Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

@sonicjoy - IIRC, RV designed the 2Wq to sit in the corner.  That's where I placed them, and I have never had any boominess from them.  Boy I miss what I had going on until last September! 

I also placed my 2Wq in the corner. No boominess to the sound. I actually tried to set the sub a bit more up front near the main speakers. Surprisingly the bass got more boomy and ill defined. Back to the corner it went.

@mr_m - yup.  That seems to support my recollection that the 2Wq was designed to sit in a corner.  It's actually not that surprising at all.

Richard Vandersteen recommends corner placement for 2Wq sub.

Hi enginedr1960,

     I'm glad you responded on this thread.  And thanks for reminding me that you're the other user on this forum, that I couldn't recall the user ID of, who also uses a distributed bass array system with 4 subs.Your bass system details, experiences and opinions are all valuable contributions to this discussion.

     Your custom distributed bass array system, using the DSPeaker antimode 2.0  to electronically control crossover and room correction, is a bit more complex and sophisticated than my all in one Swarm system that utilizes the sub amp's built in crossover (with my panel mains running full frequency) and precise sub positioning instead of any DSP or room correction.

     I think it's important that readers of this thread realize that very good in room bass response is attainable using either method.  Having no experience using the DSPeaker or room correction of any kind, I know I'm not qualified to declare that either method is superior.  It seems like we both have achieved excellent perceived bass responses in our individual rooms using different methods, with the only common denominator being 4 subs.  

Hi lewnskiH01,

      It's very appropriate that you mentioned Earl Gettes and his advocacy of multiple subs for achieving very good in room bass response in virtually any room.  His research and published white papers on the subject, along with the research and results of Floyd O'Toole and Todd Welti, formed the basis of my understanding and the actual performance potential of deploying multiple subs in a specific positioning method to achieve optimum bass response in any given room.  All of this supporting scientific research was crucial in my decision to buy and use the Swarm bass system in my home music and ht system. 

     However, I have the impression that the OP of this thread, bstatman, may prefer to use a more standard approach to attaining better bass response in his system such as 1 or 2 Vandersteen or Rhythmic subs.  
     If this is the case, I'd just like to say to him that I know it's still possible to achieve good bass response utilizing 1 or 2 conventional subs in his room provided he's satisfied with the good bass response being constrained to a single 'sweet spot'.  I'm certain of this because I've achieved good bass response at a specific listening position using both 1 and 2 good subs in my own and friends' systems.  

     Again, I would caution to use the positioning method I described in my second post on this thread:

1. Hookup your sub and place it at your desired listening position.
2. Play music that has good and repetitive bass.
3. Walk around your room in a systematic manner listening for an exact spot where the bass sounds the best to you.
4. Once this spot is located, reposition your sub to this exact spot.
5. To test results, sit at your designated listening position and repay the same music.
     As you would expect, bass response will be improved as additional subs are added to the room. 2 subs, properly positioned, will give better results than 1.

     In my experience, the Swarm 4 sub distributed bass array system will definitely perform better than either a 1 or 2 sub system. I perceived the 4 smaller sub Swarm system as sounding more accurate, natural, effortless and life-like for music while providing more weight, authority, impact and a bottomless quality to the bass on both music and ht.  These great bass qualities are also now perceived at all 6 seating positions in my room, not just at my single preferred listening 'sweet spot'.

      In retrospect, I believe the Swarm system has been the most significant and unmistakable upgrade I've ever made in my system.  I'll conclude my excessive praise of the distributed array concept and Swarm product by just sincerely claiming I don't think I can overstate how well they both perform.

Tim


      

Noble100 (Tim), indeed I also have Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction and keep coming back to it for his research with multiple subs. A piece of work with learnings that take time to sink in - at least for me. 

I also agree there are multiple ways to get low bass right and we are probably overloading the OP with info about multiple subs when he's considering 1 or 2. For such a case I would seriously look into a DSPeaker unit to complement the sub/s, and go with 2 subs if budget allows, but still one well integrated sub is generally better than no sub (of course depends on the speakers at play, the sub, the patience, the willingness to learn, etc).

Looks just like 2wq. with more power and a new eq. Can't wait for some reviews. Thanks for posting that.

Hi audioconnection,

     I'm a bit confused by your last post.  You state: " What you guys need to consider is the thinking outside the box.
The Sub 3 nips your particular room overload in the bud with 11 band analog room compensation No DSP processers here.
 With its unique high pass or reliving the heavy lifting of your main amp allows your whole system to improve its articulation, dramatically improving transparency and clarity.". 
     From your description, the new Sub 3 seems like a very nice powered sub  that is a worthy replacement for the now discontinued  2Qw sub. However, I'm failing to grasp why you consider the use of the new Sub 3 as an example of 'thinking outside the box'.since it seems to be a very capable sub that nevertheless would likely be classified by most knowledgeable reviewers as a conventional sub. 
      I would think you would consider, as I do, that the use of a distributed bass array system like the Swarm is a more suitable example of 'thinking outside the box' than the seemingly much more conventional Vandersteen Sub 3. 
     Could you please clarify your statement about 'thinking outside the box' and specifically to which members your comment was directed toward?

Thanks,
  Tim

I know that Richard V. recommends corner placement of the 2wq's and I have had one room that corner placement worked well in. However in my current listening room (and the previous one) the bass is not good in the corners. Every room is different and in my "particular" room there is way to much low frequency reinforcement from the corners. It over loads the room with energy. Again dealing with smaller  (and odd shaped non symmetrical) rooms is challenging. Adding to the challenge is limited placement options for multiple large boxes with wires that need to be routed somehow.  WAF comes into play here (again). The current location inboard of the 3a sig's is the best location that I have come up with so far and sounds quite good for the moment but I'm not done experimenting yet. Those new Sub 3's have my attention though. Will be keeping an eye on them.

It's all a balancing act for sure. In an ideal situation we would all have large rectangular symmetrical rooms with high ceilings, constructed of musically good sounding material (because all rooms and all material have a "sound") That would minimize the problems we encounter. We could even design room acoustic treatment into the room. Again in an ideal situation we would have  purpose designed rooms. But most of us have to live with what we have and make the best of it with our limited resources, including time. For me this is a journey and I am still heading down the road and having fun with it.
 Another thought is from a manufactures point of view. Trying to design speakers that work well in all the wide variety of rooms that their designs will be asked to sound good in must be a daunting challenge.

Have a great day!

Hi sonicjoy,

     Very good post with some good points.
    After over 40 yrs of building systems and listening to music in different homes and rooms, I definitely agree with you that every room is different, especially in bass response. 
    When installing a system,  I've recently come to the conclusion that it's best to view a sound reproduction system as 2 separate systems: a bass system and a mid-range treble/sound stage illusion system.  I think having a separate bass system as 4 subs can actually be more useful for achieving best integration and sound if you have the room space.
    The bass is the hardest to get right because the sound waves are so long that they continue to bounce/reflect off all room barriers until they run out of energy.  These sound waves eventually either crash into each other causing standing waves and typically a lack of bass at those points or they piggy-back on another reflected sound wave and cause bass reinforcement and typically exaggerated or boomy bass at these points.  
     Acoustic engineers are able to predict where sound waves will intersect based on the room dimensions, sound wave frequency, barrier material and speaker/sub location(s).
     The beauty of a properly set up distributed bass  array system of 4 or more subs is its ability to eliminate the vast majority of intersecting bass sound waves, and therefore the vast majority of bass peaks and nulls, in any given room.  This not only makes the bass sound more accurate and smoother, the bass response is this good throughout the majority of the room. 
     As you're all too aware, having a small and non-symmetrical  room only makes good bass response more difficult to attain.  I understand you have space and waf issues but I still believe a Swarm distributed bass array system is your best option for achieving state-of-the-art bass response in your room.  
      This system is not as intrusive as some may initially think.  Each sub weighs about 44 lbs., has a 1 sqft. footprint and is 28 inches tall.  Each sub is positioned with the driver facing, and about 1 inch away from, the wall.  The visible portions of each sub(sides, top and back) are made of your choice of high quality wood and actually look quite good and stylish.   Have your wife choose the wood.
      Hiding the speaker wires may be the most difficult issue if you can't run them below the floor or in the walls.

 Just my thoughts-good luck,
      Tim

@noble100 ,
I think Johnny was referring to the integrated equalizer in the new Sub 3.
As far as I know, there are no subs with equalizers incorporated.
B

nobel100
Thanks for the kind words. I bet your system sounds great. Would love to try the swarm out.

So far we seem to mostly focus on trying to solve the bass problems with loudspeakers(subs). However the other way that seems to get less attention is to fix the room.

Lately I have been hanging out at Acoustic Fields web site learning all about room treatment from the owner Dennis Foley. He has a daily youtube channel. Very interesting stuff that may make you rethink some things you think you know about acoustics in listening rooms as well as recording studios. They design room treatment systems for some of the best recording studios and high end listening rooms. But thats a whole new can of worms and a topic for a new thread.

Cheers.

Hi sonicjoy,

     Okay, thanks.  I'll check out the Acoustic Fields website.

     What's great about the Swarm system, when properly set up, is that it requires no room treatments, DSP, equalization,  or room correction mics and software.  It's really kind of magical how eliminating the vast majority of bass standing waves, and the resultant bass peaks and nulls, in the room results in such excellent bass performance throughout the entire room.  I think it's something you have to hear for yourself to really believe.  It sounds too good to be true when just verbally described.  It really took a lot of research and convincing for me to overcome my skepticism and give the distributed bass array system a try.  But I am so grateful I did and now feel like I owe it to other members to spread the word.
     I think this could be considered a type of room treatment because it prevents bass response issues at the root cause, which is likely a lot more effective than trying to compensate or room treat for the inevitable standing waves once they actually exist in the room.  Bass room treatments are typically much larger and less effective than mid-range and treble room treatments in my experience.  
Thanks,
  Tim

" noble100 ,
I think Johnny was referring to the integrated equalizer in the new Sub 3.
As far as I know, there are no subs with equalizers incorporated."

Hi gdnrbob,

     Thanks for responding for audioconnection/Johnny.  

     I understand audioconnection/Johnny is a home audio retailer with Audio Connect in N.J. that sells Vandersteen products.  He seems to be justifiably enthused about Vandersteen's soon to be available Sub Three.  It appears to be a very nice sub for $2,500.
     However, implying that incorporating a 7-band analog equalizer in the Sub Three demonstrates 'thinking outside the box' is a bit of a stretch.  The truth is that it's basically a conventional sub with an equalizer added.  
     An equalizer will not be able to eliminate, or compensate for, the vast majority of bass standing waves that inevitably result from having a single sub in a room.  With proper positioning, the best one could expect to achieve would be good bass response at the preferred listening position.  This will hold true for all single sub systems, no matter the cost or competency of the single sub employed. 
     As I understand it, analog equalizers such as those incorporated in the Sub Three and the Swarm's sub amplifier are useful mainly in compensating for any bass 'slap' present in some rooms that is caused by the reflection of bass sound waves off the floor and to the ceiling.

     The above is not just my opinion.  It is a summary of the results of years of scientific research and experiments conducted by acoustical scientists Earl Geddes, Floyd O'toole and Todd Welti, among others.  
     These experts state that deploying 2 subs will result in fewer bass standing waves and better bass response in the room.  Deploying 3 subs will further significantly reduce bass standing waves, 4 subs will eliminate the vast majority and any additional subs beyond 4 will only result in smaller incremental improvements  in bass response in any given room.
     However, utilizing 4 Vandersteen Sub Threes would cost about $10,000 while the complete Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4 sub systems both are priced at $3,000 or less and likely are less intrusive.  

     I'd imagine the Sub Threes would definitely produce more bass than the Swarm system but I'm not certain which system's bass would sound best and, if the Sub Three system did sound best, whether it sounds $7,000 better. 
 Tim     
  

@noble100 ,
I would not discount the Sub 3 until I listened to it. If Mr. V. discontinues a very good sub in favor of a new one, it must be a significant improvement.
And, Vandersteen's use of an external high pass crossover was very much 'thinking outside of the box' 30 years ago, so maybe Johnny isn't exaggerating.
I understand the concept of using multiple subs to eliminate/ reduce room nodes, but perhaps integrating an equalizer can achieve something the same. As I have not heard, nor know how they are set up, I can't say definitely how well/badly they work. 
Maybe they will be in the store when I get some time to go later this summer-along with some other Audiogon members.
Bob

@noble100 , @enginedr1960,

What's the crossover frequency and slope of the Swarm system? I understand the xo is before the Swarm amp and all subs operate in the same frequency range, summing up L & R.

My system is set up so the sealed subs cross at 80Hz to the mains, which have dual 6.5" midwoofers per side on vented boxes. I'm building new speakers with dual 10" per side in sealed boxes and hoping to reduce the xo frequency to maybe 60Hz.

Great bass everywhere in the room would not be prime Vandersteen design objective
great bass and the rest at a very optimal listening position is.
hence lots of out of the box  ideas implemented over the many years by RV ... out of the box which is a metaphor for innovation, not more boxes = out of the box....
anyway just a few that work together as a system to create the stereo illusion...
power factor corrected amp optimized for drivers in sub
transfer function of the main amplifier preserved - very important to preserving lower midrange phase integrity
high pass filter adjustable for amp
time and phase coherent
minimum baffle
eq bands not at fractional octaves to address common room nodes ( that one if ya pay attention is way out of equalizer box theory....
push pull aluminum cone sub in the 5 etc
carbon fiber cabinet inside a cabinet..
the list goes on

" What's the crossover frequency and slope of the Swarm system? I understand the xo is before the Swarm amp and all subs operate in the same frequency range, summing up L & R."

Hi lewinskih01,

   I actually own the Audio Kinesis Debra bass system (a very similar system to the Swarm that I bought from James Romeyn Music & Audio in Utah that he is licensed to sell under the Audio Kinesis brand).  Both systems use the same 1K watt sub amp that contains an active xo with a continuously variable low pass cutoff filter that ranges from 20-200 Hz  that I usually set at 40 Hz.  Sorry, I'm not sure of the slope.  All subs operate flat from 20-100 Hz with 113 db output @ 20 Hz, are 4 ohms, are fed the same l+r summed mono signal, have 10" drivers and can handle 600Wrms. 

     Here'a link to the exact Debra bass system I own:

   http://jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd... 

Tim

" noble100 ,
I would not discount the Sub 3 until I listened to it. If Mr. V. discontinues a very good sub in favor of a new one, it must be a significant improvement.
And, Vandersteen's use of an external high pass crossover was very much 'thinking outside of the box' 30 years ago, so maybe Johnny isn't exaggerating.
I understand the concept of using multiple subs to eliminate/ reduce room nodes, but perhaps integrating an equalizer can achieve something the same. As I have not heard, nor know how they are set up, I can't say definitely how well/badly they work.
Maybe they will be in the store when I get some time to go later this summer-along with some other Audiogon members.
Bob"

Hi Bob,

     It was not my intention to criticize the Vandy Sub Three at all.  I  stated the Sub Three seems like a very good sub for $2,500 and it appears to be a worthy replacement for the very good but now discontinued 2QW.
      My main point was that no single sub, not even the most expensive and highest quality sub in existence, is capable of reducing the majority of bass standing waves and resultant bass peaks and nulls in any given room.  In fact, using only a single sub probably creates a net increase in   bass standing waves in most rooms. 
     Unfortunately, an equalizer is not able to eliminate, or compensate for, the vast majority of bass standing waves that inevitably result from having a single sub in a room.  The only scientifically proven methods to reduce bass standing waves in any given room are either expensive, inefficient and bulky bass traps on the back end or the moderately expensive, efficient and much more effective method of multiple subs in a distributed bass array configuration on the front end.    
     Again, I think the Vandersteen Sub Three seems like an excellent sub.  However,  I also think using a minimum of 2 and up to 4 of them will provide the best results.     
    My motivation is just to spread the word about how well the distributed bass array system has worked for me and how it will likely work for others in their rooms using their choice of subs. Deploying 2 subs is good, 3 is better and 4 is best.
   Tim                             

For me what's most important is to have the best experience possible in the sweet spot. How the bass does in other parts of the room is not as important as that precious, precious sweet spot. I think my game plan is to get 1 vandy sub to start with, then add a second once funds recover. (I will put the first one in the corner behind the left front main, then once I get a second, I will put it in the corner behind the right front main). Based off what I've heard I will not find anything as musical as the Vandersteen sub. Being musical is paramount. Although I enjoy home theater and would love to get the "dishes shaking off the shelves" effect, I really only care about how good I can get my 2-channel  analog system to sound.

Oh man
as a 2 bit $&@%#++++ hack of a bass player
“ just hammer A till I give ya the look”

cause the real rebel failed to show ( again ) for practice,

why do you guys always put us in the LEFT corner... ?

Lol. Does it make a difference? I think RV just said "a corner" for his recommended placement. Not sure he specified right or left if you only have one...

The Ampeg bass stack ( which was a sob to move ) was in the left corner.....

Get yourself a Leica Disto ($59 on Amazon ) and hone your setup

@bstatmeister - You are 100% on the same page as I was when I started to look for a sub.  I did exactly what you did, picking up one 2Wq, then several months later a second one, placing each in the front corner outside the mains.  And, when the material calls for it, these two subs can shake and pressurize the room quite well, IME.  One thing I would also plan on, is eventually upgrading to the M5-HP crossovers.  Not cheap, but worth every penny, IMHO.

Are the M5-HPs variable like the  MX-2? or do you have to order them fixed based off the impedance of the amp?

easy the jumpers are actually DIP switches, just know with certainty the input impedence of your amp !

failing that you can use Vandertones and a Multi-meter to get it right !

m5 in single ended do come up used and Randy at Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica always seems to have an extra used set, as will many Vandersteen dealers

try to get batteries with some years left and Audioquest Sky pigtails :)

Seems like the biggest differences in the M5-HP are the dip switches and pigtails. My pair have the Audioquest Fire pigtails.

What are the differences between the dip switches and the pig tails? Is there a default?
What about the M5-HP with balanced connections? As a nice monkey wrench, my current preamp situation is this:
preamp out with unbalanced RCA into a Samson S-convert, then outputted to my amp with balanced cables. (in this situation i could get the balanced M5-HP, no?)

Am I better off just taking the samosn s-convert out since it's just one more thing that breaks the signal, or am I better off using the samson with the balanced cables, since balanced, when all things considered is better than unbalanced? Thanks for the feedback. Learning lots!

@bstatmeister  I'll try to answer your questions as clearly as I am able.  The "pigtail" is the interconnect cable coming out of the M5-HP.  You plug your preamp main out interconnect in the one side of the rectangular M5-HP and then the "pigtail" end plugs into the input jacks on the back of your power amplifier.  Before doing all of that plugging in, you need to open the crossover box and find the tiny "dip switches"  In my case my amp has a 100k ohm input impedance.  I have my M5-HP set at one setting below that which is 75k.  The manual suggests that you try to the actual input impedance setting of your amp and one below, I believe.  For me, that one step below gave me the most seamless integration of the subwoofers into my system.

Hope this helps!

PS  I would take the Samson out and use unbalanced cables.  If you need to purchase a good pair of cables, they are around including, of course, here on Audiogon.

i would be inclined to run single ended get converters out of tge way..
Conrad Johnson and many, many others do magical things with SE

there are two versions of the 5 filter with different DIP switch, I believe 6-8 or 8-10 positions
more DIP positions indicate a more recent filter but a quick call to Hanford, or competent dealer would tell ya, both are perfectly good
the AQ Fire cables are very good, SKY is better but we are talking small stuff here and that assumes you have Sky level cables elsewhere.....

Now I remember why I have the samson s-convert. My amp does not support RCA Jack's. Just TS or XLR. I suppose I could buy a plug that converts RCA to TS and give that a whirl?

     If one wanted the finest signal integrity and purity for optimum performance from a music based 2-ch system, is it beneficial to use an amp with non-standard connections,  use multiple connector type adapters and use an external crossover with multiple signal affecting dip switches?
     
     I think we all know the answer to this, right?

Tim

@noble100   Agree with you that adapters should be avoided but the M5-HP is remarkably transparent.  An important thing to keep in mind is the effect of freeing your main amp from having to produce deep bass.  The treble and midrange open up with more dynamic flow without giving up first class deep bass that the Vandys produce.  

Hello hifiman5

Yes, I understand and agree with you about how relieving the main amp’s responsibility of amplifying bass signals is beneficial both to the amp’s power output requirements and the overall sound since the amp is then able to devote itself to only amplifying the mid and high frequency signals. This should result in a more effortless and dynamic sound for everything above the bass.
I would just suggest that, if the goal is a matching effortless and dynamic sound for the system bass, more than a single sub is the optimum solution..
In my experience, employing a distributed bass system of at least 2 subs, will deliver the revelatory sound performance in the bass that you accurately described for the mids and highs once an amp is relieved of amplifying all bass frequencies.
Again, however, I advise that using just a single sub will not bring bass response closer to this goal, using 2 will begin the improvement, using 3 will continue the improvement and using 4 subs is the magic number that will allow reaching the goal.
I understand if some are skeptical but the results I describe above are scientifically proven via experiments that have been independently verified not only by acoustic scientists but also by regular people who have purchased and deployed distributed bass array systems such as myself and many others.
I’m just trying to spread the word on how well this concept actually works. My initial opinion of the sound results upon first listen remains the same today: it almost magically produces excellent bass without any DSP, parametric equalizing, room treatments, mics or room correction software or hardware.
My only cautions to bstatmeister would be to not just plunk down his single Vandy sub in a convenient spot arbitrarily. He’ll get much better results following my positioning procedure previously described:

1. Hookup your sub and place it at your desired listening position.
2. Play music that has good and repetitive bass.
3. Walk around your room in a systematic manner listening for an exact spot where the bass sounds the best to you.
4. Once this spot is located, reposition your sub to this exact spot.
5. To test results, sit at your designated listening position and repay the same music.

As you would expect, bass response will be improved as additional subs are added to the room. 2 subs, properly positioned, will give better results than 1. Repeat the above procedure for each additional sub you desire to buy and bass response will continue to improve.
I don’t advise using more than 4 subs unless you enjoy wasting your money. Any gains made in bass response in your room beyond 4 subs will be incrementally much smaller than the obviously more noticeable gains made when adding subs #2-4.
CAUTION: Disregarding any of the above utilitarian advice is at your own peril and may result in the forfeiture of all consultation fees you may have paid.

Love,
Tim
XOX

@noble100  +1  Very good advice.  In my modest sized room (13.5' X18') two Vandy subs.  provide a powerful, even deep bass response.  

Hi hifiman,

     Another independently verified example of how well the distributed bass array system works.
     I'll start the incorporation process for our new company: The hifiman5 and noble100 Home and Business Sound System Consulting Group.
     Please locate and fully outfit our new storefront location, including phones, computers, staff along with fully operational Vandy and Audio Kinesis showrooms.
     I think a June 1st Grand Opening should be our goal.
Thanks,
   Tim
P.S.  I'll need a 65" OLED hdtv, leather couches and chairs, a fireplace and a hot tub in my no less than 30 x 30 ft. corner office with a view.
Thanks,
  Tim

@noble100 Sounds like Harvey's office on Suits.😛

those DIP switches win best sound at show after show after show......
but as I have said before, they can be eliminated
just get the M7 amplifiers.....
and for any true DIY tweaker
easy to pull them and solder around....

but ya know

even solder has a sound

If I get rid of the samson, looks like I need something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B078R2FBC9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1526755689&sr=8-2-spons...

@OP,
The Vandersteen M5-HP crossover comes in XLR config.
If you nail down the setting, you can buy fixed crossovers from Vandersteen for a couple hundred bucks from any Vandersteen dealer, or Johnny at Audioconnection.
B

bstatmeister,

     I'm familiar with unbalanced rca and balanced XLR connections but I've never heard of a TS connector.  

     From the Amazon adapter you linked to, it seems you're 'TS' connector is what I consider a'1/4"'  connector typically used for mics and headhones. 
     I'm assuming your amp acepts l+r mono 1/4" plugs, correct.?  Can you tell us the brand and model of your current amp? 
      I'm not stating you're definitely wrong in calling. a 1/4" plug a TS plug, just that I've never heard anyone refer to a 1/4" plug as a TS  plug.
Thanks,
  Tim  

Tim
it is a TS plug, see Sweetwater.....
one channel, tip and shield

Yep 1/4" inch mic/headphone plug same thing as a TS plug (I think TS is used more in the pro audio world) and my amp is a pro audio amp. It's a behringer EP2500, it's got a lot of power and was inexpensive so that's why I bought it. It was pretty loud when I first got it due to the on board cooling fan that sounded like a jet turbine, so I did the fan mod and now it's very very quiet. I remember I bought it with the samson s-convert since it didn't accept RCAs but it did take XLR. I thought at the time that I could benefit from the balanced connections, but I've never done a direct comparison between the XLR and the TS. I just bought those plugs from Amazon, so I will let you know how the comparison turns out.

If the TS connections sound better than the XLR with the Samson (which is the hope since I will be removing additional stuff) I will be a happy camper since the unbalanced Vandersteen cross-overs are significantly cheaper if I'm not mistaken. (Honestly I would rather buy an extra sub than a cross over - at least to start off with...lol)

Nope, the balanced and unbalanced M5-HP crossovers are basically the same price (approx $700 used). The fixed crossovers are much cheaper (say $250).
In my opinion, using balanced connectors would be the best way to go as cable length and composition make less contribution to the sound performance.(Don't take my word for it, PM Ralph at atmasphere).
Bob

BTW if anyone knows someone who could use 100k  X-1 crossovers I will send them for free as I have the M5-HP.  

@noble100 and others interested in room acoustics: which other fora are you active in?

I'm interested in discussing and posting some measurements (which Agon doesn't allow) and would live to engage others who share that interest.

Cheers!

without digging around much on your specific power amp, you are likey to find the unbalanced input sounds better......there are extra parts ( phase inverter, etc) in the balanced path and we can pretty much assume your amp is not a balanced topology internally.....

but listen to both and decide......

you do need to be careful to not fry your sub amp......grounds and hots hyper critical.....

the fixed Vandy filters pale sonically to the M5 or the even better M7

street price xlr and se about the same, but imo xlr much more rare as people usually move in that direction....but not always......