sns,
Good points. From the international phone access code of 86, Giandel comes from Hong Kong. I guess your Rockpal is the battery, so your procedure sounds logical.
Using battery power to go off the City's power grid
I'm using a Bluetti AC200MAX 2,200 watt expandable power station to take my system off the city's power grid. It runs off a lithium ion phosphate battery with a 4,800 watt pure sine wave inverter. My total system only takes about 450 watts so I have never heard the fan kick on - it is totally silent. The music comes from a completely black background, with a huge soundstage that sounds very natural. I know that Ric Schultz has talked about these types of setups and there is a very expensive Stromtank battery system that is marketed to audiophiles. Anyone else tried this type of setup in their audio system?
Here is a link to a review:
263 responses Add your response
Ricevs, Makes sense, thanks. If the inverter is on all the time, but all the electronics plugged into it are off, then there is no current draw from the inverter. So the batteries won't get drained. But if the low power electronics like preamp and sources are on all the time, then the batteries will drain at a slow but significant rate. If you want to keep the low level electronics on all the time, then it seems that the most economical procedure is to keep the inverter off when not listening, then turn it on first, and then the power amp. Does the battery charger get warm/hot when running the majority of the time? Correct? |
If the battery charger is say 500 watts then the batteries will always be fully charged even if you have your low level components on all the time. Nobody has low level components that draw 500 watts......so just keep the charger on and connected to the battery and when you listen then disconnect the charger from the battery. Come on......this is simple! You do not need to turn anything off.....except maybe your power amp/amps. Who cares how hot the charger is (they typially are switch mode so they run cool)? As long as it is rated at 500 watts continuous (or whatever)....it should be able to do it all the time. |
ricevs, Thanks for the comforting words. However, the low level components could draw 1 (idle)-100 watts (loud music). Without the battery charger, after 24 hours the battery would lose 24-2400 watt hours, with a dead battery unable to be recharged. So it makes sense to run the battery charger all the time when not listening, IF you keep your low level components on. There is a question of what strategy preserves battery life the longest. Suppose the battery has 4000 cycles of life. If the cycle is prolonged by charging less frequently, then the life is prolonged. But if the battery is constantly being recharged, the short cycles accumulate fast. With cars, the alternator constantly recharges the battery, and the battery only lasts a relatively few years. We are hoping these big batteries in our inverter system last longer than car batteries, so what is the best battery charging strategy? I think I read that Goal Zero advises letting the battery run down a little, but obviously not to a very low level. |
The batteries/BMS can handle 200 amps charging and discharging......He is charging with 40 amps and is discharging at 60 amps max.......so they may rise a degree or so....stop worrying.....JUST DO IT!!!!! This is not a car.....in a car you need the most watts per lb.(energy density).....so LIthium Ion batteries are used.....however, they are not as safe as Lithium Polymer (LifePo4)......In our homes we use LifePo4 because they are generally safer. What the car industry is looking for is even more energy density and even lighter and more safe.....they will get there.....then we can use these batteries with our inverter. LifePo4 batteries are already very energy dense......a 200 amp hour AGM battery is typically 125 lbs......A 200 amp hour LIfePo4 battery is 49 lbs. The AGM battery is less than half the price.....but you cannot use all of its capacity and they only last less than half as long......They will actually cost you more over time and perform less good. LifePo4 is pretty darn good (for now) Maybe you will come up with some other concern......My sweet child.....I will hold your hand as we cross the street....You will be safe. |
I love this topic...But to me, it makes no sense to convert DC to AC in an inverter, to power a piece of HiFi thsat then takes AC and converts back to DC to run the darn thing. If we simply run the component on pure, clean DC and simply do away with the AC to DC power supply, we would get reduced costs, smaller unit, less heat and much more efficient topology. With the increased performance and sound quality of more efficient Class D amplification this is very doable. Who will be the first company to embrace this idea? |
I agree with DC power coming from batteries and many devices running off DC there are energy and cost savings. However DC devices run at various voltages which would require specific transformers. Plus battery systems run at varying DC voltages. Many small off grid setups are 12V. Many home systems are 24 or 48V. So while it seems great in principle, pretty sure any implementation is tough and needs customization, hence 110AC. Our off grid setup is 48v and I run class D electronics. The system uses about 50w when running which is an integrated amp, streamer, and speakers with a sub. I turn the sub and integrated amp off at night which reduces the dummy load from about 30 watts to 5 which is just the streamer. |
Sbayne,, it was not my intention to upset you. Also, I am not arguing. I am electronics technician and know how to build an inverter so I know the theory. I am trying to understand an advantage of DC, to inverter over filtered AC power advantage. I personally cannot afford the thousands of dollars for extravagant DC to AC inverters. My solution which is totally silent as far the human ear can tell (all that matters in music) is a cheapo furman filter strip for RFI, with 145v limiting shut off, then that power running to a Chepo Tripplight 1800w power regulator 85v to 145v regulation to 115v. Has more RFI filtering. My setup might or might not be the best for all equipment or situations. It works great with my Primaluna integrated , streaming, innuos setup. If you love the inverter solution, then Cheers! |
Update on using my Bluetti AC200MAX as my power source. I finally got the fan to kick-on! I was listening to hard rock and electronic bass heavy music at fairly loud volumes. I was about 50 minutes into the listening session and didn't hear the fan until between cuts. I repeated the last track and watched the power meter on the Bluetti. The surprising part was it never exceeded 450 watts which is basically what my system draws at idle. I'm guessing the extra quick power demands is what caused the fan to kick-on but those demands don't show on the power meter. I'm going to keep messing with it by first, trying to repeat what occurred and second, plugging the amp into the wall and everything else into the Bluetti then playing the same songs as before - to see if the fan kicks-on again or if it was just a one-off occurrence. |
This is one of the problems with all in ones.....the fan noise. The probably better sounding Giandel Inverters won’t kick in the fan until 40% of the rated power is being used CONTINUOSLY. Having the batteries crammed right next to the inverter and the whole thing covered with a plastic cover.....means heat, heat, heat. The separate Inverters are all heatsink......and you can add as much battery as you like. The all in ones are prettier and you can carry them around and use them outdoors, etc. The separate inverter/battery systems are more than likely better sounding and way more powerful. Certainly the Giandel 5000 is clearly sonically superior to the Ecoflo Pro and the Goal Zero Yeti 3000. I would not touch another all in one.....I use the Goal Zero Yeti 400 becuase it cost practically nothing (less than $400 delivered) and I have no money for something better. I removed its plastic case so the fan will not come on.......my usual Frankenstein mod.....he he. |
ricevs, I don't see the point of adding as much battery power as you like. For example, your friend uses two Amperetime 200 amp-hr batteries. At 12V, this is 4800 watt-hr if the batteries are fully charged. His Giandel inverter is 5000 watt-hr continuous or 10,000 burst. So I don't know why Giandel recommends minimum battery of 500 amp-hr, when 400 amp-hr should be enough. More batteries means more charging time required. To begin, my EQ and CD player each draw 20W, so only 40W-hr is required from the battery for 1 hour of daily listening. A single A-time battery with 2400 W-hr will last me 60 days until it is drained. Only monthly recharging should be OK. This alone should let me know how much benefit there is with the battery + inverter at a minimal cost. If results are good, I'll add my Mytek Brooklyn power amp. On peaks, it needs 1000W, but for routine listening to my classical music which most of the time uses only a few watts, I still estimate that recharging every few weeks will be fine. I suspect that the purity benefits of battery-inverters are mainly at low SPL's. At loud levels, sbayne didn't even hear the fan coming on, but heard the fan only at low levels. |
It is unfortunate that the country such as the US has such an inadequate, outdated, unmaintained system of public utilities that so many citizens resort to battery power to insure reliable, stable, sufficient electrical power and endure the cost, trouble, and inconvenience of such battery systems when the rest of the world has moved on to AC power! |
clearthink - The US, like the rest of the world, uses AC power thanks to Nikola Tesla. And it's "fine" for 99% of the consumers. Its main problem, in my opinion, is it fluctuates anywhere between 110v - 120v depending the time of day and where you are located. Plus, it has all kinds of noise on it. Some audiophiles try to clean it with voltage stabilizers and conditioners. Using batteries (off the grid DC) converted to AC is another way to solve these issues which me (and ricevs and others) think hasn't gotten enough attention. |
I have been to the US so I know you are on AC power my point is that it is so unreliable, outdated, and not maintained that so many audiophiles resort to battery power for the music reproduction systems which is a "third-world" type "solution" but some of you have no choice, alternative, or option it appears I hope you can keep your food refrigerated to safe temperatures! |
Ckearthink is a little cloudy today. We don’t use inverters because the US AC is so bad.....all AC is bad....anywhere in the world. Inverters in Switzerland will make the same SONIC improvement. We use inverters because is sounds better. We use Puritan line filters because it sounds better.....we use separate filtered ground rod and grounding for our stereo because it sounds better......this is the reason to be an audiophile.....to continuously enjoy making our stereos sound more and more alive and therefore we FEEL more alive. You only need as much battery as you need. I am running my whole system on a 33 amp hour battery. However, my current draw with my CD transport, DAC and amp is only 45 watts.........so I get a few hours of liitsening before I need to charge.....However, it is not known what batteries do to the sound and how much battery sounds best.....this is a new game.....only a few are currently playing. Do LIfePo4 batteries sound better than AGM? If you use more battery than you need will it sound better as more batteries equals lower impedance from the battery? And since all inverters will sound different.....which brand sounds the best? And does a 2200 watt Giandel sound the same as the 5000 watter? NO ONE KNOWS any of this until more experiments are done. If you go to Audio Asylum on the tweaks forum you will see a thread I started about inverters. One guy bought the Giandel 5000 and is enjoying it. He has multiple class A amps so he wanted lots of battery. He ended up buying 2 200 amp hour AGM batteries.....AGM batteries cost half as much.....however, they last less than half as long......and a 200 amp hour AGM battery weighs 125lb.......A 200 amp hour LifePo4 battery weighs less than 50 lbs. So, if he bought LifePo4 batteries would it sound better? It will certainly be better on his back. I I had the money i would buy the 5000 watt Giandel ($900) and a single 100 amp hour LIfePo4 battery ($400 and weighs 25 lbs.)......I am going to talk to the owner of the property here and see if I can install my own ground rod right outside my studio. By the way, a fully charged 12V battery is actually 12.6 volts or more. This is why a 200 amp hour batterey is rated at 2500 amp hours (12.6 X 200 = 2520). So a single 100 amp hour battery is 1260 watt hours. When using you don’t get all the watt hours...you do not want to go below 10% charge on the low side for longest life. It is best to consider 80% when using. So if you have 5000 amp hours of battery.....think 4000 watts of actual use. |
ricevs - I totally agree especially with: "Do LIfePo4 batteries sound better than AGM? If you use more battery than you need will it sound better as more batteries equals lower impedance from the battery? And since all inverters will sound different.....which brand sounds the best? And does a 2200 watt Giandel sound the same as the 5000 watter? NO ONE KNOWS any of this until more experiments are done." |
In a nutshell you have what is a, "UPS" system right? Just "tailored" to your rig's requirements. But your numbers are maybe off a bit. "Maybe"? Maybe not. There is a rule used when using "any" inverters, UPS systems and etc. That is; "The UPS must be able to handle full load while also charging the battery system post an electrical outage". I understand the terminology is incorrect for this audio application. But everything else really is the same when designing what is really just a "mini-substation" for a home's audio system. "With an (Isolated-dedicated) grounding electrode" which is Not tied into the homes primary electrical system and/or grounding electrode. This grounding topology, "Which is designed to NOT cause any ground-loop effect, or other types of problems". This can be more than problematic if not done correctly. So, there is a "way" to follow to do this correctly and in the best manner. And "they" account for most of what I have learned to account for. Except for one step that "I" insist on doing also. Which is using toroidal isolating transformers, Isolated for each circuit. Located near the device/s for use. And sometimes more than one per circuit! Thats a lot of copper! But soo worth it! Is anyone here familiar with the "UPS" systems that use the really big concrete flywheels? Big like (800+Lbs.) for the flywheel itself? And with a dia. close to (4') and over 18" wide?? This type of "UPS", It looks like two large, full-sized fridges' put together. In total it weighs about (3000Lbs.). The flywheel is always turning. Powered normally off of the utility power. Not really spinning to fast. Maybe at (450) Rpm's. But that was (20) years ago... 450 Rpm's? "Or so I thought". Now it's more like (36,000 Rpm's) with a (98%) power efficiency! In this modern power topology. The way I have used these systems.... And I post this so that maybe this will shed some light on what is going on as far as this goes. Hopefully this helps some of you. But this is the future. As in, The "immediate" future for all homes. And this at a "100% install level" and this is coming very, very fast. You have to admit that our infrastructure is a mess and the only way to guarantee good, reliable and clean power? At least for twenty years or so? Starts with an "UPS", which is expandable until you are off grid as needed. "Like adding modules", easy! The way this works is: "And this is JUST my exp. with it". My home is a bit different like I said above with the grounding and isolation but other than that? The same. If you have not tried this? You will never understand the benefits. My PC's run better and last longer. No more hard-drive failures. Lighting almost never has to be changed out, "bulbs etc.". And if it has electronic components? It works better and much longer! And my 'rig' has never sounded better! I use a "Battery-Free" system. "Yes", they exist. But, this is how a typical system works. This is like those I saw and also worked with all the time before I retired. And can be purchased "used" now. "They all look new because they were always kept in those IT closets and other such places". "You may need to change out some bearings and batteries. But after that? Another (20) years of use, and more is left in them. So, ALL power in a given area goes through the "UPS" system. Which on an avg. day has a load of maybe 50X the avg. American household. The Idea is that (Any) disruption to the supply voltage has one of two ways that it is always supplying a "Nominal" voltage of clean power. "Low voltage situations are handled by this flywheel which picks up the entire load using the kinetic energy as DC and also inverting to AC any other voltages as needed. In "Over-Voltage" situations, it just switches to battery power. Either internal or external. And as it is being transferred over to the "UPS" batteries OR, flywheel. Once the auto-transfer switches have all engaged and pulled over. The "UPS" then goes to all battery power. But, this shuts down anything deemed, "Non-critical", So basically anything that is not a computer or cooling and ventilation plus fire-safety is shut down because the transfer switches simply do not feed it. . And the only batteries this system uses. Which for that (good sized) power load take up only about the same room or less than a medium sized fridge. They are only rated for the avg. load "Remember that is explicitly, computers, servers, routers and etcetera", good for about (15) minutes. But the flywheels stored kinetic energy? Another two hours and thirty-eight minutes! :"The generators are supposed to be up by then".
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Oy vey, flywheel power backup for the home and refurbishing them in your garage? Not satisfied with audio stories we are making up power ones too?
Flywheel power storage is for extremely high power density as opposed to energy density. 10's to 100's of KW in a small size, but not for long. Minimum price is very high and no one is refurbing at home. Spun up they are a bomb not figuratively but literally. |
goofyfoot, Just read the posts by ricevs. Look at his website, tweakaudio. Click on the golden inverter button. He notes his experience with Goal Zero, and his friend's better results with Amperetime batteries and battery charger, Giandel inverter. What were your findings comparing your ASR amp with and without the battery? |
My Phono Stage runs on batteries that charge only when the unit shuts down. Certainly, with such low signal levels there is a noise advantage and maybe a transient advantage. Doing a whole system based on a total of 4800 watts of Class A power is another story. It would take a large bank of lead acid batteries, a charging power supply that would have to be disconnected with use and a very big inverter. That is a lot of expensive stuff for minimal benefit. Good power supplies do not let much of anything through. |
mijostyn - "Doing a whole system based on a total of 4800 watts of Class A power is another story." What do you have that requires 4,800 watts of power? For instance, my 50 watt Class A amp draws 300 watts and the rest of my system including a tube preamp, DAC, streamer, reclocker and various accessories draws about 150 watts - so a total system draw of 450 watts. 4,800 watts seems WAY too high. |
mijostyn - I just checked out your awesome system! Very nice. Your Parasound JC1 monoblocks draw about 250 watts each at idle and may draw up to 1,200 watts each at full power. So your amps, potentially, may draw 2,400 watts if completely maxed-out when used with your SoundLab speakers. There are definitely powerstations out there that can handle 2,000 - 3,000 watts off grid. The Bluetti EP500Pro, for instance, can handle that load and costs about $5,000. Not cheap but nothing as compared to the Stromtank offerings. As to getting "minimal benefit" for going off-grid for your whole system - all I can say is you need to hear it before passing judgment. The benefits are substantial. |
You stepped in it @mijostyn. Can I offer you a water hose to clean off. You are arguing religion not reality. |
So you can spread whatever fantasies you want @sbayne? Na, I think I will stay around for a while. I could write 500 tweets and still not keep up with the nonsense so many peddle here. |
@sbayne :
Under THIS username, yes, he has only been here since last week. However, he has been here for many years, and thousands of posts, once you factor in his previous 15 (now all banned) usernames. Here is the full list: theaudioamp
deludedaudiophile
thynamesinnervoice
cindyment
snratio
yesiamjohn
sugabooger
dletch2
audio2design
dannad
roberttdid
roberttcan
heaudio123
audiozenology
atdavid |
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My friend with the Giandel 5000 watt system is running Apogee speakers and JC-1+ amps. When he had an amp that did ONLY 400 watts into 4 ohms the amp would clip when he would play Live At Leeds real loud......not now with the JC-1+s....he plays as loud as he wants. The Giandel says it is drawing around 650 watts with his whole system playing music......probably two to three times on peaks when rocking out. No problem with two 200 amp hour batteries.....gives him hours of play time without charging.......and if you have a very large charger you can charge Lifepo4 batteries up to 200 AMPS.....He hs a 40 amp (500 watt hours) charger and is fine. He plays for 3 hours and hooks the charger back up and in 4 hours is back to full charge....pretty fricking simple. Yes, there are a few insane amps that idle at 1000 watts....but these are rare. Even the biggest monster D’Agostino amps idle at 480 watts each. 4000 watts class A?....who has that? Most people could get away with a single 200 amp hour battery (2500 watt hours)......that is $800 and the Inverter is $900....a 40 amp charger is $250.........My system only draws 50 watts (class D amp)......and I am running a single 33 amp hour battery and am fine. A single 100 amp hour battery is $400.....half that much for an AGM/lead acid battery. But why would you want an AGM/lead acid battery that costs hafl as much as a Lifepo4 but only lasts half as long, is more dangerous, and weighs more than twice as much? The only thing you get is less cost outlay in the beginning. Just get a Lifepo4 and be done......and what is nice about a separate inverter is that you can add as many batteries as you like......and the Giandel sounds better than Ecoflo Pro and Goal Zero Yeti 3000 and PROBABLY Bluetti, etc. etc. |
I have the Bluetti AC300 with two B300 batteries. For my system, I'll echo what others have said here: a noticeable step up in sonic quality, most notably a blacker background. I have one of those GreenWave EMI mains noise analyzers. A few measurements:
I'm guessing that "--" on the noise analyzer means less than 1. This Greenwave tool makes noise when you plug them in, and while measuring Bluetti power it's almost inaudible. |