... and wasn't Joni smart to get Jaco in on some of her work!!
Vandersteen Moel 2Ce better than Model 1B used in midsize room
Probably the answer is yes but for now i must say i’m quite happy with mine model 1B. The situation is i can buy a used 2Ce for a reasonable price. I don’t have big annoying problems with the 1B only the tend to drown a bit when the music get more complex an is building up like a orchestra build up to a crescendo. My main music is Jazz like Chat Baker an fusion jazz like Billy Cobham which reproduce the 1B excellent. I was wondering how big the change will be by replacing the 1B with the 2Ce.
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my experience with the 1Ci is that they require a humongous room, at least 300 sq./ft. and one can't listen to them any closer than about 10' away, any closer and they become strident due in large part to a lumpy small-room response at their 2.8 kc crossover point. their mellowness only reveals itself in a big room with considerable distance between listener and speaker array. they are fairly sensitive though and tolerant of weak amplification. |
@OP, I agree, your integrated NAD has a enough power, but there is more to it than that. There seems to be a couple of manufacturers who's products seem to work seamlessly with Vandersteen speakers- Ayre, Belles, and Atma-Sphere would my picks. Also, regarding cabling, Audioquest really seems to bring out the definition Vandy's can offer. As I have no recent experience with NAD( I did own some of their equipment years ago), I would suggest PM'ing Johnny Rutan (Audioconnection) for his take on this. He super knowledgeable on equipment, as well as set up. And, he offers it for free with no strings attached. Bob |
@tomic601 Al Stewart is my old regular cd i bought some where late 80ties. Don’t know if this is the best release. Second file are the Beatles - Come together latest re-master where the Vandies comes alive tight bass from Paul for instance. What i noticed in the 70ties not much was recorded whit lots of dynamic because it does not make sense probably because of the limitation of vinyl.Don’t get me wrong al Stewart does not sound bad but compared to some similar music for instance Joni Mitchel - Hijera (third track here under) Al stewart sounds flat (highhats an voice sound almost compresed) IMO but ok that could be subjective. Ultimate question is will the 2Ce do a better job. http://www.mediafire.com/file/k8low0nnh0h61tw/01._Come_Together_%25282019_Mix%2529.flac/file http://www.mediafire.com/file/93f5yvrbmei2eph/hej08-blue_motel_room.flac/file |
For NY - Brian is super correct , download the extensive model 2 owners manual which includes very detailed setup instructions- there are some rare ROOm N / listener geometry where no tilt is called for but certainly not the norm. The time and phase correct alignment of all Vandersteen products rewards precise setup !!! Post any questions here. The Vandy website also has owners section and a place to review ? To Richard. |
Two issues - the acoustic coupler is not going to contribute that much that far out from the wall. Your DSP can help but boost will be what is needed and that can cause other issues. Tomcarr is correct, high passing the 1 takes massive load off the 8” driver in the 1, cleaning things up. to the OP I assume the nad has preamp out / amp in jacks ??? IF not you might be able to implement the correct low pass filter with your DSP |
@audionoobie Don’t find you contrarily because this is exactly why i have a bit of doubt. Let i put it like this. The 1B is performing whit let say 70% of my music which is Jazz small ensembles but also jazz rock like Steely Dan as a dream. Basically hearing Chet baker (most of his albums) they create an intimacy (staging, detail, clearity) that is unbelievable. Till now i did not have this experience with any other speaker brand that i listen to in my room an i had some. Only when i play lets say Year of the Cat from Al Stewart it sound more or less flat. When i hear that i think would a 2Ce does that better or is the recording such that the information that I’m looking for is just not there/in (I do use room correction software that does an excellent job in balancing the sound) . Basically i think it is a trade of an you think the bigger the better specially when it is the same brand.
@gnrdbob The NAD C370 is an integrated amp using 6mm ofc speaker cable an JK acoustics type 2 an van der hul interlinks. Some years ago i did a measuring as you could see in one my pictures. As you can see there are peak difference from sometime almost 15 db thats a lot. I can assure you no cable, amplifier or change in CD, DAC can overcome this. So i start first with some wall an ceiling treatment for my monitors that helped for about 15%. Than i used room correction software (Mathaudio Room EQ) that changed the sound more than 70% for the better it is completely balanced using the flat target curve. I’m now 61 did spend quite a lot of money in decent gear but i never had this experience with Room Correction software the best money i spent was 80,- Euro buying a measuring mic. I don’t think the B1 is broken however it is difficult too reach the drivers but i know that the drivers have rubber surrounds not foam an they sound very tight when needed.
@tomic601 Yes i was also thinking about adding a sub woofer however i don’t have a problem with the tight bass that is now present in the B1
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1, 2, 3, Treo, 5, 7 owner... looking at your attic photo...cool room - some challenges and opportunities... love it by the way... your NAD has enough grunt for either, obviously you could change it to some benefit. with your space, i would high pass the 1’s and add a Vandersteen sub. IF you put the 2’s where the 1’s are currently you will get the benefit of the midrange for sure BUT the acoustic coupler is too far out from the wall to have much effect....hence my recommendation. have fun, enjoy the music !!!!! |
As far as sound 'getting muddled'. I would look upstream. Your NAD is a decent amp. What is your preamp and source and cables? Audionoobie's Belles Aria is a great combo with Vandy's. I run a pair of Aria monoblocks with my VLR's. They really put my old McCormack Micro amps to shame. Also, preamp and cabling will make a significant difference in what you are hearing. Please, don't think I want you to buy more equipment, but my opinion is that if you aren't hearing complex passages, then there must be something wrong upstream, because I know the Vandy 1's can perform as well as the 2's with regard to complex music. The only other factor would be if the speakers are in need of repair. Bob |
Not to be contrarian but I would say the grass is not always greener. I had the 1ci's and quickly upgraded to the 2ce Sig II's. I have a similar shape room to yours and found the 2ce to be just too big, especially in the low end. I recently had an opportunity to pick up another pair of 1ci's for a steal. For the most part I'm pretty pleased with them. But I completely agree with you, when the music gets more dense the Vandy's tend to sound muddled and congested. Just something to think about. Currently running them with a Belles Aria or a Rogue Cronus Magnum III. |
I have the newest 2CE, the Signature 3 (they replaced 20 year old 2CE's...I guess you can conclude I like the Vandy sound!). My room is about 12x15 with the speakers on the long wall. I’m about 8 feet from the speakers. They sound excellent. The next step is to tune the room to tame the bass, because it’s a small-ish room. If you can get the 2CE Sig2 or Sig3, do it--I don’t think you’re regret it. I would love to have Vandy Treo CT’s but need more moolah! |
Thanx for the input for now. My amp is a NAD C370 200 watt at 4ohm. Peak power is much higher. Think juice enough. The space of my attic which has a V shape roof guess 60 degrees is 13 x 22 feet compared with a normal room with strait wall my cubic meters are less. However my 1B is sounding amazing despite my lousy acoustics which i correct with room correction software creates a balanced sound which benefits the Vandies quite. The whole attic will be rebuild. Attic: [img]https://i.imgur.com/p0yINEm.jpg[/img] Frequency response acoustic room: I guess the character of both models is more ore less the same regarding imaging transparency the 2Ce will do it probably more effortless and will sound more controlled compared to the B1 if playing demanding music. Can buy them for 650,- euro including original stands. |
I have owned the 1c, 2c and 3A Sigs at various times (the 1c and 3a Sigs at the same time). The upgrade from the 1 to 2 is large and well worth it. The step to the 3 smaller. The one caveat is the the 2 and 3 are much less efficient than the 1, so make sure you amp has enough power. I would recommend at least 200w/ch into 4 ohms. |
I would say go for it. A couple years ago I bought some used 1C’s. Loved them from the start, so much so that I wanted more. So, only 2 months later saw a pair of 2CE Sigs available for a good price, and jumped on them. The difference is quite large, and I do not regret purchasing them in the least. You get more of ’everything’; the acoustic coupler and dedicated mid range speaker being the two differences that cannot be denied. The overall sound is simply much more ’full’, deep, and wide. My room is about 12’-6" x 17’-6" + 3’ for partial opened stair. The 2CE Sigs are on the narrow wall. No problems at all. With the tilt, and placement per Vandersteen’s guidelines, you could probably make them work even in a smaller space. I listen to a lot of orchestral music myself, along with jazz and ’rock’, and the 2CE’s are wonderful. To me, they do like power in order for them to perform more effortlessly. I ’power’ them with an old Belles 400A amp at 200 wpc. But, previous to that had a original B&K 125.2 at about 135 wpc, and that worked fine as well, but glad to have the Belles. Amp current rating is probably more important than watts. (I edited re: power as mcreyn posted). I still have the 1C’s as rears in my HT set-up, and as back-ups should anything happen, or I decide to downsize in the future, but that is doubtful any time soon. |