@heardthat....Although I have not heard them, my many years of listening experience, speaker ownership, exposure to so much, as well as my understanding of all the review language given ( both professional and non professional ), I have some idea as to how they might sound, and I thought you may be interested. I mentioned in an earlier post here, that there are many speakers to choose from. I do not claim to know everything, but, I believe in myself when it comes to audio, and so do many happy clients, friends, and one or two relatives.. I stay very open minded as to the wide variance of what people are looking for. I believe you will like these. Mr. Alexander ( the guy behind Tekton ), is a very busy man. If you find him unavailable, or seems to rush your conversation, it is nothing personal. He has been trashed here for it. $300. of a loss is nothing in this industry. Good luck Always, MrD.
Vandersteen 3A Sigs vs Klipsch Forte III
I'd like to get input on a comparison of both of these speakers. I have not heard them. No dealers in my area. I realize it may be an apples to oranges match up to many but want to hear the pros and cons of both. Haters welcome!! I'll be driving them with a Mac 6200 integrated. 75w into 8 ohms and 100w into 4 ohms. Room is 27x18x10h. I listen to all music. Some vinyl. Appreciate moderate base, clarity in vocals, imaging, and like the speakers to "disappear". Thoughts?
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Tomic601, it's all helpful !! MrD, this is unreal. You mention the Tekton DI's as a possibility for me. I had never heard of them until I happened upon a thread yesterday after my last post. Now I am really intrigued by them. They sound like a "too good to be true" kinda thing. But a 1000 flys can't be wrong !! Price, sound, technology, looks(I like the looks), and return policy. I didn't want to post my discovery for fear of sounding flaky by doing a 180 on the Vandy's and Klipsch. I'm planning on calling Tekton and hopefully speaking to Eric and asking him some questions. What a leap of faith though; mail order $3000 speakers. Although I read some dealers are being set up. For $300 (return shipping if necessary) a 60 day audition may be worth it. |
On the subject of modern grill cloth and treatments two issues diffraction at the edges and absorption competent ( well IMO ) engineers design a frame that is acoustically integrated with the baffle - optimizing for flat response or other variables, as stated some may voice or engineer for grille on or off. Cloth is not a uniform absorber period for the record, run the brother in laws loaner L-100 with the ancient grills off.... |
Mrdb actually no you hit no sore spot and yes I do enjoy my systems, plural which include horns, large baffles ( the Cornwall are both , planar ribbons ( Apogee) and yes minimum baffle designs.... I have 7 or 8 pair of speakers.... not attacking your hearing just grounding some of the discussion in physics enjoy |
Not to get tooooo far off topic but the physics of a large baffle vs minimal baffle are pretty well understood and IF you can’t hear it try this simple experiment with a 1’ x 1’ price of cardboard, cut mouth hole and have someone speak thru hole ..... roll into a cone and you get focused energy.... then compare those to speaking in free space... |
Most of the speakers I have owned, disappeared, but most, never sounded like live music, nor, made my toes tap. I think the higher efficiency of the speaker has something to do with the dynamics one hears. Many are talking about the Tekton DI series, giving you this " slam ", feel it in your chest thing, and they are not horn loaded. @heardthat, you might want to consider a pair of DIs ( free in home trial, just pay for shipping back in need to return ). Many listeners I respect here like them ( actually love them ). Just read the threads. Enjoy MrD. |
@hifiman55. Secondary audio diffractions ? I do not hear any. Most speaker grill material will take care of that. That is the reason Thiel recommended leave the grills on. I actually prefer most speakers without grills, as they sound a bit more open. I like speakers that sound open. When I owned AR9s, Spica 50s and Angelus, some Duntech models ( and more ), a successful modification I was doing was to change the thick absorber material on the front baffles to a much thinner, slightly less absorbent material, which in every case, opened up the dynamics, to me, dramatically. Knowing I wanted dynamics led me to horns. Knowing you are a Vannie, I understand why you like them. I owned most of the 2 series, along with his subs and crossover. You do know the JBL 100s are not horns. |
I'm with MrD. Over 60, starting with the Audio Visual Squad in grade school to building my own speakers, components or systems I found I have an "ear" for audio. 1) Referring back to your original question: horns, although very accurate, are directional with a narrow dispersion pattern and being mounted to a flat front board even the best (JBL 100 Studio Monitors) will ring with secondary audio diffractions. 2) The Vandersteens are Stealth aircraft in comparison. Separate speakers and enclosures mounted in mid air behind the grill and no flat surfaces. Properly positioned they will produce your requirement of disappearing. Having owned my first high end speakers for 30 years I feel your audio OCD and hesitation. They never sound the same at home as in the showroom, so to begin means making that first choice. Have fun and be prepared to play with optimal positioning. |
@heardthat.......Why I said " for what I enjoy ". I am in my 60s and have been at this recorded music listening hobby since my early teens. I was in the industry as well. Owned much of it, and heard much of it ( equipment / speakers, etc ). Always had the ability of listening for myself. I have helped others with their systems ( I am semi retired ). Many were, and many were not, horn owners. There are an amazing amount of speakers out there to consider. But what you are finding is the passion folks here have about what they own. Many affluent hobbyists here on the 'Gon. You are not being " told " anything. Try and listen for yourself. It is all about you. Enjoy your journey. MrD |
Mrdecibel, I understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to have the forum "tell" me what I like or don't like. It's an individual thing. But, it's all this collective conversation that sheds light on what I may or may not like and how to determine in what direction I want to go. Ultimately it's my listening experience and no one else's that matters. But, your opinions do matter. I am guilty of "analysis paralysis" at times. But I think that's kind of understandable in this hobby. There are so many subjective and objective variables that have to be considered. In many ways that's the appeal and mystic to it all. In the end, no one is ever wrong if he/she likes what they like. It's great to have a spot like this where ideas and opinions can be shared. |
Owning modified Klipsch Lascalas / powered subwoofers, I have to say that there is a night and day difference between a Vandersteen and Klipsch ( Heritage models specifically ). Different tastes, different listeners. Ozzy 62 said it best. For what I enjoy, I have chosen my path. And, for all who don’t know, or cannot imagine, " they " do all those things the Vandys are known to do. |
Hifiman55, too funny. I hear ya on the "jump in" part. When u said a Sig II 3a I thought I was already behind on new iterations. Speakers are sort of like cell phones, you can keep waiting for the next version forever and get nothing in the meantime !! Buying without hearing em is a big leap for me. There is a guy now that says I may be able to audition. |
Sorry late night alphabetitus. Went from Vandy 2CE Signature II's to the Signature 3A's. The Signature and an A on the serial number marking the difference over older Model 3's. Here's a link for a really nice pair at a great price of $2000. off original retail: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Beautiful-pair-of-Vandersteen-Audio-3A-Signature-Speakers/323185651266?_trk... Serial #2266A, Vandersteen can supply approx. manufacture date. Jump in and get your feet wet. You can't duplicate your sound space listening in someone else's. The 3A has many components from the Series 5 and are outstanding. You should enjoy them for many years. At the very worst you can resell for what you paid or more. Jump in, the waters fine, good luck. |
Hifiman55, thanks for input. I'm curious, you said you have Sig 3a II's. I haven't seen a II designation in that model. Although there might be one at some point. This is wierd, but in the past week I have reached out to to a couple of Vandy owners that are selling their speakers and have asked if I can view and have a quick audition. I can't get a reply even after repeated attempts. I dunno, maybe something to hide. I would like to buy used if they're in 8/10 shape. |
If your still deciding. My Audio/HT system is Vandy 3A Signature II's for the mains and Klipsch Reference series for center, surrounds and sub. |
Tomic601, as I'm reading your scheme of a VandyVan, I immediately conjured up a vision of a class A motorhome with quad slideouts and a full setup for auditions. All sponsored by RVandy of course. But then, but then, I came back to reality....Yes, retirement is better. San Diego may be in the cards for an audition. Helomech, I've looked on Amazon but haven't dealt with Music Direct. Heck, return shipping would be less time and travel money. Gawdbless, never auditioned Focals. I'm not chasing nirvana, I just want to get it "mostly" right. Thanks to you all for chatting with me. Really nice to get honest input and suggestions. This may take a while but I'll update when I get things sorted out. |
The Forte III can be ordered through Amazon, and the 3A Sigs can be bought through Music Direct. Both have liberal return policies, though MD does require buyers to pay return shipping. Nothing better than an in-home audition. I believe most Vandy dealers will throw in the stands for free. ;-) If you buy the Forte through Amazon, try to verify consecutive serial numbers. Some online buyers have received non-matching pairs of Klipsch heritage speakers but the box labels state which speakers are to be sold together. Their drivers and veneers are matched from the factory so it does matter. |
heardthat...62 degrees and marine layer in Carlsbad today....i don’t envy Shubert any at all...freaking 9 degrees.... i actually have kind of a running joke going on starting a mobile Audio business called VanderVan, where we just load up a pair of everything in a Sprinter and travel to underserved markets across the USA....and then I think, retirement is better ! IF you do fly down to San D Bruce at Stereo Unlimited is a very worthwhile visit, great store with like 7 demo rooms, lots of vinyl and many brands of speakers, except Klipsch |
Schubert, I just picked up ur comments coming off the golf course here in northern California. It was a cool 75° today !! Sorry, can't imagine 9° except when I'm skiing. Well you've been around Klipsch enough. Interesting on the Forte being the exception to brightness. I have to hear them. I called around the whole bay area today, 65 mile radius, and could not find one dealer carrying the Vandy 2ce Sig II or Sig 3a, and several scoffed when I asked about Klipsch Forte III's. What's the deal? Terrible profit margins with those lines? I have to drive 6 hours or fly to San Diego or LA to audition. Tomic601 probably has best solution to save time and $$ and just buy both, do an a/B, and then sell a set. |
I only listen to classical music and a bit of jazz . Once upon a time i worked for one of the biggest Klipsch dealers in the USA . The only place I would listen to them was from another room , they were that bright . SOLE exception was the Forte , they had a balance and "breathed" in such a manner Classical was good on them even though they were still a bit bright . I can well imagine the III's might do very well on most anything . If the 12" of snow in St Paul ever melts (9 degrees tonight) I plan on trotting down to klipsch dealer to hear for myself . s ole |
Tomic601, I'm in the San Francisco south bay area. That's cool u chatted with the Man this am. Flashlight trick is smart helomech. So the woven mid cone is a big improvement mr_m. I'd hate to leave technology on the table with sight unseen speakers. Almost like u have to buy new if u can't get full disclosure and inspection. I can imagine that if Mr V is doing unpublished "tweaks" over the years, a later 3a sig could sonically be better than the same model a few years earlier. That would suck to discover that after the fact. |
yes Vandersteen works continually to upgrade and improve the product sometimes without official designation, just look at the evolution from model 2 all the way to 2ce signature II.......and those are the major changes......they have sold ( still in production) about a quarter million model 2..... just imagine a small company with an improvement obsessed owner, recording every change by serial #.... i had occasion to chat with Richard this AM, he was out in the shop finishing the build on a set of power amps, not overseeing it - doing the work..... the big change in the 3 was to 3a sig which put in the 5a tweeter and midrange....the 5a was world class, the 3a gets you close in many dimensions.... flashlight trick is good. heardthat.....where are you located ? |
The Vandy's are 10 or 15 years old and won't have Vandersteen's most recent upgrades. I have read that he tweaks without changing the name of the speaker. Are any of those changes significant, like a woven composte midrange cone? Yes, the overall design had been around that long, but there have been unpublished upgrades along the way. I almost bought a used pair a few months ago and confirmed with Vandersteen that they've made both minor and significant revisions over the years. I was told the most significant upgrade was the move to the woven midrange cone. The older cones have a smooth surface. This should be easy to detect by shining a light through the fabric. |
Yes, yes and yes....I would love to get K-horns and I have the room for it. BUT, it would totally turn the room into audio only (not a bad thing), no big screen, furniture issues, selfish?? Tomcarr, sound advice for sure. I'm going to ask a couple of repair shops if they know of anyone with the Vandy's and less likely, the Forte's that I could audition. |
You are trying to compare two polar opposite speaker designs. I happen to love the sound of Vandies and think Klipsch sound like PA speakers, but that is only my opinion, no more or less valid than every other poster's. Book a flight, audition what you might purchase, and buy smart. Don't buy ear-blind unless you don't mind the possibility of disappointment. Buy once, buy right. |
Man, a room that size!, if you have two corners free, may throw in a banana?, Klipschorns! very cheap used. I bought a pair without an audition. The (cheap) punt for me was worth it.Totally. I am a horn guy, so maybe just a tad biased, although there are quite a few conventional loudspeakers that I could live with. |
Ozzy62, good info. Glad u like the Forte III's. I just can't buy without listening to both sets of speakers. Tomic601 has a solution to just buy both, do the A/B, then sell a set. What a long way around though. Sure miss the days of an Audio store everywhere you turned. The Forte's are new and therefore are the latest technology for that speaker. The Vandy's are 10 or 15 years old and won't have Vandersteen's most recent upgrades. I have read that he tweaks without changing the name of the speaker. Are any of those changes significant, like a woven composte midrange cone? |
As helomech mentions, most opinions of fortes in this thread are of the I and II version. Most have not heard the current iteration. I bought a pair of Forte IIIs a few weeks ago and I absolutely love them. They do intimate and simple music well, right along with hard rock and metal. And there's nothing like listening to jazz on a well sorted out system with horns and tubes. Vandys have always been, meh, ok to me. Horns give you musicians in the room. Oz |
Thanks tomic601, I will try to contact you, maybe a few months? Would look forward to hearing one of your systems. Love Vandersteen. My 2Wq sub just took my Treo Ct's to a whole new level. Hope I didn't sound too forward about coming to your place in SD. I should realize not everyone welcomes strangers into their homes. Looking forward to meeting you sometime. Cheers! Tim |
mr_m alas the wild veneer Treo are in hibernation ( storage ) at Vandersteen awaiting condo completion....funny how these things go as I led a team that built a 1m square foot building ahead of schedule and under budget....but getting a couple of bathrooms done and finding really flat paint eludes me... my guess is there wil be music in a month, decent sound in two ish at which point you are very welcome to come hear what they can do with a 40 WPC NAIM Atom...No subs and do not anticipate adding them as we have neighbors below...I am investing in some fairly high end floor treatment between concrete and the engineered hardwood. Helomech - right you are that I have zero experience with Forte III i do have about 50 hours on a pair of 1ci, and while I would not characterize anything in the chain i use as bright, there is an Lpad on the rear panel of that and other Vandersteen speakers, it includes cut.... i think IF at all possible the OP should go hear both or even call a dealer who carries hoth for an opinion or a listen finally, both brands hold value well if purchased right, buy both and flip whatever does not float boat.... |
The problem with this thread is you’ll get a lot of opinions based on older Fortes. I’m sure few here have heard the IIIs, which have revised drivers and crossovers. I have Heresy IIIs. Many describe the Heresys as "bright," "fatiguing," or "brittle," but I don’t find that to be the case at all with the H-IIIs, and I’m used to the warmth of Spendor classics. I owned a pair of Vandy 1Cis for about a month and they were the brighter speakers when their treble trim was set to neutral. This was in the same room, with the same gear. The Vandys did have a wider sweet spot and dug deeper, but as with all mid-efficiency speakers, they required some volume before they’d open up. For low volume listening, it’s no contest, the Klipsch speakers will produce greater bass at low levels. |
yes the 3a will rock and do so with a higher duty cycle than ( for example ) a 1ci / Vandersteen sub combination as the very robust midrange takes load off the tweeter. i have a pair of 1ci that I run with a NAIM Atom (40 wpc) and they are very sweet.... I did run the 3 with a 200 wpc Mac ( MC202) in rooms somewhat smaller than yours ( but close volumetricly close)...Something like Gabriel Plays Live....shaking the tree will move ya... you could also get a minty new pair of 2ce sig II which offer a ton of value ) and then add subs later and really have a fantastic setup. |
Tomic601, "glare and fatigue", ya, I get it. I guess I want that pair of "do everything well" speakers. I like soft, low level music sometimes and then I get in the mood to really crank it up and feel the music. That's where I thought the Forte III's could handle it all. But glare and fatigue worries me. Can you blast the 3a Sigs and still have good definition? |
Well no hater for sure with 3 pair of Vandersteen and a pair of rebuilt and upgraded Cornwall in the garage...( but they at one time occupied space in the “ Vintage” room... Apples and Octopus... not oranges.... and yes I had a pair of 3a-sig with Mac power.... i would say Vandersteen faults are subtractive and Klipsch faults are additive with glare, fatigue and lack of image depth critical listening deal killers for me. Wow do they rock tho! I have run them with a MAC 240 and tubes certainly help tame some of the issues. you have enough amp for the 3a and a nice sized room. They reward meticulous setup and careful placement using the massive sound anchor stands. the acoustic coupler provides very significant low bass and superb definition with an amp that can control the low end drivers, have fun in your search, and Apple or ???? It’s all good food |
The Vandies will smoke the ADS, in my opinion. The Klipsh, again in my opinion, work best in large rooms. That being said, getting a recent iteration of the 3a sigs would be the way to go. Unfortunately, Vandersteen doesn't keep records of when a speaker is created, so you have to go by serial number. (This is if you are buying used). Another strategy is to buy a pair of 1Ci's and a pair of 2wq subs used. The cost will be almost the same and will get you a bit more than a pair of 3a sigs in terms of sound.-And, they take up less room. The Sound Anchors on the 3's are impossible to work with in limited space. B |