Has anyone tried the Uptone a Audio EtherRegen? I just got it delivered, hooked it up between my ethernet connection and my Bridge II on the PS Audio DS DAC. This device reclocks and cleans ups the digital signal. I’m fairly stupid when it comes to all things digital but what I’m hearing is a huge difference. There is an immediate improvement, lowering the noise floor to reveal clarity. The bass in tight and powerful. My first impression says it’s worth every penny of the $640.
At a glance, I read the product website and find it very confusing. Network switches normally have nothing to do with sound quality, they merely provide additional ports for data connections.
Seems its labeled an audiophile switch because it does some reclocking and jitter reduction prior to the DAC. There are other devices that do that as their sole function providing various digital audio (not computer) connection types and are not necessarily switches providing additional physical connections, , but a network switch that does that also.... sure why not.
If you hear a difference in detail/noise level, seems to be that would likely be because the device is reducing jitter prior to the DAC which I think is the main benefit claimed. That is always a good thing if so.
Some modern DACs like Benchmark have effective reclocking/jitter reduction processing built in. Many others not.
The price is not bad if the device in fact does a good job at jitter reduction.
If it were me, I would ideally want jitter reduction to occur within the DAC itself. The further upstream that occurs prior, the more chance of jitter getting introduced again prior to the DAC which is where it matters. NEtork connections usually go to streaming devices not DACs, however of course most streaming devices have a DAC built in which I think would be best in the case of this device. If an external DAC were used with the streamer, jitter could get reintroduced between streamer and DAC. COuld happen within a streamer with built in DAC as well. That’s why I think it best for jitter reduction to be handled immediate prior to the A/D conversion that is the prime function of a DAC.
...although its beyond me how any "noise"/jitter reduction can be done on a network connection to a streamer and persist on to the DAC.
Mystery to me there......maybe I’ll read the product site some more when I get some time.
I suppose its possible better switches provide a better signal to the streaming device attached to the network which perhaps might make the network card or other circuits work less and produce less noise there, kinda similar in theory to how some USB attached devices might produce less noise streaming which might help there. In that case the results would likely vary widely from one streamer device to another and do more in some cases than others, perhaps nothing in some as well.
Very hard to predict.....
Does not sound like it would substitute for a good jitter resistent DAC though.
Does seem you pay a premium for this versus other network switches, not so much perhaps versus reclocking devices that are only used for computer audio applications between streamer and external DAC, but those do seem totally different.
I use and prefer wireless connections only for computer audio, no wired ethernet. Wireless connections, assuming proper bandwidth, work very well in regards to noise (dead quiet) and overall quality I find because your streamer or computer has no wired network connection to anything. I’d say wires are best avoided whenever possible to help isolate devices and minimize noise and for best possible sound quality, assuming adequate bandwidth which is not an issue with WIfi I find these days for either audio and/or even most video streaming.
Hey @mapman --- this is not about "jitter reduction". It is about reducing leakage (both high-impedance and low-impedance) and reducing clock phase-noise. Read more carefully, it's all up there. Better yet, try it for yourself! Without trying, everything is just a theory
OK but there is no clock involved with a network connection, only with a digital audio connection to DAC where the digital signal is converted to analog to make the time-based signal for music.
Granted any computer devices can generate more or less noise as it does it’s work so that can come into play on any computer or streaming device.
Like I said, I will stick to wireless network connections to avoid noise from network wires altogether, so I have no need for this.
In any case I do not have time or money to try things unless I understand the theory or basis for which something works and how that would apply to my particular case, but that’s just me.
Gotta decide what to try or not somehow. Hunches alone don’t cut it for me. People determine all kinds of things "sound better" to them....who has time and money to try everything?
And that’s perfectly fine. Your money, your decision. I realize six hundred buck may be a lot of money for some. All good.
There is definitely clock involved in network digital transmission. And there is also definitely clock involved with a USB connection. I don't think people realize that the USB and network signal does not get reclocked by the DAC. What they reclock on the DAC is the audio signal that is transported via Ethernet then USB. This has also independent of the isolation of the DAC.
Then there is also leakage current. Low impedance and high impedance. All the crap that goes on in your network leaks into your audio.
Wifi on the other hand introduces other issues. There in an antenna to get that signal, and that antenna, along with its (likely) crap PSU, May introduce its own electrical noise / interfere/ leakage current.
All is good here, listening to a lot of music these days. Since I’m not an engineer, I won’t be giving any satisfactory reasons for the better sound except those indispensable tools, my ears. Like you say perhaps reclocking, reduced jitter, noise, I don’t exactly know for sure. I hope you and your family are safe.
Jitter and clock phase noise are different ways of quantifying the same phenomenon. Jitter is measurement in time, phase noise is in frequency. Mathematically the relationship is quantified so engineers designing digital components, DACs, ADCs can filter the jitter/phase noise. Modern DACs even cheap ones do a good job of this. Of course this is information in the packets it has nothing to do with the clock in the ethernet wire, once the packet arrives that timing is gone the packets are then in memory. Only the clock embedded in the signal works with the DACs clock.
this is not about "jitter reduction". It is about reducing leakage (both high-impedance and low-impedance) and reducing clock phase-noise.
Dow Jones: Your Google Machine works! But that’s about the extent of your knowledge.
I cannot help but observe: have you counted the number of your posts in this thread, on a product that you have zero interest in trying for yourself? Like that other thread. And the one before that. And on so on. Why? Nothing to do sunshine? Dude! Get a hobby. Take up sewing for example 😂🤦♂️
No, clock only comes into play at the DAC where the bits must be converted at the right time to make an analog signal that represents the music.
All bits on the network are the same and protocols ensure all bits get transmittted 100% correctly. If not then there is a defect. No network based application like your browser accessing a remote website could work at all otherwise.
My understanding is that noise introduced in the Signal to the DAC can affect the timing needed to convert to analog ie make sure the bits get converted to analog and transmitted downstream at the right time. Jitter is the measurement used to quantify that error. Noise might be introduced anywhere upstream on the device,network, or other devices in the circuit. and make its way to the signal input to the DAC. But the point is wired or wireless the bits make it 100% correctly across the network always unless there is a defect in the chain somewhere. Its the D/A process where normal noise levels can have an effect by not converting the right things at the right time which results in audible effects if beyond a certain magnitude. Dacs like Benchmark that reclock address that problem in exactly the right place immediately prior to conversion.
So I am not saying this device cannot make a difference. Rather, that results likely vary case to case and there are ways to address any negative effects optimally by reclocking properly in the DAC prior to conversion. Also wireless connections do not suffer from the same noise issues as devices in a wired circuit. Not to say anything is perfect though.
I mention Benchmark mainly as a vendor that has blazed trails and implemented a widely acclaimed reference model for getting things right ie addressing jitter where it matters most, when the digital signal is comverted to analog. Many DACS even for modest cost do a very good job of this these days whereas this was not the case say 5-10 years ago.
I appreciate the tone of your post. With all due respect, you don’t get it. Let me repeat it: DAC reclocks the audio signal. Network and USB signal, that carries the audio signal, do NOT get reclocked by the DAC In other words digital signal is represented by a electrical pulse which can be affected by emi/rfi and the like that causes jitter before and after received by the network player so the reclocker (does just that) reclocks the signal and sends the better signal to the dac. The dac clock can only preserve what's received and hence can't correct the signal received. As it receives a better signal then produces a improved sound. If you believe that any “competently designed” DAC (a cheap $50 China DAC for example, that ASR mob says measures really good), magically solves any issues upstream (streamer, network, USB path), then so be it. Keep that Magic DAC Special Edition MK4, and be happy with it being fed crap. You are missing out.
Peace out. I have said enough. I am not sure why I am spending my time trying to convince someone that cannot possibly be convinced, let alone be curious to try
Networks and USB carry only the electric signal needed to represent the bits. Computer protocols used assure each bit is transmitted and received 100% accurately. Otherwise no application that relies on them could work at all. There is no audio signal. Just the parts needed to construct an audio signal downstream (by the DAC).
The DAC is where the bits are assembled and used to create an analog signal that represents the music. To do that the right bits must be converted at exactly the right time. Some DACs do this much better than others but the technology to do it well is readily available for modest cost in many but not all cases these days.
Noise in the signal used directly by the D2A process can have a negative effect in the resulting sound. Less noise in the electric circuit is always a good thing. With a wireless connection, the streaming device and associated DAC , the devices actually involed in producing the " music signal" are isolated from any noise in the wired portion of the network out to the internet, etc.
I have had since early January. I would say that is the best bang for the buck upgrade that you will ever make. This was confirmed by 2 other experienced audiophiles. Both have purchased an ER. If you haven’t heard it and make negative comments, then I would say that is the definition of ignorance. They offer a money back guarantee, but I’ll bet 90% would keep it. I had to listen to my music collection again and it was much more engaging. That’s how much of a difference this switch made.
One of these days (post social distancing now?) I will make it down finally to hear your stuff.
It looks like you have nothing but some of the best gear I have heard running down there these days and a lot of solid thought and research went into it.
Frankly, I fear if I hear your setup, upgrade fever could set in. That can be expensive! 😳
Jitter and clock phase noise are different ways of quantifying the same phenomenon. Jitter is measurement in time, phase noise is in frequency. Mathematically the relationship is quantified so engineers designing digital components, DACs, ADCs can filter the jitter/phase noise. Modern DACs even cheap ones do a good job of this.
@djones51
Congratulations you added something to the thread that I can agree with. The jitter reduction ultimately occurs at the DAC although it's done so by controlling "pollution" of the DAC from the switch.
This switch bang for the buck is only beaten by the late Tim Mrocks total contact in my experience. Well recorded live music events on you tube , mind blowing sound quality in my system with this switch. Tonight I'm listening to Hauser playing with many guests in an amphitheatre in Pula. Wow! amazing acoustics! Amazing music.
The jitter reduction ultimately occurs at the DAC although it’s done so by controlling "pollution" of the DAC from the switch.
Yes, so as long as the DAC does its job the amount of "pollution" is not relevant unless it causes dropouts or stuttering. Simple test hook up the device if the DAC works without problems fine, now remove the device if the DAC still works without problems then there isn’t enough "pollution" on your wire to matter. It’s actually the software in the streamer that deals with the IP/TCP from the switch. The DAC and streamer software or /OS negotiate the clock not the switch and DAC.
"droberson02, isn’t audiosciencereview actually the opposite of pseudo science? They’re actually quantifying w/ measurements, or at least attempting to, while the other camp’s argument is "well it sounds better to my ears you cant measure emotion etc" I have no dog in this fight as I believe measurements aren’t everything but just thought that was kind of an ironic statement"
Sure there’s a middle ground, but it’s a misrepresentation to say that if you don’t believe in someone’s measurements, and interpretation of those measurements, that you’re relying on emotion. Part of science is empirical evidence with repeatable results, to observe and classify, even if you can’t completely explain things. Pseudo-science boxes you in to a limited set of conclusions. Just my opinion after many years of experience in audiophilia, most recently with a very high-end server that made a huge difference, while so many asserted it couldn’t (they’re such experts you know ;).
Not that the "other camp" couldn’t measure and quantify; I believe they could. But at some point you have to prioritize limited time. That said, I noticed someone attached Swenson’s white paper, which does explain some things.
It's not very productive to see such a divided crowd regarding this devise. Some people get benefit from it and a few others try to explain how it cannot possibly work. Kind of leaves me with having to try it on loan, or money back guarantee.
I bought one used and when I installed it I did not notice an obvious difference right off the bat. But I have to say my system is sounding better than ever. I think the improvements are subtle, but everything adds up. I'm not getting rid of it.
I bought one and tried it for 30 days (actually, more like 40). The results,for me, in my system, were unsatisfactory. It did seem to offer more detail, but at the expense of warmth, harmonic richness, and musicality. Alex told me I was only the third person to ask for a refund, so obviously I’m swimming against the tide here. He was kind enough to return my money, and was a gentleman about it. YMMV.
Yes, it did alter the sound, just not in a direction I liked. But again, I was only one in three (at the time) to return it, so I'm definitely in the minority.
If you want dead quiet streaming, go with a fiber network provider. If you have a copper internet provider, you can clean up the signal to your computer/streamer by using the Ethernet-to-fiber converter then the fiber-to-Ethernet converter for much cheaper with the same benefits. For me, I don’t have the computer in the audio room and I use the network interface on my dac, so if I didn’t have my 1G fiber network, I would use this Ethernet-to-fiber conversion technique in front of the dac
Sent mine back today as in my system the sound became forced, bright, more glare, upper mids were too lively. After 72 hours I had to remove it and I found my ears were at ease again. I know others had great results, but I guess my system does not play well with it.
Mojo Audio Evo maxed out Innuos Zenith 3 with upgrades Sabon ethernet cables
I just purchased one today so it will be interesting to try it out; hopefully I'll get it in a couple of days.
My switch supports both fiber and copper so I'll start out with the copper cable and then jump to the fiber to see if I hear any difference between the two, along with the primary comparison relative to my switch straight to my streamer. Adding an extra box isn't ideal, but I like the idea in theory at least of decoupling my noisy equipment (NAS, NUC running Roon, switch, etc.) from the input of my streamer (which along with the rest of my audio system is on a dedicated AC line. Anyhow, time will tell...
I've been using a Regen since August. It's in series between a SOtM-modified hub and a SOtM trifecta into an Esoteric K-01X, all synchronized to a 10mhz rubidium clock. In my application the Regen improves things, extending LF authority and adding warmth and suppleness to the midrange and treble. No brittleness. The outboard clock and a Zerozone 9V linear PS are worthwhile improvements.
The only thing I don't like about the Regen is that it periodically hangs and needs to be rebooted, particularly when the network server is initially powered up.
I sent mine back asking them to test it as cymbals became splashy and harsh. Music took on an electronic character. Perhaps something was wrong with mine? They say 5 out of 1800 units have been returned. My wife and I could easily hear this negative impact on our music. Let’s see what Uptone says once they get my unit back.
I found mine hardened and made things harsh for a few days, but then it settled in. Sounds great now and am very happy with the purchase. I’m still surprised how something like this can make such an impact on sound.
Update. I unboxed my Regen which was headed back to give it another try. I changed the power cord in it, plugged it into a conditioner, and changed the order of various ethernet csbles I have.
I like the sound better now and will give it more days to break in fully.
I've got maybe ~70hrs on my Regen and overall I'm happy with it and call the purchase a success. For me it has been incremental changes which all add up to make a nice improvement. The flexibility it allows in setting things up is a big bonus in my eyes.
1) Just dropping the unit into my system and moving the 5M generic Cat6 cable from my Bricasti M5 to the Regen and adding in another generic Cat6 patch cable to connect to the M5 I heard a small but noticeable improvement.
2) I then was able to finally use my high quality 1.5M Ethernet Cable for the last run to the M5 and again another small improvement.
3) Lastly I swapped out the 15M Cat6 with 15M of fiber and yet another small improvement. My audio system is on its own dedicated AC line and now by switching to fiber to the Regen I've cut an electrical connection to my noisy digital equipment all spread throughout the house (e.g. NAS, NUC running Roon Rock, Ethernet Switch, etc...).
I'm using the stock Regen switching power-supply but at least have it plugged into a different AC circuit than the one feeding my other audio equipment. My last Regen related tweak will be to try a linear power supply sometime in the future.
For fun, try swapping the cables between the A and B ports and see if you hear a difference (e.g. swap the clean and dirty sides of the Regen) :)
I can see why. It does increase the apparent amount of detail and inner detail of your system. Brings you closer into the recording and performers for sure. Will you and your system like this? Depends as usual.
I've had the Regan for about 4 months now. It made a big difference in the soundstage and detail. I then upgraded to a Paul Hynes SR4T power supply. It again made a difference in the blackness and detail. There is a always a law of diminishing returns, and I still think the return was good the money. The last change I made was adding a Sonore Optical Deluxe with Finisar adapters. It made a audible difference. It made a bigger difference than SOtM switch I had purchased. I sold it as it wasn't worth the money, give you could buy a Regan and Sonore for the same price. The combination of the two out performs the switch, for less cost. I should point out that there are many system that you might not hear the difference. I really matters how much detail you streamer and DAC can pick up. For the streamer, I'm using an Auralic Aries G2 and for my DAC, a Denafrips Terminator.
Lance: I was asking about the English Engineering 8Switch that @anzaanimalclinic had purchased. In addition to the EtherRegen he already had. It sounds like he is cascading them
I’m also a fan of the etherRegen. I use a fiber media converter to run fiber into the etherRegen and then use a Supra Cat 8 cable out of the etherRegen and into the Zenith Mk.3.
The sum of these changes made a big difference.
I'm still using the stock power supply, curious what an LPS can do.
Once you have all the components, the config looks like this:
Ethernet into the FMC Fiber out of the FMC and into the etherRegen. Ethernet out of the B side of the etherRegen and into your source (Zenith in my case).
Small Green Computer also offers and "audiophile" version of the FMC, which I haven’t used so can’t offer any insight.
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