓
Continuum will apparently only make a Caliburn if three are ordered together..

VPI Direct only made to special order now by Harry himself
HERE
Apparently not selling so well....

Halcro
Can you expand on the comment re VPI cutback in production of their DD TT
I understood that they were selling well. It has certainly received good press.

Thanks

Lewm,
From what my Tech showed me, I'd be firstly inclined to not worry about the values you are getting when you test some of the ICs.
He showed me three or four values in the Service Manual that he said bore no relationship to those he measured.....and the ICs he measured, actually worked perfectly once the solder joint problem was remedied.
As I surmised above....with the TT-101, firstly suspect a poor solder joint before thinking 'bad' IC or transistor.

see above:

09-12-15: Banquo363
hi Lewm,

You could try talking to the guy, Dave Brown, who fixed my tt 101. He wasn't taking new clients last I checked about 6 months ago, but he might be more open now. He's already famillar with the table and has perused the manual, so that saves a lot of time. You can find his contact info here. Good luck.

He's in Oregon, so you'll need to risk shipping the table.

Halcro, You wrote, "The ICs were more difficult as many of the test figures in the Victor Service Manual didn't make sense or were simply wrong." Are you referring to the DC voltages on the pins of the ICs? I ask, because I measured some of the voltages at the pins of one IC that is suspect, and they do not at all match the predicted readings posted in the Service Manual for that IC. This led me/leads me to believe the IC may be faulty. But if my interpretation of what you wrote is correct, maybe I need not worry about it, unless or until I have further evidence of its malfunction.
Please confirm.

Banquo, where do you live, and who is your tech? Is it Bill Thalmann? Thanks.

Thanks Banquo,
That quote from your Tech is invaluable....

Hi Totem,
I think, as you say.....the most encouraging part of this exercise was the fact that every transistor of the 40 that my Tech took out and tested was perfect.
The ICs were more difficult as many of the test figures in the Victor Service Manual didn't make sense or were simply wrong.
In any case....all the original ICs were also fine.
So it bodes well for most vintage DD decks out there (which certainly have nowhere near the number nor complexity of solder joints of the TT-101) that they are a good chance of continuing their 'normal' service for the foreseeable future.
And with the seeming cutback in production of Harry's VPI Direct at $30,000....that's good news 😃

I searched through my communications with my tech when he was servicing my tt 101. Below are some pertinent quotes on the construction of the boards and how he went about fixing the table:

--There were no bad parts, just bad connections. I ended up resoldering all the feed thru eyelets, then flipping the board and removing the solder with a sucker, then resoldering them with much less solder. They all look pretty clean now. I know other companies that used the eyelet method had reliability problems. For some reason the solder cracks around the eyelets, probably related to different coefficients of thermal expansion.

--Besides I took a lot of solder out of those eyelets. The issue is the eyelets are hollow so they don’t fill with solder. The hot air insides always bubbles the solder out. I put just a bit around the edges and then cleaned the flux with acetone.

--The PCB is two sided but without plated through holes. It looks like they put eyelets in and then solder on both sides. I found one that was open but by the time I pulled the PCB it was connecting. I resoldered it and now the 45 light comes on and that speed works. The 33 light never comes on so I think there is something wrong with that flip flop. It is made of all discrete transistors so it is really hard to figure out the logic flow.

--I’m always amazed when someone would design a product as complex as this, with a high price, and not spring for a plated thru board. It boggles the mind that they would have relied upon these eyelets which are labor intensive.

Hope it helps someone.

Halcro

I think it's the number of joints and the sheer complexity of their locations plus the triple layer stack of PCBs which must flex whenever they are handled for servicing that is the real problem.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head, the hole bugaboo regarding DD IC failures {in this case} should be finally put to rest.

Thanks Shane,
Not sure if corners were cut or it's simply an aging characteristic of solder?
I think it's the number of joints and the sheer complexity of their locations plus the triple layer stack of PCBs which must flex whenever they are handled for servicing that is the real problem...?

Great new Halcro!!

But seems like those JVC techs might have been cutting corners back in the day :-)

touch wood, but the Pioneer Exclusive turntable did not have any corners cut.
I guess that is why they offered lifetime servicing for all Exclusive hifi gear.

Unfortunately the hifi gear might outlive Pioneer corporation.

There is only one way to "redo" old solder joints, and that is to completely strip and clean off ALL of the old solder from both the eyelet and the component. This is incredibly tedious and time consuming. Some folk just wave a wand, melt the original solder and then add more solder - this is a recipe for disaster.

I don't believe Lew needs my tech, Halcro--he can probably solder just as well as my tech can--what he needs is a sunnier disposition :).

Lewm: after Halcro's experience I'd call into question every solder joint, including the 70%+ you already did. I recall you saying that for days it worked fine at Thalmann's but when you took it home it acted up again. Maybe some bumpy streets cracked one or two of those delicate joints?

The symptoms you describe are more or less what I experienced. They can lead one to suspect a failed component or something complex. My tech (and Halcro's) spent a good deal of time with that mindset only to discover that the gremlins lived in the solder joints. Since the boards are too complex to try to locate the joints responsible for any particular symptom, the 'brute force' method is recommended: redo them all; it's the only way to be sure.

If it still doesn't work, well then, we can say that your skepticism was warranted.

Thanks Banquo,
My Tech originally redid every solder joint as per your specific instructions which I had passed on...😃
So this was obviously a recent break in one of these new joints.
As your Tech wisely knew.....inspecting with a magnifying glass is a wise precaution.....
I think it would benefit Lew to send his TT-101 to your Tech. He sounds like he 'knows his onions'....🔎🔍

Banquo, Between me and Bill Thalmann, I daresay about 70% of the solder joints on my TT101 have been re-done. And the ones that have not been re-done are OK by inspection, not that that means they actually are OK. Every time I fiddle with the TT101 I re-do a few perfectly good looking solder points. Eventually they all will have been re-done. Will the damned thing work then? I doubt it.

Whoa. Congratulations, Halcro. Did your tech miss a joint on the first go around? Or did an already resoldered one break anew?

When my tech redid mine, he said he had to very carefully inspect each joint with a magnifying glass.

Get your magnifying glass out, Lewm.

Ebm style answer: No we're not.

Yes Griff,
I have a really good Tech.
I don't think you have so much to worry about with the TT-81s as they are so simple compared to the TT-101.
But you're right....if ever you DO have a problem.....look at the solder joints first...😜

Halcro,

Good to hear your 101 has once again, a 'clean bill of health'! Who would of thought it could have possibly been a solder joint. You got a good tech. I will keep this information close to heart if something goes wrong with either of my TT-81's.
Regards,

Happy Days......🎁🎉
I picked up my TT-101 yesterday....all fixed 😀
After 3 months of tracking down 5 ICs from around the world (which weren't needed), and then removing and testing over 40 of the 100 or so transistors in the circuit boards (they were all good).....my Tech re-soldered all the joints in the Control Panel ICB.
Even though he had removed and re-soldered every single joint 18 months ago.....because this was an intermittent speed-related issue, he had a hunch.....and lucky he did...😜
It all appears to be working correctly. Fingers crossed..✌️

The good news for all TT-101 owners (and other vintage DD owners also) is that all the ICs and transistors he removed and tested were perfect.
It seems most of the problems with these old dames is in the ancient solder joints.
Find a good Tech and have him remove and replace all the solder joints BEFORE looking for more complex problems.
Oh....and if there is an intermittent problem (are you listening Lew)....re-do the joints again...👺

Thanks for the nice comments all :-)

I can still do the VPI based one, but the cost of the drive is quite a bit more than the Vintage Direct ones.

Pricing on the tables are $5500 for the DP3, $7500 For the DP2, $8500 for the DP6 and estimated @ $9500 for the DP8, with the standard 9" Jelco SA 750 on the DP2 and DP3, the longer SA750E on the DP6 and the DP8. We can do custom ones too, with up to 2 arms, mix and match in length brand etc. to your hearts desire.

Currently I'm making a DP6 with a Kuzma 4 point arm which will join the rest of the PBN Audio Equipment in the Ralston Listening Room and Library at the University of the South in Swanee Tennessee.

I will have all four models on display at RMAF in just a few weeks if you want to take a look at these, in my opinion, magnificent machines :-)

Good Listeniogn

Peter

PBN, very nice tt's.

Pryso, you are correct the typical 10.5" VPI base is cantilevered so it will not work to replace JVC 10", not enough clearance. What I had in mind was the first generation VPI Classic that uses the same base as 9"JMW in the Scout but with a 10.5" armwand. Good catch!

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PBNaudio/Peter, thanks for the link. Very cool. You're rewriting turntable history! Time to look into the JVC QL line. :)

.

Looks nice Peter and I must say, very original.

At one time you experimented with a similar plinth and VPI DD motor. Do you offer both or find this restored Denon to be a better performer?

Hiho, Have you seen these yet ?

GrooveMaster Vintage Direct

Website has the DP3 and the DP2 online, the DP6 is complete, and now working on the redesign of the DP80 which will be the DP8 in the Vintage Direct GrooveMaster lineup. Have about 20 of various models in progress at any time.

From their maker

Peter

Hiho, your suggestion for a VPI 10.5 might not work. Remember the mounting pedestal for the VPI arms is offset from the pivot point and requires more clearance adjacent to the platter. They will not work with SP-10 Mk 2 or 3 for example with their square frame unless that is removed. I have mounted a 10.5 with my SP-15 but that frame is rounded and provides clearance.

I'm not familiar with the QL-A95 to know if it is framed.

Halcro,

With my JVC QL-F6, I use a Signet TK5Ea. The original stylus is on its last leg and needs to be replaced soon. I used to have a TK-7E but Audio Technica no longer make that kind of stylus so I sold it and I opted to for flexibility and kept the "Ea" type of body. I just reread your earlier post about the QL-A7 with the Signet TK-3Ea and coincidentally that's almost the same set up I had in my introduction to JVC! I was using a QL-7 with Signet cartridge. Fantastic sound!

Happy listening!

Here's one forum member improving his JVC QL-A75 by adding mass and damping to the plinth:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=426693

Here's one that adds a SAEC arm bracket to the stock plinth:

http://www13.plala.or.jp/mj4018/we308l2.html

.

Halcro,

I have thought of the same thing before but JVC made their integrated turntables rather hard to do that because the circuit boards are laid out all over the place and wires are like spaghetti. After some research I believe the QL-A75 is the closest to what you are talking about. It's probably the simplest construction as the top plate or chassis contains all the controls and the circuit boards are all under the top plate so making plinth cut out a lot easier. I never owned one but I have similar QL-Y55F with the electronic tonearm but the main board took up the whole width of the plinth underneath. The QL-A75 is almost top of the line and I am sure it's a great performer even with its stock tonearm, which is an old school mechanical one so that's good.

Here are some pictures from a Japanese website:

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/gt2500jzz/34155439.html

The QL-A75 is rather hard to find though. And the A-95 is even harder!

--------------------------------

Another approach is to make an armpod or island for a tonearm, preferably 12", that can just swing over to whatever table you will be using. Of course, you have to remove whatever compliant footers so it wouldn't affect VTA or geometry. Pretty much the same concept as your "nude" approach. This way, you are not affecting the resale value of your stock table. Just another thought.

.

So Hiho,

If one wanted a Victor coreless motor unit which shared the dimensions of the TT-81/101 and had all the operating controls on the platter unit itself (like the TT-101)....I assume that these are not available as 'stand-alone'?
Is there a model in your integrated list from which I could remove the motor unit as a 'drop-in' for my TT-81/101?

Great information as usual Hiho...👍
The Victor world is indeed convoluted and full of gems..
What Signet cartridge are you using?...just out of curiosity...

Regards

Halcro: "I'm not sure what you mean by "integrated turntables"?"

Integrated turntable just means a turntable comes with its own tonearm, unlike TT-101 or Technics SP-10 that allows you to use your own tonearm.

The QL-A7 qualifies as an integrated table, the same as a QL-7. It is essentially a TT71 with a semi automatic tonearm that has auto armlift at end of record and auto stop. The "A" means automatic version of the QL-7. I owned both QL-7 and QL-A7. They were my introduction to JVC turntables. Their later integrated turntables feature coreless motor that has a sound my ears are more cottoned to, such as QL-F6, QL-Y7, QL-Y55F, QL-Y5, QL-Y66F, etc... and the aforementioned flagship integrated table QL-A95.

Back to the QL-A7, the later integrated turntables are rather more complicated as they are completely automated with electronics that can adjust VTF, antiskating, damping, all on the fly with knobs on the front, like the one in the QL-Y66F. Very complicated electronically. It's great when it works right but it's a nightmare when it goes berzerk as it can kill your cartridge by applying too much tracking force by crushing the cantilever! For that reason I much prefer an old school tonearm like the one in the A7. Underneath the plinth of the Y66F, it has many ribbon cable connectors connected to the main board so it's a bit more complicated than the A7. Installing your own tonearm is doable but just have to be more careful.

The turntable section of these integrated units are very reliable, never had any problem with them. The electronic tonearms are a different story. If I can choose, I would like to have a QL-A70 as it has identical 14" platter and motor drive as the Y66F but with a more traditional tonearm. But the Y66F is more common and easier to find. Due to finance, laziness, and simplifying my life, the only table I am using these days is the QL-F6 with its stock tonearm mated with a Signet cartridge, hence my lack of participation in forums. It sounds satisfying to me. But the QL-A70 is always on my mind... I still have a beater Y66F in storage that, hmmm... I should put it into good use one day...

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Halcro: "Forgive me if I'm wrong....but I thought that only the TT-101 had the coreless motor?"

No, TT-101 is NOT the only JVC turntable that uses coreless motor. Look up some of the above models I mentioned.

I had a QL-Y7 briefly and sold it as a favor to a non-audiophile friend to replace his QL-A7 and he told immediately the sound is smoother with the same cartridge. I trust non-audiophile's ears than audiophiles, to be honest. Of course one can always argue they use different tonearms and it could be the attribute to the sound. But turntables with coreless motor that I heard have a fluid sound that I like and it's different from typical DD tables, a la Technics, almost like a belt drive but more concise and stable. That's just my own impression. YMMV.

There's a German JVC collector "JVC_graz" in some internet audio forums is very knowledgeable about all the different JVC models. Here's a picture of his collection of integrated tables.

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=106&image_id=8637&view=no_count

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Aigenga,

Halcro, get yourself either a single purpose turntable wall shelf (like the Solid Steel that I use) and spike the turntable to it, or a good stand and an isolation pad like an SRA or Symposium. I would put my naked TT-101 against any plinthed DD and be sure of a favorable outcome.

You're right of course and this is indeed a recommended method IF one has a dedicated rigid wall shelf like yours.
The problem occurs in a situation like mine where the shelf is shared and not dedicated...or where the shelf is heavily loaded because of the mass of the armpods (again like mine).
Mass-loading a shelf induces stresses within the shelf strata and these stresses (mainly the tensile ones) induce low-frequency 'noise' or vibrations in the shelf material.
A massive plinth can help absorb these vibrations without itself resonating especially if the plinth is mounted on slightly resilient feet.
A very low-mass plinth (like my steel cradle) is easier to precipitate into its resonant frequency and steel spikes do little to hinder this.
Most turntable manufacturers are aware of this structural feedback issue and attempt to combat it in various ways like mass, sprung suspension, air isolation feet etc. Rega believes a low-mass plinth (or even skeletal) is best when mounted on compliant rubber feet.
This structural feedback issue is so important that Mark Doehmann has designed his new turntable with a Minus K stand inbuilt into the plinth.

At any rate, I have been doing a lot of testing lately and, because I can do nothing about my shared shelf and its mass loading....I need to try and devise a solution to creating 'mass' for my cradle situation...👀⁉️
A tricky problem....

But the gems, as far as pure turntables are concerned, are actually in the integrated turntables such as QL-Y7, QL-Y66F, QL-70A, etc., all have coreless motor and smooth sonic.

Hiho, I'm not sure what you mean by "integrated turntables"?
The QL-A7 I bought for my son has the tonearm integrated with the table and has an electro-mechanical device integrated into the plinth which operates the armlift up and down....and also automatically lifts the arm and stops the platter at the end of the record. All without interfering with the structural integrity of the arm itself...😊

Forgive me if I'm wrong....but I thought that only the TT-101 had the coreless motor?

The best example about integrated turntable is the Lenco. Most Lenco models are integrated tables with stock tonearm but once audiophiles ditched the arm they are liberated and you can find all the creations in LencoHeaven site. I wish people start paying attention to other DD tables. Even with the Technics SL-1200MK2, people replace the stock tonearm.

.