Upgrading my streaming/digital system- what would make the most sense?

When I was running ROON core on a MAC mini the soundstage was pancake flat. My little Bryston BDP Pi sounded better going directly to my music server and playing RadioParadise at 16/48 resolution. Upgraded to and SGC ST i5 and now ROON sounds as good as the Pi.

I would like to improve my digital chain and I’d like to get your feedback on which component(s) are worth upgrading first. I would like to get a more natural/organic sound and more naturally layered soundstage. Don’t get me wrong, it sounds good but there is a bit of digital haze ( I think the blacks could be blacker and spatial cues could be more present- thus the somewhat flat presentation), and at times the music sounds a little artificial, albeit very clean.
I use Roon to stream Tidal and Qobuz and the digital audio chain consists of ethernet cable> switch (basic cisco)> 2 ethernet cables
> Macmini (roon core)
> Moon 280d with Mind2 bridge (roon endpoint

Problem child could be the ESS moon dac... Do a lil experiment and get a Schiit Bifrost multibit (has a 14 day return period). If the Schiit took the fake away and gave you a natural organic sound with a layered soundstage, etc, keep the Schiit and sell the Moon to a Moon fan....Or you could keep both dacs and use the moon instead for electronic, trance, house music, etc (for dancing the night away...). If the Schiit sucked, you would have 14 days to return it and get your money back.

If I understand your setup. I would start with an upgrade to your DAC. I have lived with a Sim Moon 760? For many years… it lacked natural / musical sound. So I would definitely start there. Then you want a good streamer… of equal cost to the DAC… I am a real fan of Aurrender.

My experience of upgrading and trying to get digital to the level of analog over the last 35 plus years is that today an appropriate approximate investment level is stand alone streamer = DAC = preamp = amp. They must be carefully chosen to be of the sound type you like (detailed and fatiguing vs musical and natural) and compatible.

So I would first calculate what you should spend on the DAC and then get that first… then a streamer. I’ve used Roon, seems like a very unnecessary complication to me… but some folks like it. 

@pgastone 

So, you did not like any of advices in your thread regarding exactly the same question from over a year ago?

Search on the forum. There’s enough to degalze or glaze you over. There’s gobs. 

I have spent 3-4 years experimenting , Fiberoptic sucks some life out of the music 

these are keys buy a modem- router combo ,I bought the latest Motorola 8702 that has docsis 3.1 especially if you have separates 

get rid of the wall wart crap power supplies ,put in linear power supplies 

to the router you want something decent minimal  little green computer$299  look on bottom of router ,voltages normally 12v -4 amp 

the best one use by far is the Linear  Tube Audio LPS $750 and comes witha great DC cable that goes to the router ,others charge $150 for included$750

then buy a good Ethernet hub which I found for $600 which is very good 

and Quality Ethernet cables, and usb cables a must ,Dac is the most crucial being the sourse. And makes a big difference then a server,streamer like a innuos 

or something similar. Good digital ,like good analog cost $$ imo $10 k minimum 

I'm in the camp that the DAC is the heard of your system and you get the most bang from the buck there. 

  I'd put your core on a NUC, install ROCK and let that stand alone.  

Then spend big money upgrading your DAC.  I personally highly recommend chord DAVE and also the Chord Mscaler. But there are lots of other great DACS out there when you are willing to spend 5 digits.

Jerry

Everyone is giving you their personal experience here, but you have to wonder how many ran controlled experiments, changing just one variable at a time, listening to the same set of test tracks that cover most/all important aspects of sound quality.

I also assumed a better DAC would make the most impact, but after running about 5 DACs and 5 server/streamers through my system, I found the server/streamer made the most difference.  I ended up with a Grimm Audio MU1.  The Grimm performs a lot of functions to clean up the analog wave that carries the digital signal, so the router and switch quality became much less important.

For the DAC, I finally picked a Chord Dave, which I was able to pick up used.  The Grimm includes the equivalent of an M-Scaler, so you don’t need that.

Think of the server/streamer as the turntable and cartridge and that helps the process.

@dougthebiker I have an Innuos Zenith MK3 but you've got me reading up on the MU1. I too have the DAVE.   If I sold my Innuos and M-scaler, it would almost fund the Grimm.  What $5k streamers did you compare the Grimm to?

  I could also offload my NUC core which would clean up my rack.  

Jerry

The closest contender was the Innuos Pulsar.  Also tried the T+A MA 200 which was a bit edgy in the treble no matter what I paired it with.  The EVO 432 Aeon was almost as refined as the Pulsar.  Nothing else was much better than my old Innuos Zen Mk3.

 I also am unloading my old NUC.

Surprisingly, the Grimm made my old Schiit Yggy sound about twice as good.

I used to output USB from my IMac to my DAC... Sounded OK to me. Then I got a SOtM SMS200 Ultra network streamer to feed my DAC. Everything opened up more and became both better controlled and Wider/Deeper at the same time.

Every once and awhile, I got back to iMac > USB > Dac for a few days to reconfirm the rightness of my now 4-year old choice. And it has always been a joy to return to the streamer. The iMac still runs the Roon Core, but the music comes via the SMS 200 ultra via the network. I also now use HQ Player and the SOtM comes stock the the HQP NAA built in.

I’m very happy with the SOtM streamer, but more than that I am just recommending the addition of a network streamer/bridge of sufficient quality rather than feeding your DAC from your Mac Mini.

Thank for this.
I hace started seriously considering upgrading what feeds the dac particularly as many more upgades have to come to the market since the last time I was looking into this as KNOCK1 pointed out.  And was looking to hear what others have experienced in their own systems.
I would love to try a GRIMM but I have $4-5k budget- so this well outside my means.  But I will look at some less costly alternatives- any suggestions?
I has considered a Small Green Computer with an ultrarendu but maybe I should consider a higher level solution.
Just out of curiosity, is a card/bridge as I have in the Moon, a solution that others like Bricast or PS Audio (previous dac) also offer, a major compromise to a separate streamer?

If the Grimm is beyond your budget, I would recommend the Innuos Pulse.  If you need it to be a server, too, the Innuos Zenith Mk3 would probably make you very happy.

Thank you!
I will definitely look into that.
In fact, along with the Innous I have started researching Lumin (U2/U2 mini), Auralic (Aries G2.1).  If I am not mistaken, and I might well be as I find that often the product websites are not as clear as they could be, the advantage of the Innos Zenith is that I would have it working as both a roon core/server AND as a streamer.   This would mean being able to replace my Macmini and adding a streamer rather than having to upgrade the server as well and adding a streamer. The other brands mentioned above, as far as I can tell thus far, offer streamers only, or streaming dacs, or all in one solutions (server, streamer, and dac). 
I understand that keeping all functions separate is probably the higher quality solution butt the Innous Zenith seems to be a well reviewed so I assume that the inherent compromise of having server/streamer is fairly limited (within the constraints of my budget).  In otther words it sounds like a potentially good solution vs replacing the Macmini and picking a good streamer.

This has all been very helpful to help me think about various upgrade paths so thank you everyone,  Now I am going to have to decide if to go for the dac upgrade first or upgrade what feeds the dac.

My personal experience: I found the biggest jump in sound quality was going from a Mac mini to a dedicated music server/streamer, which at the time was en entry level Aurender. My current server/streamer is an Innuos Zenith Mk 3, I'm using the Innuos Sense music app as I find it sounds better than Roon on the Zenith. 

I also have a Small Green Computer, which runs Roon for my Bluesound speakers around the house. 

The sound quality difference is noticeable between the Zenith/Sense and the Small Green Computer/Roon in my main system. 

the advantage of the Innos Zenith is that I would have it working as both a roon core/server AND as a streamer. This would mean being able to replace my Macmini and adding a streamer rather than having to upgrade the server as well and adding a streamer.

Given your specific situation this makes a helluva lotta sense, and I agree having the streamer and server in the same box is a relatively small compromise (if it even is a compromise, which I have my doubts all things considered) that comes with a big dose of convenience and simplicity. Seems like it very effectively solves all your issues in one box, and as mentioned their Sense app is highly regarded for both usability and sound quality and is continually being improved/upgraded even further, and to top it off their customer service is top notch if ever needed. Handwriting would seem to be on the wall here.

You may have just pushed me over the line!
I am very much leaning this way the more I think about it.

+1 @soix 

As usual, soix has the best advice :)

I owned an Innuos Zenith MK3 and thoroughly enjoyed it. A used specimen goes for around $3200-3500 nowadays -- maybe even less since they have introduced the Pulsar line. Consider what you're getting for the money ...

- Built-in Roon Core server; can easily switch back and forth between Roon and their proprietary Sense software. No need to buy a separate Roon server.

- The SQ of their proprietary Sense software, IMO, is noticeably better than Roon.

- At least 1TB of SSD -- great for downloading hi-res or DSD music; no need for a separate NAS

- Built-in CD ripper which is fast and easy to use

Lastly, I know there are folks who are very skeptical of tweaks, but I can speak from experience that replacing the stock fuse with Synergistic Research Purple fuse was quite a shocker. The jump in SQ was phenomenal. It's only $200 and comes with a 30-day money back guarantee. Don't ask me how a mere fuse can do this, but you have to try it to believe it.

Too many unneeded parts.  
 

get a dCS Bartok streaming dac.   You can go directly into the Pass power amp.  If you really want to hear analog sounding digital streams go listen to one of the dCS streamer dacs.   Be prepared to be pleased.  There are used Bartoks for reasonable prices.  Roon just gets in the way.  
 

michael