You’re very welcome.
The solution is probably a bit overkill. It seemed like the FMC made a bigger difference before I had the etherRegen, but since there was a fiber port available--and I already had the FMC--I made use of it.
I’m going to experiment with attaching an external clock to the etherRegen next. |
If you don't want to add an extra device to the signal chain, another option is to simply replace an existing Ethernet switch with one that has an SFP slot; that is how I added fiber to my home network. This relatively cheap switch has worked great for me so far connected directly to the EtherREGEN: https://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/poe-switch/tl-sg1210p/I added an
UltraCap LPS-1.2 to my EtherREGEN this week and am happy with the improvement I hear with the limited listening time I have on it. I'm now curious if an after market DC cable will make any difference compared to the stock one that comes with it. Have any folks swapped the cable and heard a difference? Ghent Audio and Audio Sensibility both make DC cables that look tempting to try with it. There of course is the option to replace the AC cable feeding the LPS power supply too; it never ends... :) |
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The concept of jitter misleads people into thinking that all you need in a digital signal is the correct bits (which is relatively trivial to transmit) with great timing (low jitter), and so all you need is a great clock. This simplistic view is highly misleading. At least three things matter - the clock, noise and bandwidth. In a perfect square wave, the horizontal axis is time and the vertical axis is voltage. Assuming the clock is perfect – i.e. the vertical signal lines occur at perfectly spaced intervals (the bit rate). Assume when the signal is representing a binary 0, it is at 0v. Assume when the signal is representing a binary 1, it is at 1v. And we will assume that the receiver of this signal decides that the transition between a 0 and a 1 has occurred when the signal rises through the 0.5v level, and that a 1 has transitioned to a 0 when the signal falls through the 0.5v level. Now imagine that there is noise added to the signal. If the frequency of the noise is below the bitrate then this perfect square wave swims on top of a longer and smoother wave. The interesting point is that the timing between data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged. So no problem, yet. If the frequency of the noise is above the bitrate then the horizontal lines get fuzzy. And if we combine the low frequency noise with the high frequency noise the effect is combined. Again, the interesting point to note is that the timing between the data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged provided the noise is not extremely high. So, again, no problem. Noise, on its own (as long as the deviations caused are materially below 0.5v) is not a problem. The reason it is not a problem is those vertical lines, because noise does not change the space between them.
Now imagine there is no noise. Zero noise is impossible, but something else that is impossible is the vertical line on the square wave, since it requires infinite bandwidth. The vertical lines imply the signal can achieve 0v and 1v in more or less the same instant. Whatever tools we have to transmit a signal, the demands of high bit-rate signals are way beyond what the available tools can deliver. Think about how your analog cables can mess with sound up to around 20kHz, and then think about the enormously wider frequency range required of a digital cable (and, optical cables just have a different set of problems, mainly related to reflections). The higher the bit rate the harder it gets. When we allow for constrained bandwidth, instead of transitions being instantaneous, the signal goes up a slope when transitioning from 0v to 1v, and down a slope when transitioning from 1v to 0v. If the bandwidth was the same as the bitrate then the signal would be a sine wave. To reasonably square out the signal you need to add several harmonics of the bitrate (say 7 or more) above the bitrate, and that is a lot of bandwidth - even more for higher bit rate signals. By adding harmonics, the sine wave begins to square out. Interestingly, in both of these constrained-bandwidth examples, the transitions through 0.5v are still perfectly spaced – even with the sine wave. So still no problem.
So far, so good. Everything in line with Amir's crew.
But as I mentioned, a higher bitrate signal (if you think high bitrate files must always sound better) requires even more bandwidth to square out the wave, and so in a system that has a finite limit on bandwidth, a lower bitrate signal will be more accurately represented than a high bitrate signal. On top of that, if you ask anything in a music server to work faster, it will work with less precision and this is a key trade-off to be aware of when you assume higher bit rates must be better, just because the numbers are bigger. These examples only allow us to conclude that there is no problem if we can achieve zero noise or infinite bandwidth. But each of those goals is unattainable, and the problem becomes apparent when there is both noise and constrained bandwidth. So what happens if we add a low frequency noise component to a frequency-constrained digital audio signal? All of sudden, the 0.5v points are shifted right or left by the addition of the low frequency noise that lifts or drops the signal between bits. Shifting the slopes up or down shifts the 0.5v points left or right. The greater the amplitude of the noise, and the greater the bandwidth constraint, the greater is the effect on timing (jitter).
Now if we add high frequency noise to a frequency-constrained signal you can see that the transition timing at precisely 0.5v is now hard to discern for any digital receiver. If the signal is vertical at the transition then noise does not affect it. But as soon as the transition is not vertical then noise changes the transition point. It is the combination of constrained bandwidth and noise that inevitably creates jitter (variation in data transition timing), regardless of how great the clock is.
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LOL!! Tested!! This thing got “tested” a year before it was launched from the the Flat Earth Society (otherwise known as ASR), and it was concluded it does nothing. Way before it was even built |
I’ve doubted the added value of an EtherRegen. The setup is Ethernet to a Senore ultraRendu powered by an UpTone Audio LPS with USB to an Ayre QB-9 DSD. I think the QB-9 is supposed to handle jitter. Is that doubt justified? |
‘Is that doubt justified?” The million dollar question with audio.
Basically I see this as two potential solutions, not just EtherRegen, but anything audio:
1) Try one for myself. Then I will know if it works for me or not. Whatever I try, I make sure there is no risk. Or at least just a small cost for returning (I.e shipping back, or some venders have restocking fees)
2) Do not try one at all. Save my money
As dumb as this logic sounds, it ultimately always comes down to trying or not trying. And admittedly, there are many things that I have “doubts” about, not just audio, but all things life. The majority of these I never try, but I don’t rush all over Internet to read (then write) why that thing I never tried is such a bad idea, snake oil, etc. I just leave it alone, forget about it. But maybe that is just me. |
thyname, an alternate to empiricism is reasoning based on knowledge about the operation of a device. If I trust that the Ayre QB-9 DSD asynchronous USB handles jitter then it seems reasonable to doubt that I need another piece of equipment to handle jitter without trying it. |
Then you got your answer: do NOT try it. Simple, end of story. Hit the ignore button on this thread and subject. What brings you back here over and over? |
thyme, over and over? I believe my two posts to this thread are my only posts re the EtherRegen. I'm sorry if they offended you. |
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Love my ER. Adding a LPS steps it up and adding fiber brings it up again and adding a clock almost brings it to heaven. |
I bought an English Electric 8Switch a couple of weeks ago. It's a good thing that the dealer offered a 45 day return policy. Not only did I not notice any improvement in sound quality, I felt that it made my music sound more veiled and dark, as if some of the vibrancy (not be confused with bright/harsh/etched; I know what that sounds like) was told to sit in a corner and face the wall. I tried it for almost 2 weeks but didn't notice any improvements. So it went back to the dealer.
Is there anyone who has compared the 8Switch to EtherRegen? Not sure if I should try it out before giving up on the idea of an audiophile-grade switch. |
I have both. I like them both but they are different. In my system the EE just made the sound sweeter and easier to listen to. I use the ER with fiber and an external clock and it strips away layers of noise, adds blackness. The ER with clock has a much more profound improvement, however if I take out the EE there is enough of a drop off I put it back.
The EE is on an Uptone JS-2 LPS, the ER is on an Uptone LPS1.2 powered by the JS-2. Removing all the SMPS's in my system, even the meanwell I had on the LPS 1.2 dropped the noise noticably.
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Tone in a review is irrelevant; only logic is. That’s what I take @djones51 to be saying. And what @amir_asr to be saying in his review.
I was very interested in the EtherRegen because of what Hans B. and others had to say, but the ASR logic is pretty compelling. Here’s one bit of it:
"Perhaps the biggest issue with claims of audio improvement is that your DAC is so far removed from Ethernet that little you can do upstream can impact it. Ethernet has a clock but that is used for communication on the wire. Once a packet (chunk) of data arrives, it is put in memory in the operating system. At that point, it no longer has any timing information much less a clock. It is the responsibility of the application to associate timing with it. And such software notion either works, or doesn’t. If it doesn’t your music will stop or drop out. None of that timing has any relationship whatsoever with the clock that the DAC eventually uses to play data sent to it. It is the audio application together with the DAC (and or Operating System) which determine timing."
If I’m understanding the issue, based upon how the tcp/ip data transmission works, timing is irrelevant; in other words, the receiving device buffers the data until it is certain it has been received correctly.
Consider this explanation for TCP:
"TCP provides applications with a reliable, in-order stream abstraction.
The network doesn’t.
So TCP has to do various things to ensure that it delivers payload in order.
That includes acknowlegements, retransmissions, and reordering.
Now, most networks do try to keep things in order, but TCP can’t assume that.
For example, even if the network does not reorder, if there are two possible paths, one shorter than the other, and for some reason we have been using the long one… if the route changes to the short one, briefly we can have packets in flight on both, and they’ll arrive out of order. This is normal, it happens occasionally, and TCP has to deal with it."
[https://qr.ae/pvBFJz]
Those who get angry or say "you have to listen to hear it" are welcome to their impressions. They are sure they hear something. But just as the mind begins to hallucinate in an anechoic chamber, the mind also listen for certain effects in order to match its own predilections. Nothing satisfies like satisfaction, right?
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It’s interesting to read the different opinions on the EtherRegen in this thread. I noticed no difference whatsoever but perhaps it will work for you? One question for owners: the unit has a provision for grounding. Has anyone tried this and noticed improvement?
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@hilde45 I've been in this game long enough to understand and believe the logic of specifications and theroreticals, especially in regard to streaming. And this is gone into in much greater depth over at audiophilestyle.com forum. The arguments go back and forth, but I can only say I often observe open minded obectivists try a tried and true streaming upgrade, hear the improvement and come over to the 'dark' side. Not sure I've seen a single instance of subjectivist moving to objectivist camp.
Not a surprise that any particular component that works for one individual doesn't for another, doesn't prove component ineffective. This especially true in streaming setups which are almost universally unique.
I've seen so many opposing technical explanations for why any particular streaming component should or shouldn't work, and I've seen these disagreements go deep in the weeds far past my level of expertise. In general terms all these arguments come to a draw for me, so I go to my perception or senses to determine for myself which direction to take. My take is I'm not trying to please a measuring bot or someone who professes to be the objectivist king, I'm into audio to please myself, provide music listening pleasure only for myself. I don't care if someone believe me delusional, and tells me not to believe my senses. What a terrible place to live, always doubting one's own senses, especially when it comes to something as benign as pleasuring oneself with audio system sound quality! One can understand and be mindful that our senses can be faulty, but that's for far more important things than evaluating sound quality of audio systems! I don't understand how some people get any pleasure from audio what with always worrying about some other's judgement of their choices! I say trust your senses, the worst that can happen is you waste some money, at least you won't suffer from inadequacy!
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I have one of these now and am very happy with it. I have to say that the ASR negative review was key in my decision to buy it. A negative review from ASR is proving to be a very positive indicator.
Jerry
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The Er is wonderful, it gets even better with a fine LPS and a good master clock.
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I’ve used the ER with a 10mhz clock and a Hynes SR7 power supply. It is a nice product, but unfortunately has been unstable with drop outs and disconnects in my application. As mentioned in another thread, instability may occur in combination with a J-CAT Net Femto EN card. As that card adds more performance than the ER in my application, I have retired the ER. Looking forward to the next version of ER in 2023.
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Lance lock ,they are coming out with a even better model in 6 weeks ,
but it is a good product it does take about 150 hours to runin the clocks
you can also hook up a Sfp fiber optic module which lowers noise even more .
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